Is FTTC a con?

Discussion in 'Broadband' started by PeterC, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. PeterC

    PeterC Guest

    Bearing in mind that the replacement is from exchange to cabinet, in the
    case of this village that's about 2.8km of fibre, there is a much shorter
    run of copper TTH - obviously.
    Now, I'm about 300 - 350m from the cabinet by road; the cable to the pole is
    actually 800m long (according to OR).
    On 800m of cable I'd expect a lot higher than the 2.4 - 3.0 mbps that I get.

    To my (simple) mind, one effect of FTTC is to give an effective distance to
    the 'exchange' the same as to the cabinet, assuming that the fibre to the
    exchange has no noticeable drop.

    So, surely the logical thing to do is put all the connections in the cabinet
    to the fibre and hey presto (or Blink) all lines are immediately faster.

    Is the lack of improvement due purely for more profit by charging for the
    above?
     
    PeterC, Jul 23, 2015
    #1
    1. Advertisements

  2. PeterC

    Dick Guest

    So who pays the hundreds of thousands of pounds it costs to provide the
    fibre cable, the equipment in the exchange and the equipment in the
    cabinet if not those that want extra speed and are prepared to pay for
    it. Do you think everybody should pay even if they don't want the extra
    speed?
     
    Dick, Jul 23, 2015
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. PeterC

    NY Guest

    There are two improvements with FTTC: shorter length of copper cable, as you
    say, but also a different (faster) form of modulation (VDSL rather than
    ADSL) which allocates a greater proportion of any available bandwidth to
    uploads - I think (but I could be wrong) that VDSL apportions upload and
    download as a fixed *percentage*, whereas ADSL has a fixed rate of about 0.4
    Mbps (ADSL) or 0.9 Mbps (ADSL2) for upload and then whatever is left over is
    for download.

    Thus the biggest benefit of FTTC, as long as you are not using it for
    downloading huge files/films, is the dramatically increased upload rate for
    ending emails or uploading files by FTP or Skype etc; the increased download
    rate may not be very noticeable for normal web browsing since it will be
    maybe 4 Mbps even with ADSL, and any increase beyond that may improve the
    time to load a page by such a small amount as to be unnoticeable. Of course,
    you *will* notice it if you are downloading several hundred MB of
    installation file or a couple of GB of film.
     
    NY, Jul 23, 2015
    #3
  4. PeterC

    Graham J Guest


    There is a cost as well as the profit element. Fibre from exchange to
    cabinet is an extra cost; but it is said that it could be recouped by
    selling the copper that runs from exchange to cabinet, but that has
    other implications for the Plain Old Telephone Service.

    The DSLAM in the exchange that was used for ADSL is replaced by a more
    modern equivalent for VDSL which is designed to operate in the street
    cabinet (so lower power, wider temperature tolerances). So there's the
    development cost, and the installation cost.

    Where I live the nearest "green cabinet" is 3km distant, at a road
    junction. There are plastic pods on some of the telephone poles where
    wires are joined, but as yet there is no VDSL device which can replace
    these. At 3km VDSL will achieve about 8mbits/sec - this is nearly 3
    times faster than ADSL achieves on a good day - the exchange is nearly
    5km distant. But 3km of cable with more than a few VDSL connections
    will suffer badly from crosstalk, so Openreach isn't planning to offer
    VDSL here - not ever, from what I understand.

    Ironically, there is a business in the village which has ISDN30 supplied
    over fibre, and has done so for over 20 years; and I'm sure there must
    be "dark" fibres in the bundle that supplies it. So the fibre is
    already here!
     
    Graham J, Jul 23, 2015
    #4
  5. PeterC

    Scott Guest

    Well, I went from under 5 Mbps to 76 Mbps so I don't see it as a con.
    Is that not PTTP (fibre to the premises)? Think you can have that if
    you want it and have several thousand pounds to spend.
    I think if you are getting under 3 Mbps (not millibits as you suggest)
    on FTTC something is badly wrong.
     
    Scott, Jul 23, 2015
    #5
  6. PeterC

    Roger Mills Guest

    How long have you been on FTTC? If only a day or two, your line profile
    may still be set for the ADSL speed. Or, if it has recently been upped,
    you won't see any speed increase until you disconnect and then
    re-connect. You may care to try that.
    --
    Cheers,
    Roger
    ____________
    Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
    checked.
     
    Roger Mills, Jul 23, 2015
    #6
  7. PeterC

    Roger Mills Guest

    Unless you've recently gone for PlusNet's default fibre offering which
    is 40/2 - i.e. download speeds of up to 40Mbps but an upload speed
    capped at a miserable 2Mbps!
    --
    Cheers,
    Roger
    ____________
    Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
    checked.
     
    Roger Mills, Jul 23, 2015
    #7
  8. PeterC

    David Guest

    I think I'm just under 1KM from my cabinet and on up to 38 FTTC and I get
    31.5 Mbs
    Think you have a problem with your ISP who is giving you ADSL, are you sure
    you ordered and paying for FTTC?
    Regards
    David



    "PeterC" wrote in message

    Bearing in mind that the replacement is from exchange to cabinet, in the
    case of this village that's about 2.8km of fibre, there is a much shorter
    run of copper TTH - obviously.
    Now, I'm about 300 - 350m from the cabinet by road; the cable to the pole is
    actually 800m long (according to OR).
    On 800m of cable I'd expect a lot higher than the 2.4 - 3.0 mbps that I get.

    To my (simple) mind, one effect of FTTC is to give an effective distance to
    the 'exchange' the same as to the cabinet, assuming that the fibre to the
    exchange has no noticeable drop.

    So, surely the logical thing to do is put all the connections in the cabinet
    to the fibre and hey presto (or Blink) all lines are immediately faster.

    Is the lack of improvement due purely for more profit by charging for the
    above?
     
    David, Jul 23, 2015
    #8
  9. PeterC

    Richard_CC Guest


    76 is the theoretical maximum for FTTC, lots of providers offer a 38 and
    a 76 choice with a small price difference.

    I think the FTTP providers, Sky, Virgin and the like have upped their
    game in some urban areas and offer better than 76, but they don't have
    any infrastructure where the population is insufficiently dense.

    Where the population is dense, they want to make money from selling the
    entertainment channels and sport that you can deliver down fibre. The
    ISP bit isn't the money maker. Same with BT on FTTC - they are an
    entertainment company now, FTTC has opened up the market no end.

    I can see the green cabinet from my study window. Had ADSL2+, about 2
    miles from exchange, getting 4 Mbps on a good day. FTTC arrived in
    Spring, now getting 76 rock solid reliable, and 20 up. (with Zen, not
    the cheapest but excellent in every respect based on my experience so far).
     
    Richard_CC, Jul 23, 2015
    #9
  10. PeterC

    David Guest

    When OR were here he told me not to go for up to 78 as what I had now was
    the highest I could get out of my line distance.
    Seems ISP's happy to let me pay more for same though.
    Regards
    David




    "Richard_CC" wrote in message
    76 is the theoretical maximum for FTTC, lots of providers offer a 38 and
    a 76 choice with a small price difference.

    I think the FTTP providers, Sky, Virgin and the like have upped their
    game in some urban areas and offer better than 76, but they don't have
    any infrastructure where the population is insufficiently dense.

    Where the population is dense, they want to make money from selling the
    entertainment channels and sport that you can deliver down fibre. The
    ISP bit isn't the money maker. Same with BT on FTTC - they are an
    entertainment company now, FTTC has opened up the market no end.

    I can see the green cabinet from my study window. Had ADSL2+, about 2
    miles from exchange, getting 4 Mbps on a good day. FTTC arrived in
    Spring, now getting 76 rock solid reliable, and 20 up. (with Zen, not
    the cheapest but excellent in every respect based on my experience so far).
     
    David, Jul 23, 2015
    #10
  11. Yes. Can see why they'd change from 40/20 (which is what it was when I
    signed up) but 40/2 seems stupid.
     
    Bruce Stephens, Jul 23, 2015
    #11
  12. PeterC

    Davey Guest

    Which is precisely the question I asked in a different conversation.
     
    Davey, Jul 23, 2015
    #12
  13. PeterC

    Peter Able Guest

    Briefings I've received over the years from friends within BT back your
    thoughts. As put to me this was originally an Engineering initiative to
    displace the wiring between exchange and cabinets and simultaneously
    give everyone a better service. "Exporting the Exchange" was one phrase
    used. Then BT Marketing got to know about it....

    Anyone else recognise this?

    PA
     
    Peter Able, Jul 23, 2015
    #13
  14. PeterC

    Davey Guest

    I agree with the comment about Zen, they are an excellent company. They
    speak English, too! (Well, almost, it has a Lancashire twang to it).
     
    Davey, Jul 23, 2015
    #14
  15. PeterC

    Scott Guest

    Mine is Zen and I am getting 67.03 at the moment. I have seen it
    higher. I agree with your comments about Zen. My view is there are
    other vices I don't have so I am happy to pay extra for broadband.
     
    Scott, Jul 23, 2015
    #15
  16. PeterC

    Dick Guest

    This all happens at nil cost does it?
     
    Dick, Jul 23, 2015
    #16
  17. PeterC

    NY Guest

    I can recommend PlusNet for the same reasons, except that they have a
    Yorkshire twang :)

    PN may have their fair share of problems (I've no idea whether they are more
    or less reliable than any other ISP) but their overwhelming advantage is
    that they are staffed by English speakers (as opposed to English-speaking
    foreigners) who understand what the customer is asking and will talk to you
    as an equal, rather than managing that curious mixture of patronising
    incompetence that many companies who employ overseas call centres seem to
    achieve. And PN seem to be happy to take ownership of a problem and say
    "leave it with me - I'll sort it for you".

    When I phone a call centre about a technical problem, my style is to say
    "this is the symptom and this is what I've already tried" to short-circuit
    loads of irrelevant suggestions that I've already tried to no avail.

    PN are happy to work that way - you can almost hear them rejoicing that they
    don't have to go through the noddy stuff "yet again" - but many ISPs want to
    go back to basics and take you through the simple stuff, wasting a lot of
    time (and phone call charge) instead of cutting to the chase. And you get
    that cultural problem of "can't say no" with many companies that outsource
    overseas - you ask whether there is a problem and they will swear blind that
    there isn't or you will ask them to do something and they promise that it
    will be done, but this is a cultural thing that they don't like saying "no"
    so they use "yes" to mean "no" as well as "yes" :)

    PS: I have no connection with PN apart from being one of their satisfied
    customers.
     
    NY, Jul 23, 2015
    #17
  18. PeterC

    Martin Brown Guest

    Are you sure you are on an FTTC service? That sounds more like the speed
    I would expect for rural ADSL on about 3-4km of oldish wire.

    I haven't known anyone on FTTC with a range <1000m get less than 10M.

    Feed your phone number into this URL to get an estimate of what it
    should support:

    http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/
    The last bit of copper to the cabinet is the limiting factor. The
    shorter distance allows a more cunning faster encoding too but its range
    is limited. Unfortunately the distance to my nearest FTTC cabinet is
    slightly more than my distance 3km to the exchange.

    In a strange irony the guy who lives opposite the new FTTC box in our
    village cannot get the service because he is on the wrong side of the
    road with a direct Exchange Only line. They quoted him several £k to
    either close the road and bury a cable or install a new pole.
    They only change over the people who pay for FTTC service and any new
    connections that are beyond what the existing copper will carry. They
    have been DACSing grannies in my village a decades to free up physical
    copper circuits for ADSL. One motivation for FTTC was to get more lines
    back to the exchange without installing any new expensive copper.

    Fibre is also less likely to find its way to scrap yards. Though the
    falling price of copper has also helped a bit there too.
    Of course they charge extra for having FTTC!
     
    Martin Brown, Jul 23, 2015
    #18
  19. Occasionally Bob Pullen pops up here...

    Andy
     
    Vir Campestris, Jul 23, 2015
    #19
  20. PeterC

    Alex Heney Guest

    My cabinet is enabled, but I can't get it because I am over 4.5km from
    the cabinet.

    But I still usually get somewhere around 2.8-3.2 Mb.


    They actually install a new, second cabinet alongside the existing
    one.

    And only move over the connections fro people who have requested FTTC.
     
    Alex Heney, Jul 23, 2015
    #20
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.