Linux is impossibly complicated

Discussion in 'Linux Networking' started by Fred Jones, Jun 3, 2004.

  1. Well, as an old systems-programmer, I must agree with one of the previous
    One example of a poor implementation does not defeat the concept. IMHO
    the problems with Windows are many: historical (DOS roots) design (poor
    separation of user and kernel space), etc but have little to do with
    making it admin friendly.
    Takes a lot of skill currently, yes. But should it?

    I have a hard time with the implications that this creates. Given the
    proliferation of the PC, either:
    1. Everybody and their grandmother should have to hire a skilled techie
    to maintain their computer.
    or
    2. Linux should restricted to the server market (and cede the desktop,
    especially the non-business desktop, market to what... Windows? blah.)

    Steve
     
    Steve Schefter, Jun 4, 2004
    #21
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  2. Fred Jones

    Gerard Guest

    I agree. Then again, Windows is by design a one-user system for the masses,
    They get what they choose for (and what they deserve): a system that can do
    everything they need, and then some (sic). Most users (my guess) do not use
    more than 5% of what their elaborate systems can do, but hey, they're
    happy, whoami to judge that?
    Yes it should. Let's not pretend that any nit-wit can maintain Windows NT
    2000 or XP professional. MSCE certificates do not come over the mail, one
    has to earn those (so I've heard ;). And then, being an able maintainer
    still takes a lot of experience and not just this one course.
    No, I disagree. They do not *have* to do this. Whether you're using MS or
    Linux on your computer, the maintenance stays the same. (vacuming now and
    then, an occasional cloth for the glass of your screen etc).

    But seriously, I suppose the maintenance you mean is for the OS. And yes,
    *that* depends on the choice one makes. If you want to be able to do
    everything by the press of a button, your choice is obvious (and alongside
    you take a fat wallet with a whole bundle of money to pay for all the
    excess hardware you need in the process).

    When on the other hand you are prepared to invest study and effort you can
    drive (so to speek) at the same speed for much, much less money, because
    you can do your own tailoring and maintenance.
    It's not Linux that should cede the desktop, it's the people that choose
    Linux without prior knowledge of what such a choice means and who
    subsequently begin complaining and whining that it is so difficult.

    If you don't like to fumble around, don't! Buy yourself a fat carton box
    with Suse, RedHat or whatever precompiled system of your liking, and be
    happy on your way. If then you have a problem installing some exotic piece
    of hardware, do *not* complain with the Linux community, but direct your
    complaints to the manufacturer of the hardware.

    When people go and whine any further, developers just might turn this
    beauty into a MS-like beast that does it all (and then some) and fills up
    the full capacity of one's HD...

    --- Gerard


    --
    GerardLinux ay tee filternet dee oo tee ann el

    ACHTUNG!!
    Das machinen is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
    schnappen der spingenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit spitzensparken.
    Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren
    keepen handen in das pockets. Relaxen und vatch das blinkenlights!!!
     
    Gerard, Jun 4, 2004
    #22
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  3. Their questions are simple from technical point of view. But I would call
    it English test. It's really difficult for ESL people (i.e. me) to
    understand question first time (I needed to read every question at least
    twice), and they're also looong (I didn't have that kind of problem with
    any other tests).

    They also don't give you score, so you'll never know if you answered
    correctly all questions or just barely passed.
    I think that at least one distribution should have goal to replace windows.
    I'm thinking it's RedHat, but also Lindows/Lin---s/Linspire is maybe even
    closer to it. There will be a great advantage for everyone when Linux will
    be popular on desktop computers.

    There are plenty of distributions which don't care to be user friendliness,
    they're concerned about server side, and that's good too.
     
    Dariusz =?iso-8859-2?Q?Kuli=F1ski?= / TaKeDa, Jun 4, 2004
    #23
  4. Sorry, but wanting something doesn't automatically make it possible. The
    correct approach to building computer systems is:
    - decide which software fulfills your needs
    - get the right hardware to run your software
    You are approaching the problem from the wrong direction.
     
    Markku Kolkka, Jun 5, 2004
    #24
  5. It is a very daunting task, especially if you have no prior knowledge of
    Linux. You should get a book if you are not versed in Linux and at
    least experiment with the system before you write it off as unworkable.

    As opposed to what, Windows 95/98/ME that crashes like Dudley Moore
    driving a semi? Or Windows 2000/XP/2003 that requires patch after patch
    after patch that may or may not render your system useable afterwards.


    Get yourself two wired ethernet cards. WiFI isn't well supported in
    Linux and this is a firewall, it shouldn't be available to anyone except
    at the console or perhaps from the local network. WiFI card would break
    that concept.

    And this is the fault of whom? It's not the fault of the people who
    write the drivers that you've, to be completely candid, have bitten off
    more than you can chew.

    No. Drivers can be installed as modules. See above recommendation
    about purchasing a book about Linux to help ease the transition.


    Conversely, we've seen how well no-brainer installations go. DLL-hell,
    poorly written applications over writing DLL files and constant visits
    to the device manager screen to remove drivers, swap the PCI slot,
    reboot, ad nauseum. Really, Windows is just a different kind of pain in
    the neck.

    The average user isn't going to understand it. The OS that's supposed
    to be written for the average user, Mac OSX, isn't that intuitive. All
    operating systems take time to understand, this one is no different.
    Coupled with your desire to make it into a firewall and you have no
    shortage of fun.

    There's plenty of support in the groups, plenty of web pages that show
    supported hardware and plenty of books to help with this.
    Unfortunately, the onus is on you to take that information and put it to
    use and get this to work. Or, you can take the no-brainer approach.
     
    Jeff Breitner, Jun 5, 2004
    #25
  6. If you want a firewall that doesn't sit on a hard drive, try GTA Box
    Lite at http://www.gta.com/products/gblight/
     
    Jeff Breitner, Jun 5, 2004
    #26
  7. Fred Jones

    Gerard Guest

    On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 10:13:05 -0400, Jeff Breitner scribbled:

    [snip]
    hear hear !

    --
    GerardLinux ay tee filternet dee oo tee ann el

    ACHTUNG!!
    Das machinen is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
    schnappen der spingenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit spitzensparken.
    Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren
    keepen handen in das pockets. Relaxen und vatch das blinkenlights!!!
     
    Gerard, Jun 5, 2004
    #27
  8. Fred Jones

    Jon Dough Guest

    Hang in there. Most of us have been in your position at one time or
    another. On the bright side I just spent my Saturday afternoon removing a
    series of worms and viruses from a friends Windoze computer, mostly
    because IE has so many holes in it. The " " program is like trying to
    cook in a culender! But you are right. It was easy to use when set up, it
    is the defacto standard so most worms are set up to take advantage of that
    ease. I will take the time to learn Linux...it works without so many
    holes!
     
    Jon Dough, Jun 6, 2004
    #28
  9. Fred Jones

    Vilmos Soti Guest

    What about spending some time to learn it? Face it, Linux/Unix has
    a big learning curve, but once you understand the basics, then
    everything else seems confusing.

    Unix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand
    the simplicity. - Dennis Ritchie

    And I absolutely wouldn't mind, even more, I would be happy if it
    stayed as it is now and wouldn't become mainstream. If you need
    mainstream, then use Windows. However, I am happy what Linux is
    now. The last thing Linux needs is to dumb it down to a
    point'n'click interface or to turn it into a glorified typewriter
    and phone.

    Honestly, I don't care if a grandmother who is totally ignorant
    about anything machine can use it. Linux is not for them. Linux
    is for those who are willing to spend time to learn it and are
    actually interested in it. However, once you learn, then the
    rewards will be plenty.

    Vilmos
     
    Vilmos Soti, Jun 6, 2004
    #29
  10. Fred Jones

    Alan Connor Guest


    First of all, a lot of us don't want linux to become 'mainstream', because
    if the average appliance-operator likes it, it will be nothing but a
    windoze clone. (I wouldn't touch Redhat or Mandrake or Suse with a
    10 meter pole.)

    Secondly, you have it backwards: It is the windoze people that work
    very hard at keeping their clients from understanding their OS and
    therefore dependent on their tech support, which costs money.
    Starting with their secret source code.

    In the linux world you will find reams of documentation and thousands
    of helpful people, and open source code.

    Yes. It is hard. Computers are complex pieces of equipment.
    Windoze is a bad hack on DOS, which is a poor Unix clone.
    It is *much* more complex than linux.

    I can do anything that windoze can do with a fraction of the software.
    Or can you show me a fully operational, network-capable windoze
    operating system that fits on a single floppy?

    No. Not even close. But I have one of those for linux, right here.


    AC
     
    Alan Connor, Jun 6, 2004
    #30
  11. Have you thought of applying for a job with Microsoft publicity?
     
    Timothy Murphy, Jun 6, 2004
    #31
  12. Sorry, for being rude, but actually Linux is famous from "helpful" people
    on newsgroups and IRC. Most common words are "RTFM" and "man".
    Comparing to other OS'es I would say that Linux actually is last if it come
    to help other people.

    I'm not pointing at you, I'm just telling what I observed.
    That was true for Windows 9x... Seems that you heard that argument from
    someone else long time ago.
    Nobody cares about fitting OS on floppy disc, when floppy is obsolete.
    Some new computers doesn't even have floppy drive, and CD-R is a lot
    cheaper, faster, and bigger medium than floppy disc, not to mention that
    data stays longer.

    Those points you mentioned were good couple years earlier, now they're
    simply don't count.
     
    Dariusz =?iso-8859-2?Q?Kuli=F1ski?= / TaKeDa, Jun 6, 2004
    #32
  13. You're wrong, if Linux won't be doing to be more popular as it is now, it
    will die very fast.
    More popular system = greater support for it from hardware and software
    companies. You don't understand that Linux actually makes a lot of
    distributions if you really want that complexity, you can still use some
    obscure distribution. But greater popularity of Linux can benefit to
    everyone.

    Also Microsoft is trying to go into enterprise, currently that's kind of
    look funny, but they'll eventually succeed if Linux won't try to be more
    popular this could be actually end of Linux.

    If you like Linux you should do everything you can to make it more popular.
    Who cares if Feodora, SuSe etc. will be as much user friendly as possible
    (making Linux more stronger) if you can still use your Slackware, Gentoo or
    any other hard core distribution ;)

    I believe that people who don't want to make Linux popular, are just afraid
    that someone in time can know as much as they du, but are too lazy to learn
    more. When Linux becomes less popular, guess what happen, Linux will become
    obsolete and finally even you'll switch to something else.
     
    Dariusz =?iso-8859-2?Q?Kuli=F1ski?= / TaKeDa, Jun 6, 2004
    #33
  14. Here in comp.os.linux.networking,
    It can be, but it takes time to make things beginner-friendly, and a
    typical Linux distribution is a fairly complex beast by nature.
    Yes, but Linux does a lot more than EXEC 8 or GWBASIC did. :)
    No, it's more familiar to you. Not easier.

    Both are probably considered "hocus pocus" by a nontechnical user, and
    both are relatively easy to remember once you become familar with them.

    I think others have made good points. It's much easier to start with a
    known working setup and move from there.

    Consider using a pair of NICs that use standard ethernet and configuring
    a firewall using that, then move to more esoteric hardware as you learn
    the basics (and limitations) of the Linux system and its level of
    device support.
    Consider something simple like Coyote Linux, which I use here with good
    success on my cablemodem setup:

    http://www.coyotelinux.com

    It requires a single 3.5" 1.44MB diskette, and it even has a Windows
    installation program to make the initial diskette creation process a
    relatively simple one.
    Moving to a new platform requires a certain amount of effort. That has
    always been the case in the past, and I suspect will always continue to
    be in the future.

    I was where you are now ten years ago, and believe me it takes time to
    make the adjustment when moving away from the majority platform.
    It's the same reason there are so many different makes/models of cars
    on the roads today -- different people can have vastly different tastes
    in software, and the availablility of the source means that just about
    anyone who feels so inclined can create their own Linux distro to meet
    their own specific needs.
     
    Richard Steiner, Jun 7, 2004
    #34
  15. Fred Jones

    Alan Connor Guest

    For you, there is a battle being waged between Linux and Microsoft for
    the consumer market.

    I don't have any part of that, and couldn't care less. Making Linux acces-
    sible to mindless-consumer/appliance-operators doesn't interest me a bit.
    In fact, it repulses me.

    I would not work for Microsoft and I would not work for people like you,
    whose goals are distros that are just Microsoft clones, controlled by
    investors.

    Fortunately, you can't do anything to keep the amateur Linux people from
    doing whatever they want, boycotting your perverted distros being at the
    top of the list.

    Have a day.

    AC
     
    Alan Connor, Jun 7, 2004
    #35
  16. Fred Jones

    Alan Connor Guest

    My experience has obviously been otherwise.

    But Linux is not for the lazy, and if you aren't willing to do your home-
    work, then you may as well go back to Windoze. No one is going to wipe
    your ass for you.

    <snip>

    AC
     
    Alan Connor, Jun 7, 2004
    #36
  17. Fred Jones

    nunya Guest

    The essence of the *nixes in general ;) And the most intelligent thing you
    have said the entire thread. Now you REALLY get it.
     
    nunya, Jun 7, 2004
    #37
  18. Fred Jones

    Gerard Guest

    On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 11:20:06 -0700, Dariusz KuliƱski / TaKeDa scribbled:

    [snip]
    Not true. A serious question gets a serious answer. Questions like: my
    modem doesn't work, what should I do? are bound to get ridiculed, and
    rightly so. You just *do not* barge in your neighbours door and ask him
    regardless of what he's doing: "Hey you, I need your help, come with me!".

    The least you can do is ask, and specify what your problem is in somewhat
    more detail to emable him to decide whether he will be able to help.

    "no-brainer" questions get "nill-brainer" answers...

    [snip]
    And what have we here?

    Yet another nit-wit defending that hardware-development goes so fast that
    there's no need to write efficient programs anymore.

    "Nobody cares" actually means:

    there are no elements in the manager population that have
    a thourough enough understanding of the art of effecient
    computer programming so that they are able to estimate
    the added-value of it.

    Usually this leads to overtight time-schedules (where BTW real programmers
    do not give a " " about because they are almost never involved in the
    planning process) and f(*^* up managers when their expectations do not come
    true, eventually leading to the fine art of "dropping functionality", or
    "flying in some more capacity" and the likes.

    In short: get at least ten years of experience, then come back, and maybe,
    I say maybe, you're allowed a few serious answers here.


    Hey, but that's just me...

    --
    GerardLinux ay tee filternet dee oo tee ann el

    ACHTUNG!!
    Das machinen is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
    schnappen der spingenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit spitzensparken.
    Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren
    keepen handen in das pockets. Relaxen und vatch das blinkenlights!!!
     
    Gerard, Jun 7, 2004
    #38
  19. Fred Jones

    Fred Jones Guest

    Sorry, but I got it working. Red Hat on an old PC with two NICs plus the
    Diamond Home Phone card as eht2. One NIC is the WAN one is the LAN and the
    home phone card as a second LAN. Machines should do what people want,
    people should not bow to machines. Not bad, considering two weeks ago I
    couldn't spell Linux.
     
    Fred Jones, Jun 7, 2004
    #39
  20. Fred Jones

    Fred Jones Guest

    You get it! Easier doesn't mean dumber or less adaptable or bloated. It
    means more popular, more manufacturers will support it and the ball starts
    rolling instead of having to be pushed.
     
    Fred Jones, Jun 7, 2004
    #40
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