What Chance of Fibre connection other than Virgin Media?

Discussion in 'Broadband' started by David, Mar 21, 2011.

  1. David

    David Guest

    With Be LLU up to 24 meg unlimited and its on/was BT copper wire but now pay
    phone and line rental to Be too.
    Virgin have advised me I can go on their fibre network for BB without any
    other service if I wish, had always thought you had to have their TV and
    phone too.

    Does one have to be just lucky for my copper wire to be converted to fibre
    by BT or Be?
    Seems to be no clear plan out as to how the copper network being replaced or
    duplicated through out the country, now and again this individual exchange
    being done, just one here and another there. No joined up plan, like
    saying we doing this city centre and then working out so the whole city
    done.

    I rang VM and asked cost of fibre BB only, was told £21 a month for up to
    10 Meg with £40 installation. Said I was surprised as I got more than that
    now from copper they said I was mistaken.
    Any way they said they also did up to 30 meg and up to 50 meg services, they
    really stressed the UP TO. I did query this up to and said I thought the
    advantage of fibre over copper was to get the top speeds unaffected by
    distance they told me speed varied from house to house, only on a home visit
    would they be able to tell.

    Sorry I diverted from my proper question.
    Regards
    David
     
    David, Mar 21, 2011
    #1
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  2. No, you dont. Lots of people in Cambridge have broadband only for
    example. However most find the phone as well is better value than a BT
    landline, once you have the cable coming in.

    I think there is a plan, and that is to trial it on low numbers on a
    selection of sites, till it proves robust enough, then bean count like
    mad to see how fast it can be deployed. Given the virtual monopoly,
    there is no need to rush..


    that's because the final link is still over a pair of phone wires. XDSL.

    And the problems still exist, its just that instead of length to the
    exchange, its length to street cab.

    Virgin tend to run a coax to your house, which is inherently better than
    a twisted pair, although that still has its limits as well.

    If you want fibre to your house, expect a several grand installation
    fee. It may be coming one day, for consumer circuits, but don't hold
    your breath.
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Mar 21, 2011
    #2
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  3. Depends. The line rental is cheap, but Virgin's calls are a lot more
    expensive. So it might be useful if you want a second line, but not if you
    want to make lots of calls.
    (on BT)
    AFAIK Virgin is 'subject to survey'. In other words, there may not be
    enough signal at the end of your particular cable run to get service. This
    depends how far you are from the street cab.

    But if you can get service, I think you get 100% of the advertised speed.
    Unlike ADSL where the speed degrades with distance [1]. I think the 'up
    to'-ness being stressed is there's traffic management so you can't expect to
    download 10/20/50Mbps 24/7.

    [1] I'm not 100% sure of DOCSIS specifics, but AIUI on cable there isn't a
    channel measuring phase like there is on DSL. So the channels are
    semi-statically allocated and you either get them or you don't. I don't
    think there's any dynamic frequency allocation to compensate for nulls -
    cable is a broadcast medium so each run may have different frequency
    behaviour. The remedy for this is Virgin simply provide enough power to
    start with and minimise losses with a quality cable.

    Theo
     
    Theo Markettos, Mar 21, 2011
    #3
  4. David

    Brian Mc Guest

    : No, you dont. Lots of people in Cambridge have broadband only for
    : example. However most find the phone as well is better value than a BT
    : landline, once you have the cable coming in.

    What??? VM's "line rental" is more than BT's - and they have, I believe,
    the most expensive calls of ANY phone provider!

    People only take Virgin's phone service as it costs more (certainly for
    bundles of services) NOT to have it!
     
    Brian Mc, Mar 21, 2011
    #4
  5. Look either its more expensive overall, or it isn't.


    You cant have it both ways. :)
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Mar 21, 2011
    #5
  6. David

    Woody Guest


    I'll explain.

    I used to have 10Mb cable for BB only. Then I discovered that you
    can have phone and a box as well for 10p more - you get the TV
    free and pay £11 phone rental. TV is only free channels and a few
    odd others, but you do yet iPlayer fed direct to your TV at
    (AFAICS) original quality.

    I have L for BB and M for phone - I get all landline calls free
    at the weekend but we rarely use it. It does come into its own
    however if I am away and my wife is on the phone yattering; one
    quick call to the cable line to make it ring a few times and she
    gets the message!
     
    Woody, Mar 21, 2011
    #6
  7. David

    kraftee Guest

    'Fraid you are wrong there the final link is via coaxial cable, not twisted
    pair. The speed of the connection depends on length and quality of said
    coax'.
     
    kraftee, Mar 21, 2011
    #7
  8. David

    David Guest

    I'm about 25 ft from pavement and a little Cable cover. This in turn is
    about 60 yds from the green metal cabinet.
    Where is it fibre to?
    Where does the further link start?
    Regards
    David
     
    David, Mar 21, 2011
    #8
  9. David

    David Guest

    I'm about 25 ft from pavement and a little Cable cover. This in turn is
    about 60 yds from the green metal cabinet.
    Where is it fibre to?
    Where does the further link start?
    Regards
    David
     
    David, Mar 21, 2011
    #9
  10. David

    alexd Guest

    Meanwhile, at the uk.telecom.broadband Job Justification Hearings, David
    chose the tried and tested strategy of:
    You can get BB on its own from them, but it's priced in such a way as to
    make no sense. The logic [I think] being that having a phone line gives you
    the opportunity to spend money with them, so they factor this into the
    price.
    I think living in a cabled area is a reasonable way of determining if your
    area will get VDSL ;-)
    Don't hold your breath; in at least one area, BT aren't happy with the level
    of uptake:

    http://www.ispreview.co.uk/story/2011/03/11/bt-uk-frustrated-by-lack-of-
    superfast-fttc-broadband-uptake-in-cardiff-wales.html

    Although it's not wise to extrapolate from one data point, I don't see any
    extenuating circumstances for that area in that story, so have no reason to
    believe it's exceptional. And if not enough people are interested in VDSL,
    then that doesn't give BT much of an incentive to spend the money.
    At this point, alarm bells should be ringing. They're trying to tell you
    that you don't actually know how fast your current broadband is. What other
    bullshit are they going to give you in order to secure a sale?
    Perfectly wise. They're not selling you an SLA.
    For both, speed is determined by signal strength, which is affected by
    distance and the quality of the cable.
     
    alexd, Mar 21, 2011
    #10
  11. Sorry, that got cut and pasted out of context. BT is over twisted pair
    AFAIK.

    Vigin is of course co ax.
    ..
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Mar 21, 2011
    #11
  12. David

    David Guest

    They were not doing anything to get a sale in fact they were putting off.
    Think it might be they not wanting single product customers, maybe only
    customers with a few products give them a good return.
    (EG. they did not mention the current promotion of half price for first 6
    months.)

    Now on my Be up to 24 meg I get half in speed, these losses you mention is
    there a sort of guesstimate factor can be applied to their up to 30 meg?

    Regards
    David
     
    David, Mar 21, 2011
    #12
  13. David

    Dave Wade Guest

    Why is CO-AX better than a twisted pair. You can run gigabit Ethernet over
    twisted pairs. COAX tends to suffer from signals traveling along the outer
    which is why you can see "braid breakers" used to cure interference on TVs.
     
    Dave Wade, Mar 22, 2011
    #13
  14. You can run Gigaherhz down a coax. Not down a twisted pair.
    Still only Mhz
    Well that's the point, Where do you think they run in twisted pair?
    Go back and read up what a braid breaker is actually for.

    We aren't talking about TV's however but...why dont TV's use twisted
    pair then?
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Mar 22, 2011
    #14
  15. That sounds like copper from the street cab pricing, using the same
    cables as they use for cable tv distribution, rather than fibre to your
    premises.

    Rgds

    Denis McMahon
     
    Denis McMahon, Mar 22, 2011
    #15
  16. David

    Stephen Guest

    co-ax works better for high frequencies - which is why aerial cables
    are co-ax and not twisted pair.

    You can run gigabit Ethernet over
    true. But cleever modulation is used and signals sent across 4 pairs
    in parallel to keep the frequencies used as low as practical.

    symbol rate is 125 Mbaud, frequencies up to 37 MHz or so?

    COAX tends to suffer from signals traveling along the outer
    Co-ax sort of has to be unbalanaced - signal down the inner core,
    return path thru the outer braid.
    The effects balance out as the 2 conductors are concentric.
    (or your favourite equivalent analogy).

    certainly if you go ask BT for an Ethernet access link now they are
    not cheap, but they are pricing FTTP for businesses with fairly low
    install
    http://business.bt.com/broadband-and-internet/internet-access/fibre-broadband/

    the install charge is going to depend on install costs to BT - but
    dont forget that if this becomes common, then most of the fibre run
    will be shared across lots of connections, or it might use a run
    common to a FTTC cabinet

    BT have released some info on work involved in an install during the
    MK trial which make it sound like unlying costs are £100s rather than
    £1000s (and they will probably eat some of that so it shows up in the
    monthly rental rather than a high install charge)
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03/bt_milton_keynes_fibre_to_the_premises_trial/print.html
     
    Stephen, Mar 22, 2011
    #16
  17. David

    Stephen Guest

    More likely a sales droid who has some numbers for "typical" ADSL
    speed and didnt read out the caveats or bother to take in what numbers
    you gave for your ADSL :)
    True. but you tend to get your rated speed on cable except when
    traffic management kicks in.

    management policy:
    http://help.virginmedia.com/system/...R_TYPE=Cable&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=2781

    note that when it kicks in it may alter upstream as well as
    downstream, and i think ADSL ISPs tend to only throttle downstream.

    1 other thing to watch is that upstream data rates on cable have
    traditionally been lower than with ADSL due to the way the system
    works, although that seems to be improving with VM.
    and you are only asking for entry level cable broadband - they
    probably feel differently if you ask for 100 Mbps......

    Seems ironic the starting point for cable of 10Mbps is a fair bit
    higher than most ADSL customers could get.
     
    Stephen, Mar 22, 2011
    #17
  18. David

    Graham J Guest

    [snip]
    I think it's a more practical issue - coax is available with simple standard
    connectors.

    I don't think there is any common standard for single pair transmission
    lines. (Long ago) in my days of playing with amateur radio, static
    installations often used parallel wire feeders - they would connect directly
    to an antenna and didn't need the balance-to-unbalance transformers often
    required for co-ax. Then of course one would make a VSWR meter to measure
    the standing wave on the feeder in order to improve the match between
    transmitter, feeder, and antenna.
     
    Graham J, Mar 22, 2011
    #18

  19. 300 ohm ribbon cable?

    (Long ago) in my days of playing with amateur radio, static
    In theory any pair of wires will work as a 'transmission line' . In
    practice co-ax is easiest to package if you want a low impedance (75
    ohm) for feeding a quarter wave antenna. Twisted pair tends to be OK for
    a couple of hundred, Ribbon for 300 ohm. In practice if you can select
    end point impedance, twisted pair is cheaper, but loses more signal at
    high frequencies.

    And is subject to more imbalance and non common mode pickup.
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Mar 23, 2011
    #19
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