WiFi under Linux - rant no 7

Discussion in 'Linux Networking' started by Timothy Murphy, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. Timothy Murphy

    Dan C Guest

    Repeat as long as necessary until you understand it:
    Linux isn't Windoze!
    Who ties your shoes for you in the morning?
     
    Dan C, Mar 17, 2006
    #21
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  2. Timothy Murphy

    Unruh Guest

    This is unfair. No it is not, however his objection was not that Linux was
    not windows but that Linux did not make setting up his wifi card easy. Now
    many people do find it easy under Linux, so it is not generic. But with his
    particular computer, his particular distribution, and his particular wifi
    card he did not find it easy.



    Probably true, although that is very very distribution dependent.


    Are you arguing that Linux SHOULD make it difficult? That making it easy is
    somehow against the spirit of Linux? I would disagree.

    The problem is as usual that under WIndows the manufacturers spend a lot of
    time and effort making sure that their cards operate easily under Windows.
    They do not do so under Linux. This makes the Linux job harder. On the
    other hand the user probably does not care if it is harder for the writer.

    So, choices are.
    a) Use Windows.
    b) Use Linux but spend the extra effort for your particular card to get it
    to work
    c) Use Linux and spend time and efforting helping to make setting up
    wireless under Linux easy for others.

    Note that under Windows if it does not work out of the box, you are SOOL.
    There is nothing else you can do. Under Linux there is.
     
    Unruh, Mar 17, 2006
    #22
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  3. Timothy Murphy

    Keith Keller Guest

    Fine--I apologize for the initial misunderstanding, but you don't seem
    to be getting my main point, which is that whinging about how much help
    you did or did not get from ''Linux'' is not helpful to anybody. If you
    have specific issues with a particular wifi wizard, talk to them! Tell
    them what you saw, what you didn't, and what specific improvements they
    could make, and how else you could help. Ranting here, where the
    particular software maintainers may or may not read, doesn't help much,
    and ranting about ''Linux'' helps even less.
    That's indeed true. If you care about attracting linux newbies to using
    linux, you should find a wifi project and offer to help. That help
    could be just doing testing or helping write docs--it doesn't have to be
    coding. But ranting is not helping those newbies get their wifi working.

    --keith
     
    Keith Keller, Mar 17, 2006
    #23
  4. Timothy Murphy

    Dan C Guest

    No. Where'd you get that idea? My meaning was that it is as hard as it
    is, and that's the way it is. For me, wifi in Linux is easy.
    I certainly agree with (a) and (b). Choice (c), however is entirely
    optional, in keeping with the spirit of Linux. There is no requirement
    for it to be easy for anyone.
    Agreed.
     
    Dan C, Mar 17, 2006
    #24
  5. Had no problems either.

    d) Get a clue stick.
    Indeed and even if things work, you aren't supposed to ever know
    why/how.
     
    Michael Heiming, Mar 17, 2006
    #25
  6. I hope Bill Gates pays you well for this sort of thing.
     
    Timothy Murphy, Mar 17, 2006
    #26
  7. Timothy Murphy

    Unruh Guest

    ??? Linux is not a law of the universe. Things created by man CAN be
    improved. Making it easier to use wifi in Linux is not an invalid desire.
    And pointing out how it could be made easier ( whether it is by pointing
    out other systems in whichit is easier in exactly the way desired is a way
    of pointing out how it could be made easier) is also not invalid.

    However ranting (see the title) I agree helps noone. And claiming that it
    is somehow inherently difficulty in Linux not only does not help but is
    false as well, as you and I and others have pointed out.

    It was a choice, not an obligation. When you itemize choices the
    individual things to choose between are by definition optional.
     
    Unruh, Mar 17, 2006
    #27
  8. Timothy Murphy

    Dan C Guest

    Who's Bill Gates, and why would he be paying me?

    The point of the previous post was to make you realize that there is a
    HUGE amount of information about your "problem" right out there on the Web
    for you to look at. It's all right there, easy to find with Google. The
    time you've wasted "ranting" about this could have been spent solving the
    problem, and you'd be happily surfing the web on wireless, right now.
    Shrug.
     
    Dan C, Mar 18, 2006
    #28
  9. Because your attitude - that Linux is meant to be difficult,
    and that any suggestions it should be made easier are misplaced -
    might be designed to put Windows users off trying Linux.
    You obviously didn't read my post very carefully.
    I don't actually have a problem, I use WiFi all the time,
    and have been doing so for years.

    My complaint is that the messages Linux gives you
    when trying to set up WiFi are very poor, and unhelpful.
     
    Timothy Murphy, Mar 18, 2006
    #29
  10. Actually, I don't think my posting was a rant,
    as promised by the title.

    As an exercise, I just tried setting up WiFi on a virgin system,
    namely from two CDs, one with Knoppix-4.0.2
    and the other with Slax-5.0.7b .

    In each case I had to take the same steps, in brief:

    iwconfig eth0 essid <my essid>
    iwconfig eth0 key <my key>
    ifconfig eth0 up
    ifconfig eth0 192.168.3.11
    route add -net 192.168.3.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 dev eth0
    route add default gw 192.168.3.1

    At each stage I verified that I was not connected until the last step.

    My point is that in all this I never received any hint
    as to the likely next step required,
    although this would have been known to "Linux".
     
    Timothy Murphy, Mar 18, 2006
    #30
  11. Should be connected to local network now.
    This is already set as the default.
    This gives you wider connectivity.
    You knew a few things, too. In addition to the things "known" to linux,
    you knew the essid, key, an available ip address, and the default route.
    This is a simple illustration that the fallback to the "worst" case is
    still fairly simple. Some of your commands can be combined and/or
    scripted. A dhcp server on your network would also eliminate a few
    commands. The simplest case without the wizard (or a HAL 9000):

    # iwconfig eth0 essid <your essid> key <my key>
    # dhcpcd -t 10 -d eth0
     
    Douglas Mayne, Mar 18, 2006
    #31
  12. [x] send patch.

    [..]
     
    Michael Heiming, Mar 18, 2006
    #32
  13. Timothy Murphy

    Dan C Guest

    On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:11:43 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:

    There may be some truth in there, somewhere. I do think that if someone
    is so completely lazy that he won't do ANY research or troubleshooting on
    his own, than he shouldn't be using Linux. Yes, I do believe that.

    Then do something about it. Write a GUI app for setting it up in your
    favorite distro.

    By the way, there are some distros that already have that functionality
    (Mandriva, for one), and it works fine. I don't recall if you said what
    distro you're using, but what you want already exists...
     
    Dan C, Mar 18, 2006
    #33
  14. Timothy Murphy

    Jerry Peters Guest

    Linux doesn't "know" anything. You're using the most basic commands to
    bring up a wireless interface, if you want a "wizard" you need to be
    running some application to manage the connection(s).

    Jerry
     
    Jerry Peters, Mar 18, 2006
    #34
  15. Timothy Murphy

    Unruh Guest

    Of course it is not known to "Linux" YOu are using the bare tools. this is
    like saying the hammer should tell you which wall of the house to put up
    next.

    Under almost all distros there are wizards which can help youset these
    things up. In Mandrake, it can ask you for the essid, and key and your IP
    should come from dhcp usually, and that should also set up your route.

    Ie, Linux gives you the tools and most distros also combine those into
    little programs which you can run.

    For example Under mandrake if you want more direct hands on, you edit
    /etc/sysconfig/ifcfg-eth0, add a line for essid, for WEP key, and then run
    ifup eth0

    So, yes in Linux and in windows and in all other operating systems the
    essid needs to be set, the key needs to be set, the port needs to
    configured.
     
    Unruh, Mar 19, 2006
    #35
  16. I'm sorry, you are wrong.
    I did precisely what I said, with both Knoppix and Slax
    (both downloaded 2 days ago),
    and the result was exactly what I said.

    Unless you are using "connected" in a different sense than me.
    I mean that "ping" gets a return message.
    I am running a dhcpd server on my desktop.

    I'd be interested to hear if you get a different result from me
    when running Knoppix or Slax.

    However, the main thrust of my "rant" is that I get no helpful messages
    when carrying out the above commands.

    To those who say I should do something myself,
    I have actually communicated quite a lot
    with the very helpful producer of NetworkManager,
    which tries to do exactly what I would like.
    Many people have complained about system-config-network
    under Fedora without as far as I can see any effect.
     
    Timothy Murphy, Mar 19, 2006
    #36
  17. The Linux WiFi wizards that I have used (on three or four distros)
    are not as good as they should be,
    and certainly not as good as the corresponding Windows wizards.
    That is the thrust of my complaint.

    Incidentally, I don't think the Windows wizards are perfect.
    One thing that annoys me about many Windows wizards
    is that they offer me a choice of a number of options,
    none of which seem even remotely like anything I want.
    You are all a bit like religious fundamentalists
    who assume if someone uses the word "Darwin"
    they must be agents of Satan.

    I use Linux 95% of the time,
    and would like it to be much more widely used.
    One reason why it is not, in my opinion,
    is that it is not as user-friendly as Windows.

    WiFi is one area where this is particularly true.

    It's sad therefore to see that any suggestion
    that Linux might be improved is met by screams of outrage.
     
    Timothy Murphy, Mar 19, 2006
    #37
  18. As already outlined () in this
    thread, the solution is pretty easy:

    [x] send patch.

    Or get/pay someone to do the job, mail your distro about the
    matter, whatever. But what does it help to fire up this annoying
    rant in coln?

    [..]
     
    Michael Heiming, Mar 19, 2006
    #38
  19. Timothy Murphy

    Unruh Guest

    Many ISPs disable ping now adays. So under you definition it is impossible
    to get connected.

    Sorry, what "helpful messages" did you expect. Each of your commands were
    carried out. No error messages returned so no errors occured.

    You are complaining about Fedora or Linux? Your title says Linux.
    "I have to walk to the door. Someone told me I have to lift my left foot,
    move it in front of my body while tilting my body forward, put down my left
    foot to stop myself from falling forward, and then repeat with the right
    foot. I get no helpful messages when I do that."

    Ie, you go though the steps and you are connected. Where is teh problem?
    That noone told you the steps? Apparently they did. That they did not work?
    Apparently they did.
     
    Unruh, Mar 20, 2006
    #39
  20. Timothy Murphy

    Unruh Guest

    No. What is met with screams of outrage is your statement that Linux ( not
    some distribution but Linux) does not work.

    If you were to take some of those agents and point out how they could be
    improved, people might well agree with you. Of course such programs could
    probably be improved. But that was not what you did. You issued a Rant.
    (See the title of this thread), a rant against Linux. A rant with no
    specifics whatsoever. A rant with a generic blast.

    If you walk into a room full of evolutionists and state "Darwin was an
    idiot, evolution does not work" you might well find yourself with an
    argument on your hands.
    And if you walked into a fundamentalist convention and declared : "Religion
    is a hoax, it does not work." you might again find your self with an
    argument.

    Which agents are you upset with and which agents do you think could be
    improved, and how?
     
    Unruh, Mar 20, 2006
    #40
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