Ping kráftéé ? Advice needed to trace wiring fault.

Discussion in 'Broadband' started by Howard Neil, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Tomorrow, I am going to try to help out a neighbour and attempt to trace
    a wiring fault. I could do with any suitable advice before starting.

    The situation is this:-

    He has just been enabled for broadband but could not connect and asked
    me for help (not that I know very much).

    He has two telephone extensions leading from the master socket and his
    computer is using one of them. He is using a router but the DSL light
    was not showing.

    When the router is attached to the test socket of the master socket, the
    DSL light comes on. When the router is plugged into the front plate
    socket of the master socket, the DSL light stays off. I therefore
    presume that there is a fault in his extension wiring.

    What I propose to do tomorrow (please correct any mistaken assumptions) is:-

    Expose the connections at all of the sockets, run a length of spare wire
    (bell wire) between them and test each telephone wire for continuity
    (using the bell wire for the return path). This, I hope, will show where
    the fault is and enable us to correct it or re-wire as necessary.

    Any comments/suggestions are welcome, please.
     
    Howard Neil, Aug 31, 2006
    #1
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  2. Howard Neil

    kráftéé Guest

    Shouldn't be neccesary to do continuity test. It's simple, does a
    telephone work at each socket? If yes you have got continuity.

    Things to look for..

    What type of cable have the extensions been run with? Is it twisted
    pair, burglar alarm cable(no twists, no pairs & the conductor is
    stranded) or the flat extensions which everybody & their dog appear to
    be selling. If it is twisted pair go to the next pointer, if not give
    up now & start thinking laterally...

    If it's twisted pair ensure that it's not been connected split pair,
    in other words the blue white with white blue, orange white with white
    orange, if you get my drift, & the connections you should use are 2&5
    (one pair) & (if you are going the whole hog & doing it properly)
    another wire connected to 3. There maybe other connections available
    but they aren't used in this scenario. Older cables may have colored
    markers & a white to make a pair, but you can find out the pairing if
    you look at the twists. Newer installs may have used colored leadin
    in this case it's white & orange, black & green.

    Make sure that all equipment is filtered (yep even the Sky digi box
    which a surprising number of end users forget) this includes any extra
    tele bells or even burglar alarms (which is another one which
    end-users appear to forget).

    If you've done all the above & it still is not working then try
    removing the bell wire, pin 3, see if that makes a difference.

    If you're still got problems make sure that all connections are good &
    tight (have known more than a few cases where the problems have been
    caused by faulty/loose terminations on the extension wiring).

    After that mug a passing DSL engineer & feed him tea & biscuits until
    they've fixed it, but seriously though, it is a logical progression
    which you just have to work thru. there may be problems with the
    extension wiring which have been there ever since day one & you just
    have to work your way thru checking quality of cables, connections etc
    & just because you only get 2 filters in the box doesn't mean that you
    only filter 2 things, you have to filter all equipment (yes I have
    been called out more than once to people who thought like that as
    well).

    HTH

    B-)
     
    kráftéé, Aug 31, 2006
    #2
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  3. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Thank you very much for the reply. I don't yet know what type of cable
    has been used. I do know that the telephones work on all extensions but
    they have had intermittent problems with them over the years (problems
    that then clear up on their own or are blamed on equipment such as the
    answer phone) so it may well be an old fault.

    I have printed out your suggestions to take with me (in case I forget
    anything).

    I am very much obliged.
     
    Howard Neil, Aug 31, 2006
    #3
  4. Howard Neil

    kráftéé Guest

    Shucks, ain't no problem, I've given you a bit of grounding that's
    all, just think it thru logically & you shouldn't have any problems
    but hearing about the intermittent problems which they have suffered
    from in the past does make me glad it's you & not me who's trying to
    help..

    Hope it's a success

    B-)
     
    kráftéé, Aug 31, 2006
    #4
  5. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Thanks. You never know about getting the job. You don't work West Wales,
    do you by any chance? ;-)
     
    Howard Neil, Aug 31, 2006
    #5
  6. Howard Neil

    The Simpsons Guest

    The Simpsons, Aug 31, 2006
    #6
  7. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Howard Neil, Aug 31, 2006
    #7
  8. Howard Neil

    Old Codger Guest

    I don't think he does.

    --
    Old Codger
    e-mail use reply to field

    What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
    believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
     
    Old Codger, Aug 31, 2006
    #8
  9. Howard Neil

    Leveled Guest

    I would suggest you buy a cheap phone extension lead ,plug a filter into
    the master socket and extend from the ADSL socket, on the filter direct to
    the modem or whatever, you may need some Rj 11 sockets and plugs, if it
    doesn't work then it may be down to B.T
    I get the best results from this, but sometimes not good enough as I am some
    distance from the exchange
     
    Leveled, Sep 1, 2006
    #9
  10. Howard Neil

    kráftéé Guest

    Problem with cheap phone extensions is 2 fold, if not more. The
    quality standards to which they are made are questionable in many
    cases. The actual construct with it being flat ( no effective
    shielding from any RF noise sources in your property, that's one of
    the reasons the pairs are twisted together in reasonable quality
    telephone wiring) & the fact that the conductors are stranded & not
    solid & so in themselves can cause noise problems.

    One case higlights this very problem, but there have been plenty more,
    visited an enduser who was complaining about intermitent connections,
    over the course of 5 visits everything & it's dog had been changed
    until eventually they were getting 18db loop & a very resonable SNR
    figure as well, but they still kept raising faults.

    This was in the days when we had a little leeway in looking at
    customers wiring so on the 6th visit the signal was checked before &
    after his cheapo extension, the 18dB attenuation had become 37dB by
    the time it had past thru his bodge up & the SNR had gone thru the
    floor, At this stage he was advised that any more visits would be
    fully chargable & you know what............he hasn't raised a single
    fault in the last 5 years, after he had been bothered enough to
    actually use the correct quality equipment & not a couple of £1 shop
    special telephone extensions as he had been advised to do on a couple
    of previous occaisions.

    Buying cheap normally equates with being more expensive in the long
    run....
     
    kráftéé, Sep 1, 2006
    #10
  11. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Thank you very much for your help, kráftéé and Fred. I have had success.
    My next door neighbour now has Broadband.

    The master socket had two extensions and an external bell leading from
    it. I found that the router synced at the front socket if I removed all
    extensions/bell. I put wires back one by one (checking for sync each
    time) and found the main problem was the bell wire of the downstairs
    extension. My neighbour is happy with no bells on those two 'phones (he
    can hear the one that plugs straight into the master socket).

    The only other problem involved the upstairs extension. The DSL sync
    light would not remain steady with that circuit connected so my
    neighbour has decided to live without it until we have time to make a
    new extension.

    He has now gone from an estimated 25kbps to a measured 473kbps (I am on
    an 8.8 kilometre line and he is about 3/4 kilometre further on, so he is
    approx 9.5 kilometres from the switch as the 'phone line flies. Good,
    eh?). I left him totally engrossed in the internet. :)
     
    Howard Neil, Sep 1, 2006
    #11
  12. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Thanks for your suggestion. I have now fixed it (problem on one bell wire).
     
    Howard Neil, Sep 1, 2006
    #12
  13. Howard Neil

    kráftéé Guest

    You should still have working bells on those phones as the filters
    (well the good quality ones anyway) contain a ringing capacitor. So
    if the phones are plugged into a filter & the filter into the 2 wire
    extension (which is what you should have effectively done) the
    telephones should still ring. If they're not I would view the filters
    with some suspicion.

    Well you taken him the first step, good on ya, it's great to meet
    another user who doesn't just talk the talk but actually tries to walk
    the walk as well (& in their own time as well). You may make some
    mistakes (& some of mine have been big ones) but it's the only way to
    learn the feel of the product, how it actually does go together & does
    actually work.

    Kudos to you young man nice metting you..
     
    kráftéé, Sep 1, 2006
    #13
  14. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Interesting. Good news. :)

    Thanks, particularly for the "young" part as I'm actually retired. I
    must admit I enjoy a good challenge and it's a great feeling when you
    succeed. Your assistance and encouragement was a major help. Thank you,
    once again.
     
    Howard Neil, Sep 1, 2006
    #14
  15. Howard Neil

    Old Codger Guest

    But you are a young retired. :)

    --
    Old Codger
    e-mail use reply to field

    What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
    believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
     
    Old Codger, Sep 1, 2006
    #15
  16. Howard Neil

    Howard Neil Guest

    Thank you, young man. :)

    [note to others: Old Codger and myself have met]
     
    Howard Neil, Sep 1, 2006
    #16
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