How can we tell from a WiFi card spec whether the NIC is 2.4GHz or5GHz, or both?

Discussion in 'Wireless Internet' started by Ewald Böhm, Sep 7, 2015.

  1. Ewald Böhm

    Tony Hwang Guest

    I am out of this thread. You are impossible.
    When e say it is dual band it is. If you can't believe why don't you ask
    HP? So much hassle buying a laptop.
     
    Tony Hwang, Sep 8, 2015
    #21
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  2. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    I apologize and agree.
    I had posted a screen shot of all the information that HP provides:
    But that's all I have.

    The problem is, if I look at a DELL or Toshiba or Lenovo laptop, I'll
    still have the SAME PROBLEM of figuring out whether it has 5GHz or 2.4GHz
    or both, from the specs.

    So, it behooves us to be able to read the specs.

    From what Jeff said, all I can tell is (is this correct?):
    802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
    802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
    802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
    802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz only?
    802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

    Basically, if it has an "a" in the description, then it's 5GHz.
    Otherwise, it's 2.4GHz.
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #22
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  3. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    Since this thread is really about INTERPRETING specs, is this
    interpretation correct?

    1. Intel 7265 BGN + Bluetooth Version 4.0
    Would it be safe to assume this has *only* 2.4GHz?

    2. Intel 7265 AC/B/G/N Dual Band Wireless + Bluetooth Version 4.0
    Is it safe to assume this has *both* 2.4GHz & 5GHz?
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #23
  4. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    So, if 'n' can run on either, when a spec only says 'b/g/n',
    how do you know whether the 'n' is 2.4GHz or 5GHz?
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #24
  5. If you don't believe the numbers, then what do you believe?
    Nope. Office 2007 will run on Win 10:
    <http://www.microsoft.com/en-in/wind...vance&Compatibility=Unknown&LastRequested=14>
    Grab Belarc Advisor, run it on the XP machine, and PRINT the results.
    Somewhere in there, it will have the various serial numbers needed for
    the installation. If the ancient XP machine crashes without a backup
    or a list of serial numbers, she will not be able to reinstall Office
    2007 on a new machine:
    Right. With only one machine, Office 365 doesn't make economic sense.
    I was thinking of a skool, not an individual user. I still think the
    various alternatives (Google Office, LibreOffice, etc) are worth
    investigating.

    Good luck.
     
    Jeff Liebermann, Sep 8, 2015
    #25
  6. It tells me that HP marketing is clueless. The assumption is that
    anything that does "ac" will also do the lesser protocol of "a". Since
    "ac" only works on 5GHz, and nobody today makes a 5GHz only radio,
    it's a fair assumption that anything with "ac" will be dual band.
    However, that's an assumption. I tried to find the Intel card used in
    the 15z and failed. You'll probably have to ask HP pre-sales, this I
    predict will be clueless. You might try the HP support forums.
    <http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Laptop-and-Notebook-Computers/ct-p/Notebook>
     
    Jeff Liebermann, Sep 8, 2015
    #26
  7. Nope. It should be:
    802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
    802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
    802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
    802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed
    802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only
    Yes, but the "a" and "ac" are a concidence. The IEEE 802.11
    committee(s) ran out of letters when they hit "z", so the started
    using two letter suffixes as in "as", "ab", "ac", etc. There fact
    that "a" and "ac" are both "5GHz only" is purely coincidental and
    should not be relied upon to determine if something operates on 5GHz.

    As I mentioned before, if it does "ac", it should be able to do "a".
    Nobody makes a 5GHz only radio these days, so if it does 5GHz in any
    form, it should also be able to do 2.4GHz. However, these are logical
    deduction and assumptions which should not be relied upon. To be
    sure, you need to pry the Intel product number out of HP and lookup
    the specs on the Intel web site, which should have a better
    description of the products capabilities.
     
    Jeff Liebermann, Sep 8, 2015
    #27
  8. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    You have absolutely no idea what you're suggesting.

    Here is the transcript!

    Read it and then suggest I contact HP.

    This is an automated email sent from the HP Home & Home Office Store
    Server.
    The following information is a log of your session.
    Please save the log for your records.
    Your session ID for this incident is 1938843.
    Time Details
    09/06/2015 08:15:30PM System: "Welcome to hp.com sales serving the
    United States. Your chat transcript will be emailed to the email address
    that you input when registered shortly after the chat is completed."
    09/06/2015 08:15:32PM System: "If you are looking for HP product
    support, service, parts or non-US help, please visit: http://www8.hp.com/
    us/en/contact-hp/contact.html"
    09/06/2015 08:15:34PM System: "If you still need US sales or ordering
    assistance, please stay in queue. Our chat sales representative will be
    with you shortly."
    09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Session Started with Agent (Paige M)
    09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Ewald Bohm: "Does the HP 15z laptop come with
    dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz? http://www.costco.com/HP-15z-
    Laptop-|-AMD-E1-|-Windows-10.product.100222779.html"
    09/06/2015 08:16:14PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for contacting the
    hp.com Sales Center and welcome to our Labor Day Sale. My name is Paige.
    I've read your question and am ready to assist you."
    09/06/2015 08:16:59PM Agent (Paige M): "I can see you need to know if
    the HP 15z laptop come with dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz. I'd be
    glad to check on this for you."
    09/06/2015 08:17:00PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige M."
    09/06/2015 08:17:45PM Ewald Bohm: "I just want to know if the HP 15z
    laptop has a WiFi card that is dual band (i.e., it has both 2.4Ghz and
    5GHz) or not. The idiotic specification sheet on the HP web site doesn't
    say!"
    09/06/2015 08:18:04PM Ewald Bohm: "This is the spec sheet:"
    09/06/2015 08:18:05PM Ewald Bohm: "http://store.hp.com/us/en/
    ConfigureView?
    storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&catEntryId=998656&quantity=1&color=Natural
    +silver"
    09/06/2015 08:18:42PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for the link, let me
    go and check it."
    09/06/2015 08:20:08PM Ewald Bohm: "That spec sheet lists three options
    for WiFi cards, but not one mentions the band!

    802.11b/g/n WLAN [1x1] Included in price
    802.11b/g/n WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$10.00
    Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$30.00"
    09/06/2015 08:21:45PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for your patience."
    09/06/2015 08:23:06PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
    Also, is there tax and shipping to NJ?"
    09/06/2015 08:23:59PM Agent (Paige M): "The 802.11b/g/n WLAN and
    Bluetooth(R) [1x1] is 5GHz. The Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R)
    [1x1] is at 433 Mbps stream at 3GHz."
    09/06/2015 08:24:38PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive there is tax in the
    unit but not in the shipping."
    09/06/2015 08:25:37PM Agent (Paige M): "I am not entirely sure though,
    it is best to contact our Product Expert to have more details about your
    concern."
    09/06/2015 08:25:49PM Agent (Paige M): "I’ve checked all of my
    resources and I'm still unable to validate this."
    09/06/2015 08:25:54PM Agent (Paige M): "Please call 866.221.4553? An HP
    expert will be able to assist you and answer any remaining questions that
    you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00 AM - 10:00 PM Mountain,
    Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM – 10PM MT."
    09/06/2015 08:26:21PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
    I have never seen in my life a WiFi card that was 5GHz and not ALSO 2.4
    GHz; but I have seen many 2.4GHz WiFi cards that were not 5GHz. I have
    NEVER seen in my life (I don't believe it exists) a 3GHz WiFi card. Are
    you sure about those specs? Th"
    &nbsp ey make no sense, to me, and I know this stuff pretty well.
    09/06/2015 08:27:27PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
    Are the HP telephone support folks open tomorrow? (Labor Day)"
    09/06/2015 08:28:40PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive they are open but you
    can try calling."
    09/06/2015 08:29:16PM Agent (Paige M): "We did not get any instructions
    if they are closed or not. But it is better to try to call still."
    09/06/2015 08:29:31PM Agent (Paige M): "Is there anything else I can
    assist you with today?"
    09/06/2015 08:30:29PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige
    This was not satisfactory. May I talk to a supervisor? The question is
    SIMPLE. It's actually EXTREMELY SIMPLE. It's not a difficult question.
    The answer you gave makes absolutely no sense. Is there someone else I
    can speak with? This is not a dif"
    &nbsp ficult question.
    09/06/2015 08:32:30PM Ewald Bohm: "Are you there?"
    09/06/2015 08:33:15PM Ewald Bohm: "?"
    09/06/2015 08:33:31PM Agent (Vann): "Hi!"
    09/06/2015 08:35:14PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    Thank you for trying to help me.
    I am asking a simple question.
    Do you need me to repeat the question?"
    09/06/2015 08:36:41PM Ewald Bohm: "Is anyone there?"
    09/06/2015 08:36:47PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am here."
    09/06/2015 08:36:53PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the long wait."
    09/06/2015 08:37:02PM Agent (Vann): "I was reading your chat session
    with Paige."
    09/06/2015 08:40:18PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
    OK. I'll wait while you review the session so that I won't need to repeat
    anything.
    Basically, I can't believe it's this difficult to just ascertain whether
    the laptop has a WiFi card that handles both the 2.4GHz and the 5GHz
    bands.
    Also, since"
    &nbsp that simple question wasn't answered, it's hard to know if the
    answer I got regarding the shipping being free but that there was tax, is
    correct, or not.
    Neither of these questions is difficult for someone who handles basic
    (and these are EXTREMELY BASIC
    &nbsp questions) computer questions.
    09/06/2015 08:41:03PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I see that you have
    questions, Ewald."
    09/06/2015 08:41:05PM Ewald Bohm: "If the spec sheet simply gave the
    information that it should give, I wouldn't even NEED to ask these
    questions."
    09/06/2015 08:41:47PM Ewald Bohm: "I know the broken record; and I know
    that you're taught to "reflect" the customer's question - but let's just
    get the answer please (I was a customer support manager for two decades)."
    09/06/2015 08:41:54PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I understand that our website
    product information is very limited."
    09/06/2015 08:43:31PM Agent (Vann): "The shipping charge is zero and
    that is for free."
    09/06/2015 08:44:03PM Agent (Vann): "Sales tax will apply to the
    product price itself and its computation is based on the shipping zip
    code and state."
    09/06/2015 08:45:12PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    Thank you for confirming that the sales tax is based on where the item
    will be shipped and that the shipping is free.
    Now all we need to know is whether the three WiFi card options available
    for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both."
    09/06/2015 08:45:30PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am actually checking on
    that."
    09/06/2015 08:46:04PM Agent (Vann): "Honestly, our tools and resources
    are very limited to answer your question."
    09/06/2015 08:46:16PM Agent (Vann): "I totally understand why the agent
    referred you to our product expert."
    09/06/2015 08:46:25PM Agent (Vann): "However, let own this question and
    I will this to you."
    09/06/2015 08:46:28PM Agent (Vann): "*answer."
    09/06/2015 08:46:35PM Agent (Vann): "Now, can you give me 1-2 minutes
    of your time."
    09/06/2015 08:46:41PM Agent (Vann): "I am checking on something here."
    09/06/2015 08:47:43PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald,"
    09/06/2015 08:47:46PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for that."
    09/06/2015 08:48:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I am here - and will wait."
    09/06/2015 08:49:00PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I can tell this by the
    decription of the WLAN card. Everytime you see a wlan card listed as b/g/
    n, it is a single band (2.4 GHz) card."
    09/06/2015 08:49:58PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann"
    09/06/2015 08:50:03PM Agent (Vann): "I found more information here."
    09/06/2015 08:52:01PM Ewald Bohm: "oooPS.
    Hi VAnn,
    I believe you can have 5GHz on "n"but not on "g" but I can check that
    out. Certainly "ac" would benefit from 5GHz, but are you saying that only
    the "ac" card is 5GHz?"
    09/06/2015 08:52:54PM Agent (Vann): "I am verifying that."
    09/06/2015 08:53:17PM Agent (Vann): "I cannot confirm it yet and this
    is based on something that I am not sure of."
    09/06/2015 08:54:33PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    Look at this web site (http://pocketnow.com/2014/01/23/5ghz-wifi).
    Notice that "b" and "g" are ONLY 2.4GHz - but - notice that either "n" or
    "ac" is also 5GHz."
    09/06/2015 08:57:20PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks!"
    09/06/2015 08:57:32PM Agent (Vann): "Let me check that."
    09/06/2015 08:59:32PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    So, we still don't have the answer, since clearly both "n" and "ac" can
    do 2.4GHz and 5GHz - the only difference is that "n" can do either one at
    a time while "ac" does both at the same time - but that's not my question.
    My question is whether th"
    &nbsp e "n" and "ac" cards from HP for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz
    or both.
    Thanks for "owning" this issue to the conclusion - since - it's actually
    an easy question - for someone who has the spec to answer.
    In fact, I fault HP for not putting that answer on
    &nbsp the web site since it's a CRITICAL question to ask!
    09/06/2015 09:00:18PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I see where you are coming
    from."
    09/06/2015 09:00:53PM Agent (Vann): "I even sent a quick email to the
    marketing department and web content team to put a brief pertinent
    description of each wi-fi options."
    09/06/2015 09:04:48PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    As I had said, I was a customer-support manager for twenty years and I
    found only about 10% of the support team would take the time to solve
    long-term problems such as missing information in a web page; therefore,
    I do appreciate that you are in"
    &nbsp the top 10% for "owning" the problem, and I appreciate that.
    I'm still not sure though, whether the specific cards available for this
    laptop have "both" 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands, since we have ascertained that
    "n" can be either (just not at the same time), w
    &nbsp hile "ac" also can be either (but if it has both, it can do both
    at the same time).
    So, the FREQUENCY BAND is a critical piece of data that a person needs to
    figure out if their laptop will connect to the "n" or "ac" 2.4GHz or 5GHz
    bands.
    09/06/2015 09:04:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, as far as what I understood
    in my readings here. You need a dual band that can support both 2.5 and 5
    Ghz."
    09/06/2015 09:05:26PM Agent (Vann): "This is what you need WLAN 802.11
    ac 2x2 ."
    09/06/2015 09:05:35PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    Yes. I will ONLY BUY a dual-band card. I am just trying to figure out
    which card(s) that fit that laptop are dual band."
    09/06/2015 09:05:50PM Ewald Bohm: "Note: It's 2.4GHz and not 2.5GHz."
    09/06/2015 09:06:10PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the typo error."
    09/06/2015 09:06:18PM Agent (Vann): "So you are saying that your router
    has a dual band?"
    09/06/2015 09:08:41PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
    I know MANY (most) "ac" cards will be dual band. But, remember, an "ac"
    card can also be one or the other. So, I am just trying to CONFIRM
    whether the "n" and "ac" cards you offer actually make use of both bands.
    (I know that the "n" can make use"
    &nbsp of either band, and so can the "ac", with the only difference not
    mattering to this question that "ac" can do it simultaneously).
    But, "ac" can't do it simultaneously if it doesn't have both bands, and
    "n" cards can be of three types (1) only 2.4, (2) o
    &nbsp nly 5Ghz, or (3) both 2.4GHz and 5GHz.
    As for my router, it is dual band (both 2.4GHz and 5Ghz) and it is an
    AC1750.
    09/06/2015 09:14:10PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    The 802.11n spec allows up to 4 transmit and four receive antennas
    (802.11n supports up to 4x4), so, again, just knowing it's 2x2 or 4x4
    does not tell me what the bands are."
    09/06/2015 09:17:33PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I am sorry if I kept you
    waiting."
    09/06/2015 09:17:40PM Ewald Bohm: "I'm here ..."
    09/06/2015 09:18:06PM Agent (Vann): "This is overly complicated and it
    would be better you consult our product expert."
    09/06/2015 09:18:23PM Agent (Vann): "As far as I know that if it has a
    1x1 that is a single band which can support up to 2.4ghz/"
    09/06/2015 09:19:36PM Ewald Bohm: "The 1x1 means one (dedicated)
    transmit antenna and 1 (dedicated) receive antenna; the antenna itself
    can be any frequency (either 2.4GHz or 5GHz) but almost all the time, it
    is 2.4GHz (I agree) but it does not have to be since the 1x1 is
    indicating the de"
    &nbsp dicated "channels" and NOT the frequency band!
    09/06/2015 09:20:46PM Agent (Vann): "It looks you've done more research
    on this and you get a lot of understanding how these things work."
    09/06/2015 09:21:36PM Agent (Vann): "Can you check this link http://
    www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/next-gen-80211ac-
    wifi-for-dummies.pdf"
    09/06/2015 09:21:58PM Ewald Bohm: "I know that the 2x2 has two
    dedicated "channels" (i.e., antennae), 2 for transmit and 2 for receive.
    But, again, that does not indicate the FREQUENCY. It "could" mean that
    they are using 2 frequencies - but - it could also mean that they're NOT
    using 2 d"
    &nbsp ifferent frequencies.
    09/06/2015 09:22:07PM Ewald Bohm: "checking the link ..."
    09/06/2015 09:22:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Looking for the specific page ..."
    09/06/2015 09:24:08PM Agent (Vann): "I also read from the HP Forums."
    09/06/2015 09:24:09PM Agent (Vann): "http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/
    Wireless-Internet-Home-Networking/WiFi-Connections-HP-laptop-unable-to-
    find-5Ghz-wireless/td-p/3300523"
    09/06/2015 09:24:31PM Agent (Vann): "A dual band card would be listed
    as either a/b/g/n or a/g/n."
    09/06/2015 09:25:00PM Ewald Bohm: "VAnn, you'll notice that, on page 10
    of the wifi for dummies, it confirms what I said, which is (verbatim):
    "In the vernacular of the new multispeed Wi-Fi stan
    -
    dards, the number of send and receive antennas and
    stream configurations are noted as 1x1 (o"
    &nbsp ne antenna
    supporting one data stream), 2x2 (two antennas sup
    -
    porting two data streams), and 3x3. Table 2-2 compares
    the performance of antenna and stream configurations
    in the 802.11n and 802.11ac standards"
    09/06/2015 09:25:31PM Ewald Bohm: "So, the 2x2 just means the number of
    antennas. It tells us NOTHING about the frequency."
    09/06/2015 09:26:15PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I will have to refer this
    to our product expert and I shall email you the answer."
    09/06/2015 09:26:38PM Agent (Vann): "This would consume so much of our
    time and this is something that I cannot confirm."
    09/06/2015 09:26:44PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi VAnn,
    An "n" card can be dual band - but an "n" card can also be single band.
    That is why the SPECIFICATION is so important. We'd never have to ASK the
    question if the spec simply said what it should say!"
    09/06/2015 09:26:48PM Agent (Vann): "I admired how you are really want
    to get the answer of this."
    09/06/2015 09:28:23PM Agent (Vann): "I will email the product expert
    with your questions."
    09/06/2015 09:28:24PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
    If the specifications were written correctly, we'd never have to ask. In
    the book you kindly referenced, you'll see this exact quote on the first
    line of page 11:
    "Wi-Fi works over two spectrum bands: 2.4 GHz and
    5 GHz. Older 802.11bgn uses the"
    &nbsp 2.4 GHz frequency"
    09/06/2015 09:28:35PM Agent (Vann): "Can you summarize your questions
    now so I can forward this now."
    09/06/2015 09:28:54PM Agent (Vann): "I will be able to email you within
    24-248hrs once I get a reply from the product expert."
    09/06/2015 09:29:09PM Ewald Bohm: "Later, in that same page, it says
    what I'm trying to tell you, which is that "n" can be either 5GHz or
    2.4GHz or both."
    09/06/2015 09:29:14PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyond on my basic
    technical knowledge, Ewald."
    09/06/2015 09:29:23PM Ewald Bohm: "OK ... gimme a sec... to simplify..."
    09/06/2015 09:30:12PM Agent (Vann): "Sure."
    09/06/2015 09:32:36PM Agent (Vann): "Please do as this already rambling
    in my head."
    09/06/2015 09:33:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I would like to know if the three
    available WiFi cards for the HP 15z laptop (http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/
    Laptops/hp-pavilion-15z-laptop-m7d88av-1#!&TabName=specs) are 2.4GHz,
    5GHz, or both.
    I realize that the "n" 802.11 spec can be either only 2.4GHz o"
    &nbsp r 5GHz or both (just not at the same time); and I am aware that
    the 802.11 "ac" spec also allows for either only 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both
    (possibly at the same time); so the fact that it's "ac" or "n" tells me
    NOTHING about the frequency band!
    In addition,
    &nbsp I realize that 1x1 means one dedicated transmit antenna per
    channel and 1 dedicated receive antenna per channel, just as 2x2 means 2
    dedicated transmit antennas per data channel and 2 dedicated receive
    antennas per data channel, which again, tells me NOTH
    &nbsp ING about the frequency band!
    09/06/2015 09:34:06PM Agent (Vann): "I will take note of this and what
    you exactly write here will be forwarded to the product expert."
    09/06/2015 09:34:31PM Agent (Vann): "I am very sorry if I failed to
    answer by myself."
    09/06/2015 09:34:57PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyong my power
    and knowledge. I really to get an answer for you immediately but this mix
    up in my head."
    09/06/2015 09:35:06PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for the typo error."
    09/06/2015 09:36:01PM Ewald Bohm: "OK. Thank you Vann,
    I was hoping to purchase the laptop, on the web, tonight, but I will
    await the response from your technical expert.
    I don't consider this a difficult question because EVERYONE would want to
    know what frequency the WiFi card operates in"
    &nbsp - and - you can't tell from the fact that it's "n" or "ac" or 1x1
    or 2x2, etc.
    I have never seen any WiFi card advertised that didn't tell the user the
    FREQUENCY (so I am happy that you forwarded information to the web-
    marketing team to let them know the
    &nbsp ir web pages are missing critical information).
    09/06/2015 09:36:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, this is not a common
    questions from most of our customers and you are the only person ask
    this. that is why I am so amazed how concern and smart you are."
    09/06/2015 09:37:48PM Agent (Vann): "You can actually get an answer
    immediately on this if you will just call now our Product Expert on this
    number 866.221.4553. An HP expert will be able to assist you and answer
    any remaining questions that you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00
    AM -"
    &nbsp 10:00 PM Mountain, Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM –
    10PM MT.
    09/06/2015 09:38:34PM Agent (Vann): "We also dont want to confirm any
    answers to you if the information is not coming from the official HP
    source."
    09/06/2015 09:38:48PM Agent (Vann): "I only got the information
    provided earlier from my research."
    09/06/2015 09:39:15PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    Are you sure they are open now? It is 10:45pm mountain time on a Sunday
    (and tomorrow is Labor Day, which is a national holiday in the USA) so
    I'm not even sure they will be OPEN tomorrow."
    09/06/2015 09:39:29PM Agent (Vann): "I shall email you with the answer
    to this address ."
    09/06/2015 09:40:11PM Agent (Vann): "Probably they are now close and I
    am checking earlier with the upper management what services or
    departments will be open tomorrow."
    09/06/2015 09:40:20PM Agent (Vann): "Anyway, please wait for my email
    within 24-48hrs."
    09/06/2015 09:42:03PM Ewald Bohm: "OK., Thanks Vann for your help. I
    just want the information so that I don't make a mistake when ordering
    the laptop on the web. I will await your email."
    09/06/2015 09:42:16PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I completely understand."
    09/06/2015 09:42:26PM Agent (Vann): "I know that you want to make
    things certain in your purchase."
    09/06/2015 09:42:41PM Agent (Vann): "Since you don't need any further
    assistance, would it be okay if I close this chat?"
    09/06/2015 09:43:17PM Ewald Bohm: "Yes. Thanks for your help. I will
    await your email. If they are open tomorrow (they probably are not) then
    I will also try to call them."
    09/06/2015 09:43:46PM Agent (Vann): "You are welcome. I am sorry we end
    this chat now without adequate resolution of your concerns."
    09/06/2015 09:43:52PM Ewald Bohm: "I realize it's 10:15 am in India,
    so, I hope you have a good rest of your day!"
    09/06/2015 09:43:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Ciao,"
    09/06/2015 09:44:07PM Agent (Vann): "I will also make a further
    research on this on my own to learn from it."
    09/06/2015 09:44:14PM Agent (Vann): "You too."
    09/06/2015 09:44:19PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks for your time today."
    09/06/2015 09:44:25PM Agent (Vann): "It was really a good chat
    experienced."
    09/06/2015 09:44:28PM Agent (Vann): "We appreciate you contacting us
    with your concerns. If you have additional questions regarding our
    products, you can contact us at 1-888-222-0029 from 4am-11pm Pacific,
    Monday- Sunday."
    09/06/2015 09:44:32PM Agent (Vann): "Thank you for choosing HP. We
    appreciate your business."
    09/06/2015 09:44:34PM Session Ended
    If you require further assistance, you may contact us at
    is an automated email sent from the HP Home & Home
    Office Store Server. The following information is a log of your session.
    Please save the log for your records.
    Your session ID for this incident is 1938843.
    Time Details
    09/06/2015 08:15:30PM System: "Welcome to hp.com sales serving the
    United States. Your chat transcript will be emailed to the email address
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    09/06/2015 08:15:32PM System: "If you are looking for HP product
    support, service, parts or non-US help, please visit: http://www8.hp.com/
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    09/06/2015 08:15:34PM System: "If you still need US sales or ordering
    assistance, please stay in queue. Our chat sales representative will be
    with you shortly."
    09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Session Started with Agent (Paige M)
    09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Ewald Bohm: "Does the HP 15z laptop come with
    dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz? http://www.costco.com/HP-15z-
    Laptop-|-AMD-E1-|-Windows-10.product.100222779.html"
    09/06/2015 08:16:14PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for contacting the
    hp.com Sales Center and welcome to our Labor Day Sale. My name is Paige.
    I've read your question and am ready to assist you."
    09/06/2015 08:16:59PM Agent (Paige M): "I can see you need to know if
    the HP 15z laptop come with dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz. I'd be
    glad to check on this for you."
    09/06/2015 08:17:00PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige M."
    09/06/2015 08:17:45PM Ewald Bohm: "I just want to know if the HP 15z
    laptop has a WiFi card that is dual band (i.e., it has both 2.4Ghz and
    5GHz) or not. The idiotic specification sheet on the HP web site doesn't
    say!"
    09/06/2015 08:18:04PM Ewald Bohm: "This is the spec sheet:"
    09/06/2015 08:18:05PM Ewald Bohm: "http://store.hp.com/us/en/
    ConfigureView?
    storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&catEntryId=998656&quantity=1&color=Natural
    +silver"
    09/06/2015 08:18:42PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for the link, let me
    go and check it."
    09/06/2015 08:20:08PM Ewald Bohm: "That spec sheet lists three options
    for WiFi cards, but not one mentions the band!

    802.11b/g/n WLAN [1x1] Included in price
    802.11b/g/n WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$10.00
    Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$30.00"
    09/06/2015 08:21:45PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for your patience."
    09/06/2015 08:23:06PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
    Also, is there tax and shipping to NJ?"
    09/06/2015 08:23:59PM Agent (Paige M): "The 802.11b/g/n WLAN and
    Bluetooth(R) [1x1] is 5GHz. The Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R)
    [1x1] is at 433 Mbps stream at 3GHz."
    09/06/2015 08:24:38PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive there is tax in the
    unit but not in the shipping."
    09/06/2015 08:25:37PM Agent (Paige M): "I am not entirely sure though,
    it is best to contact our Product Expert to have more details about your
    concern."
    09/06/2015 08:25:49PM Agent (Paige M): "I’ve checked all of my
    resources and I'm still unable to validate this."
    09/06/2015 08:25:54PM Agent (Paige M): "Please call 866.221.4553? An HP
    expert will be able to assist you and answer any remaining questions that
    you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00 AM - 10:00 PM Mountain,
    Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM – 10PM MT."
    09/06/2015 08:26:21PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
    I have never seen in my life a WiFi card that was 5GHz and not ALSO 2.4
    GHz; but I have seen many 2.4GHz WiFi cards that were not 5GHz. I have
    NEVER seen in my life (I don't believe it exists) a 3GHz WiFi card. Are
    you sure about those specs? Th"
    &nbsp ey make no sense, to me, and I know this stuff pretty well.
    09/06/2015 08:27:27PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
    Are the HP telephone support folks open tomorrow? (Labor Day)"
    09/06/2015 08:28:40PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive they are open but you
    can try calling."
    09/06/2015 08:29:16PM Agent (Paige M): "We did not get any instructions
    if they are closed or not. But it is better to try to call still."
    09/06/2015 08:29:31PM Agent (Paige M): "Is there anything else I can
    assist you with today?"
    09/06/2015 08:30:29PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige
    This was not satisfactory. May I talk to a supervisor? The question is
    SIMPLE. It's actually EXTREMELY SIMPLE. It's not a difficult question.
    The answer you gave makes absolutely no sense. Is there someone else I
    can speak with? This is not a dif"
    &nbsp ficult question.
    09/06/2015 08:32:30PM Ewald Bohm: "Are you there?"
    09/06/2015 08:33:15PM Ewald Bohm: "?"
    09/06/2015 08:33:31PM Agent (Vann): "Hi!"
    09/06/2015 08:35:14PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    Thank you for trying to help me.
    I am asking a simple question.
    Do you need me to repeat the question?"
    09/06/2015 08:36:41PM Ewald Bohm: "Is anyone there?"
    09/06/2015 08:36:47PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am here."
    09/06/2015 08:36:53PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the long wait."
    09/06/2015 08:37:02PM Agent (Vann): "I was reading your chat session
    with Paige."
    09/06/2015 08:40:18PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
    OK. I'll wait while you review the session so that I won't need to repeat
    anything.
    Basically, I can't believe it's this difficult to just ascertain whether
    the laptop has a WiFi card that handles both the 2.4GHz and the 5GHz
    bands.
    Also, since"
    &nbsp that simple question wasn't answered, it's hard to know if the
    answer I got regarding the shipping being free but that there was tax, is
    correct, or not.
    Neither of these questions is difficult for someone who handles basic
    (and these are EXTREMELY BASIC
    &nbsp questions) computer questions.
    09/06/2015 08:41:03PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I see that you have
    questions, Ewald."
    09/06/2015 08:41:05PM Ewald Bohm: "If the spec sheet simply gave the
    information that it should give, I wouldn't even NEED to ask these
    questions."
    09/06/2015 08:41:47PM Ewald Bohm: "I know the broken record; and I know
    that you're taught to "reflect" the customer's question - but let's just
    get the answer please (I was a customer support manager for two decades)."
    09/06/2015 08:41:54PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I understand that our website
    product information is very limited."
    09/06/2015 08:43:31PM Agent (Vann): "The shipping charge is zero and
    that is for free."
    09/06/2015 08:44:03PM Agent (Vann): "Sales tax will apply to the
    product price itself and its computation is based on the shipping zip
    code and state."
    09/06/2015 08:45:12PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    Thank you for confirming that the sales tax is based on where the item
    will be shipped and that the shipping is free.
    Now all we need to know is whether the three WiFi card options available
    for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both."
    09/06/2015 08:45:30PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am actually checking on
    that."
    09/06/2015 08:46:04PM Agent (Vann): "Honestly, our tools and resources
    are very limited to answer your question."
    09/06/2015 08:46:16PM Agent (Vann): "I totally understand why the agent
    referred you to our product expert."
    09/06/2015 08:46:25PM Agent (Vann): "However, let own this question and
    I will this to you."
    09/06/2015 08:46:28PM Agent (Vann): "*answer."
    09/06/2015 08:46:35PM Agent (Vann): "Now, can you give me 1-2 minutes
    of your time."
    09/06/2015 08:46:41PM Agent (Vann): "I am checking on something here."
    09/06/2015 08:47:43PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald,"
    09/06/2015 08:47:46PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for that."
    09/06/2015 08:48:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I am here - and will wait."
    09/06/2015 08:49:00PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I can tell this by the
    decription of the WLAN card. Everytime you see a wlan card listed as b/g/
    n, it is a single band (2.4 GHz) card."
    09/06/2015 08:49:58PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann"
    09/06/2015 08:50:03PM Agent (Vann): "I found more information here."
    09/06/2015 08:52:01PM Ewald Bohm: "oooPS.
    Hi VAnn,
    I believe you can have 5GHz on "n"but not on "g" but I can check that
    out. Certainly "ac" would benefit from 5GHz, but are you saying that only
    the "ac" card is 5GHz?"
    09/06/2015 08:52:54PM Agent (Vann): "I am verifying that."
    09/06/2015 08:53:17PM Agent (Vann): "I cannot confirm it yet and this
    is based on something that I am not sure of."
    09/06/2015 08:54:33PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    Look at this web site (http://pocketnow.com/2014/01/23/5ghz-wifi).
    Notice that "b" and "g" are ONLY 2.4GHz - but - notice that either "n" or
    "ac" is also 5GHz."
    09/06/2015 08:57:20PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks!"
    09/06/2015 08:57:32PM Agent (Vann): "Let me check that."
    09/06/2015 08:59:32PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    So, we still don't have the answer, since clearly both "n" and "ac" can
    do 2.4GHz and 5GHz - the only difference is that "n" can do either one at
    a time while "ac" does both at the same time - but that's not my question.
    My question is whether th"
    &nbsp e "n" and "ac" cards from HP for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz
    or both.
    Thanks for "owning" this issue to the conclusion - since - it's actually
    an easy question - for someone who has the spec to answer.
    In fact, I fault HP for not putting that answer on
    &nbsp the web site since it's a CRITICAL question to ask!
    09/06/2015 09:00:18PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I see where you are coming
    from."
    09/06/2015 09:00:53PM Agent (Vann): "I even sent a quick email to the
    marketing department and web content team to put a brief pertinent
    description of each wi-fi options."
    09/06/2015 09:04:48PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    As I had said, I was a customer-support manager for twenty years and I
    found only about 10% of the support team would take the time to solve
    long-term problems such as missing information in a web page; therefore,
    I do appreciate that you are in"
    &nbsp the top 10% for "owning" the problem, and I appreciate that.
    I'm still not sure though, whether the specific cards available for this
    laptop have "both" 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands, since we have ascertained that
    "n" can be either (just not at the same time), w
    &nbsp hile "ac" also can be either (but if it has both, it can do both
    at the same time).
    So, the FREQUENCY BAND is a critical piece of data that a person needs to
    figure out if their laptop will connect to the "n" or "ac" 2.4GHz or 5GHz
    bands.
    09/06/2015 09:04:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, as far as what I understood
    in my readings here. You need a dual band that can support both 2.5 and 5
    Ghz."
    09/06/2015 09:05:26PM Agent (Vann): "This is what you need WLAN 802.11
    ac 2x2 ."
    09/06/2015 09:05:35PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    Yes. I will ONLY BUY a dual-band card. I am just trying to figure out
    which card(s) that fit that laptop are dual band."
    09/06/2015 09:05:50PM Ewald Bohm: "Note: It's 2.4GHz and not 2.5GHz."
    09/06/2015 09:06:10PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the typo error."
    09/06/2015 09:06:18PM Agent (Vann): "So you are saying that your router
    has a dual band?"
    09/06/2015 09:08:41PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
    I know MANY (most) "ac" cards will be dual band. But, remember, an "ac"
    card can also be one or the other. So, I am just trying to CONFIRM
    whether the "n" and "ac" cards you offer actually make use of both bands.
    (I know that the "n" can make use"
    &nbsp of either band, and so can the "ac", with the only difference not
    mattering to this question that "ac" can do it simultaneously).
    But, "ac" can't do it simultaneously if it doesn't have both bands, and
    "n" cards can be of three types (1) only 2.4, (2) o
    &nbsp nly 5Ghz, or (3) both 2.4GHz and 5GHz.
    As for my router, it is dual band (both 2.4GHz and 5Ghz) and it is an
    AC1750.
    09/06/2015 09:14:10PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
    The 802.11n spec allows up to 4 transmit and four receive antennas
    (802.11n supports up to 4x4), so, again, just knowing it's 2x2 or 4x4
    does not tell me what the bands are."
    09/06/2015 09:17:33PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I am sorry if I kept you
    waiting."
    09/06/2015 09:17:40PM Ewald Bohm: "I'm here ..."
    09/06/2015 09:18:06PM Agent (Vann): "This is overly complicated and it
    would be better you consult our product expert."
    09/06/2015 09:18:23PM Agent (Vann): "As far as I know that if it has a
    1x1 that is a single band which can support up to 2.4ghz/"
    09/06/2015 09:19:36PM Ewald Bohm: "The 1x1 means one (dedicated)
    transmit antenna and 1 (dedicated) receive antenna; the antenna itself
    can be any frequency (either 2.4GHz or 5GHz) but almost all the time, it
    is 2.4GHz (I agree) but it does not have to be since the 1x1 is
    indicating the de"
    &nbsp dicated "channels" and NOT the frequency band!
    09/06/2015 09:20:46PM Agent (Vann): "It looks you've done more research
    on this and you get a lot of understanding how these things work."
    09/06/2015 09:21:36PM Agent (Vann): "Can you check this link http://
    www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/next-gen-80211ac-
    wifi-for-dummies.pdf"
    09/06/2015 09:21:58PM Ewald Bohm: "I know that the 2x2 has two
    dedicated "channels" (i.e., antennae), 2 for transmit and 2 for receive.
    But, again, that does not indicate the FREQUENCY. It "could" mean that
    they are using 2 frequencies - but - it could also mean that they're NOT
    using 2 d"
    &nbsp ifferent frequencies.
    09/06/2015 09:22:07PM Ewald Bohm: "checking the link ..."
    09/06/2015 09:22:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Looking for the specific page ..."
    09/06/2015 09:24:08PM Agent (Vann): "I also read from the HP Forums."
    09/06/2015 09:24:09PM Agent (Vann): "http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/
    Wireless-Internet-Home-Networking/WiFi-Connections-HP-laptop-unable-to-
    find-5Ghz-wireless/td-p/3300523"
    09/06/2015 09:24:31PM Agent (Vann): "A dual band card would be listed
    as either a/b/g/n or a/g/n."
    09/06/2015 09:25:00PM Ewald Bohm: "VAnn, you'll notice that, on page 10
    of the wifi for dummies, it confirms what I said, which is (verbatim):
    "In the vernacular of the new multispeed Wi-Fi stan
    -
    dards, the number of send and receive antennas and
    stream configurations are noted as 1x1 (o"
    &nbsp ne antenna
    supporting one data stream), 2x2 (two antennas sup
    -
    porting two data streams), and 3x3. Table 2-2 compares
    the performance of antenna and stream configurations
    in the 802.11n and 802.11ac standards"
    09/06/2015 09:25:31PM Ewald Bohm: "So, the 2x2 just means the number of
    antennas. It tells us NOTHING about the frequency."
    09/06/2015 09:26:15PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I will have to refer this
    to our product expert and I shall email you the answer."
    09/06/2015 09:26:38PM Agent (Vann): "This would consume so much of our
    time and this is something that I cannot confirm."
    09/06/2015 09:26:44PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi VAnn,
    An "n" card can be dual band - but an "n" card can also be single band.
    That is why the SPECIFICATION is so important. We'd never have to ASK the
    question if the spec simply said what it should say!"
    09/06/2015 09:26:48PM Agent (Vann): "I admired how you are really want
    to get the answer of this."
    09/06/2015 09:28:23PM Agent (Vann): "I will email the product expert
    with your questions."
    09/06/2015 09:28:24PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
    If the specifications were written correctly, we'd never have to ask. In
    the book you kindly referenced, you'll see this exact quote on the first
    line of page 11:
    "Wi-Fi works over two spectrum bands: 2.4 GHz and
    5 GHz. Older 802.11bgn uses the"
    &nbsp 2.4 GHz frequency"
    09/06/2015 09:28:35PM Agent (Vann): "Can you summarize your questions
    now so I can forward this now."
    09/06/2015 09:28:54PM Agent (Vann): "I will be able to email you within
    24-248hrs once I get a reply from the product expert."
    09/06/2015 09:29:09PM Ewald Bohm: "Later, in that same page, it says
    what I'm trying to tell you, which is that "n" can be either 5GHz or
    2.4GHz or both."
    09/06/2015 09:29:14PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyond on my basic
    technical knowledge, Ewald."
    09/06/2015 09:29:23PM Ewald Bohm: "OK ... gimme a sec... to simplify..."
    09/06/2015 09:30:12PM Agent (Vann): "Sure."
    09/06/2015 09:32:36PM Agent (Vann): "Please do as this already rambling
    in my head."
    09/06/2015 09:33:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I would like to know if the three
    available WiFi cards for the HP 15z laptop (http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/
    Laptops/hp-pavilion-15z-laptop-m7d88av-1#!&TabName=specs) are 2.4GHz,
    5GHz, or both.
    I realize that the "n" 802.11 spec can be either only 2.4GHz o"
    &nbsp r 5GHz or both (just not at the same time); and I am aware that
    the 802.11 "ac" spec also allows for either only 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both
    (possibly at the same time); so the fact that it's "ac" or "n" tells me
    NOTHING about the frequency band!
    In addition,
    &nbsp I realize that 1x1 means one dedicated transmit antenna per
    channel and 1 dedicated receive antenna per channel, just as 2x2 means 2
    dedicated transmit antennas per data channel and 2 dedicated receive
    antennas per data channel, which again, tells me NOTH
    &nbsp ING about the frequency band!
    09/06/2015 09:34:06PM Agent (Vann): "I will take note of this and what
    you exactly write here will be forwarded to the product expert."
    09/06/2015 09:34:31PM Agent (Vann): "I am very sorry if I failed to
    answer by myself."
    09/06/2015 09:34:57PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyong my power
    and knowledge. I really to get an answer for you immediately but this mix
    up in my head."
    09/06/2015 09:35:06PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for the typo error."
    09/06/2015 09:36:01PM Ewald Bohm: "OK. Thank you Vann,
    I was hoping to purchase the laptop, on the web, tonight, but I will
    await the response from your technical expert.
    I don't consider this a difficult question because EVERYONE would want to
    know what frequency the WiFi card operates in"
    &nbsp - and - you can't tell from the fact that it's "n" or "ac" or 1x1
    or 2x2, etc.
    I have never seen any WiFi card advertised that didn't tell the user the
    FREQUENCY (so I am happy that you forwarded information to the web-
    marketing team to let them know the
    &nbsp ir web pages are missing critical information).
    09/06/2015 09:36:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, this is not a common
    questions from most of our customers and you are the only person ask
    this. that is why I am so amazed how concern and smart you are."
    09/06/2015 09:37:48PM Agent (Vann): "You can actually get an answer
    immediately on this if you will just call now our Product Expert on this
    number 866.221.4553. An HP expert will be able to assist you and answer
    any remaining questions that you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00
    AM -"
    &nbsp 10:00 PM Mountain, Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM –
    10PM MT.
    09/06/2015 09:38:34PM Agent (Vann): "We also dont want to confirm any
    answers to you if the information is not coming from the official HP
    source."
    09/06/2015 09:38:48PM Agent (Vann): "I only got the information
    provided earlier from my research."
    09/06/2015 09:39:15PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
    Are you sure they are open now? It is 10:45pm mountain time on a Sunday
    (and tomorrow is Labor Day, which is a national holiday in the USA) so
    I'm not even sure they will be OPEN tomorrow."
    09/06/2015 09:39:29PM Agent (Vann): "I shall email you with the answer
    to this address ."
    09/06/2015 09:40:11PM Agent (Vann): "Probably they are now close and I
    am checking earlier with the upper management what services or
    departments will be open tomorrow."
    09/06/2015 09:40:20PM Agent (Vann): "Anyway, please wait for my email
    within 24-48hrs."
    09/06/2015 09:42:03PM Ewald Bohm: "OK., Thanks Vann for your help. I
    just want the information so that I don't make a mistake when ordering
    the laptop on the web. I will await your email."
    09/06/2015 09:42:16PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I completely understand."
    09/06/2015 09:42:26PM Agent (Vann): "I know that you want to make
    things certain in your purchase."
    09/06/2015 09:42:41PM Agent (Vann): "Since you don't need any further
    assistance, would it be okay if I close this chat?"
    09/06/2015 09:43:17PM Ewald Bohm: "Yes. Thanks for your help. I will
    await your email. If they are open tomorrow (they probably are not) then
    I will also try to call them."
    09/06/2015 09:43:46PM Agent (Vann): "You are welcome. I am sorry we end
    this chat now without adequate resolution of your concerns."
    09/06/2015 09:43:52PM Ewald Bohm: "I realize it's 10:15 am in India,
    so, I hope you have a good rest of your day!"
    09/06/2015 09:43:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Ciao,"
    09/06/2015 09:44:07PM Agent (Vann): "I will also make a further
    research on this on my own to learn from it."
    09/06/2015 09:44:14PM Agent (Vann): "You too."
    09/06/2015 09:44:19PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks for your time today."
    09/06/2015 09:44:25PM Agent (Vann): "It was really a good chat
    experienced."
    09/06/2015 09:44:28PM Agent (Vann): "We appreciate you contacting us
    with your concerns. If you have additional questions regarding our
    products, you can contact us at 1-888-222-0029 from 4am-11pm Pacific,
    Monday- Sunday."
    09/06/2015 09:44:32PM Agent (Vann): "Thank you for choosing HP. We
    appreciate your business."
    09/06/2015 09:44:34PM Session Ended
    If you require further assistance, you may contact us at
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #28
  9. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    You have to realize what you're saying, & that your suggestion can't work.

    If you were suggesting to "me" to use openoffice or staroffice or
    libreoffice or framemaker or numbers-pages-keynote or polaris office or
    kingston office or wps office or any number of freeware office look-alike
    apps, then your suggestion might actually make a lot of sense.

    But, you can't take the average extremely non-technical grade-school
    teacher, and seriously suggest they use a free office-like equivalent,
    when they have enough trouble just getting used to the ribbon changing
    from one Microsoft office version to another.

    They complain when they have to open an office 2013 doc in office 2007,
    and they fail at that, half the time, without help.

    They can't even print something as simples as a protected PDF without my
    help.

    So, if you're suggesting that free office-look-alikes are "equivalent" to
    office for such a person, then you fundamentally don't understand people.

    It's just not gonna happen.
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #29
  10. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    You missed the point.

    I'm trying to *recommend* a laptop for a teacher who is not technical.
    I started at Costco, but the Costco laptop wasn't dual band.
    I went to the HP site and can't figure out if it's dual band.

    If it's dual band, I'll recommend the teacher buys it.
    If not, I will choose another laptop.

    I don't actually care what laptop she gets.
    I'm just trying to help her.

    The laptop has to be about the right size & shape.
    It has to be within her price range (around $500 out the door).
    It has to have MS Office on it.
    It has to be Windows.

    Everything else, she's leaving up to me.
    One thing I'm requiring is dual band 2.4GHz & 5GHz simultaneously
    (with backward compatibility).

    All I'm trying to find out is if this HP 15z laptop is dual band.
    It's amazingly difficult to find this out.

    I'm online right now with a supposedly-special HP customer support sales
    hotline (888-999-4747), and they STILL don't know the answer.
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #30
  11. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    Thank you Jeff for clarifying this spec:
    http://i.imgur.com/hBcFWkQ.jpg

    After a half hour on three separate HP calls, I learned something (I
    think) that nobody told me yet...
    1. HP Tech Support 888-222-0029
    2. Advanced HP Tech Support 866-221-4553
    3. HP Shopping Team 888-999-4747

    HP: They first told me the ac card was just ac.
    ME: I told them that this was unlikely, so I asked them to doublecheck.

    HP: After a long wait, they told me the "ac" card was backwards
    compatible, but it was only 5GHz.
    ME: I told them that was impossible.

    HP: Then, after another long wait, they told me it was NOT dual band, but
    that it had both bands.
    ME: I told them that this confused me, and I asked them to clarify.

    HP: Finally, they came back and said that the "ac" card was backwards
    compatible, so that it had two frequencies, but they don't operate at the
    same time, so it's not dual band.
    ME: I said thank you but I would like to ask you, Jeff, to clarify.

    Does that HP answer make sense?
    The "ac" card is backwards compatible, so, it has both frequencies, but
    it doesn't do both frequencies at the same time?

    What does that really mean?
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #31
  12. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    This should be correct, by now, where I appreciate Jeff's patience:
    802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
    802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
    802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
    802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz (or both?)
    802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

    Jeff: Notice the question mark in the "n" spec.
    Is "n" always just *either* frequency (i.e., one or the other).
    Or can "n" be either one or the other or *both* frequencies?
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #32
  13. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    Jeff.
    You are correct.
    But you were thinking differently than I was.

    You were thinking of bringing the (winxp desktop) 2007 license upward to
    the new (win10 laptop), and I discounted that out of hand.

    This is a hand-me-down desktop that someone else didn't want, so they
    gave it to this teacher, many years ago. It came with zero discs!

    But that wouldn't stop you or me.

    If it were you or me, we'd use Belarc to find the original office product
    key (or serial number, I forget which) and we'd then find the Office 2007
    download ISO hidden deeply on the Microsoft web site - and we'd download
    that Microsoft-provided ISO, perhaps burn it to optical disc for re-use,
    and we'd simply install Office 2007 on the new laptop from that ISO, and
    we'd bring over the old key that we unearthed using Belarc Advisor.

    In the end, you or I would have Office 2007 running on their one (winXP)
    desktop and their one new (win10) laptop, which is within the license
    constraints (I believe).

    But that ain't gonna happen with these people.
    They are not technical.
    They can't handle the complexity.

    Plus, it's time they moved into the new century, so, if they stick with
    Office 2007 (which they continue to call "Word 2007", not realizing there
    are multiple office apps), they will eventually have problems reading
    Office 2013 documents.

    So, it's time they got a new Microsoft Office suite.

    Since they will *keep* the WinXP desktop with Office 2007 on it, all
    we're looking at is a *single* license of Office 2013 (which they
    continue to call "Word 2013", which means they're not using Outlook).

    So, the price comparison is the following:
    1. Pay $100 per year for Office 365 for the rest of their lives, or,
    2. Pay $140 once, for Office 2013 H&S for the one laptop.

    To me, unless I missed a step, it's a no brainer.
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #33
  14. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    See my post of a few seconds ago where I reported the results of three
    sets of phone calls to HP today.

    I have asked Jeff to clarify what they told me, but here's the scoop.

    In the end, they said, that the "ac" card was backwards compatible, so,
    that meant that the ac card contained *both* frequencies, but the caveat
    was that the "ac" card was *not* dual band.

    When I asked them to clarify, they said it doesn't work on both
    frequencies at the same time.

    What does that really mean?
    Is having two bands dual band, or not?
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #34
  15. Ewald Böhm

    Ewald Böhm Guest

    After my conversation with HP today, I found out that their "ac" card has
    both 2.4GHz and 5GHz because it is backward compatible, but they said
    that backwards-compatible-ac-card is *not* a "dual band" card.

    Apparently they defined "dual band" in a specific way, that excludes the
    fact that it has "two" bands.
     
    Ewald Böhm, Sep 8, 2015
    #35
  16. Finding Office 2007 replacement CD's is trivial.
    Hint: BitTorrent.
    If it were purchased online from the Microsoft site, and you have the
    magic serial number, you can download a replacement ISO image.
    <http://www.microsoft.com/office/downloads/>
    Yep. I vaguely recall that Office 2007 works on 2 machines. Not
    sure.
    I'm technical and I hate complexity. Teachers have students, which
    just love to help with such things. Some of the teenage hackers are
    quite knowledgeable and have impressive experience in the dark arts of
    computing. Ask the students for help.
    Maybe, but that hasn't been my experience. I can read most anything
    produced by Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 with Office 2003 and the MS
    Compatibility Pack:
    <http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3>
    However, if there's a problem, I just ask the author to Save As: Word
    97 format.
    The way you can tell when it's time to upgrade is when you can't get
    the work done or that it's painful to use. I have no problems reading
    or writing with Office 2003 and various file format converters. I
    find Office 2007/2010 to be tedious, awkward, clumsy, and not much of
    an improvement over Office 2003. In other words, a step backwards. If
    your really think it's time for a change, I suggest they step into the
    (disk) space age, and take the great leap forward to Cloud Computing
    with a Chromebook and Google Office.
    Outlooks is dead anyway because Windoze 10 includes mail and calendar
    apps.
    3. Pay nothing and use Google Office, LibreOffice, or similar free
    alternatives.
    Well, you're right about not using your brain. What I find odd is
    that your primary reason to spend the money is the inability or
    unwillingness of a teacher to learn something new. I've seen this
    phenomenon with teachers in the past, where the monotonous repetition
    of cramming facts into students heads eventually leads to intellectual
    ossification. Even in computing, I guess perpetual reptition of the
    same mistakes is considered a good reason not to change one's habits.
    Personally, I find the logic disgusting, but I promised to improve my
    diplomacy and won't push the point any further.

    Here's what I suggest:
    1. Have the teacher beg, borrow, buy, or steal a Chromebook. I have
    several Acer products and find them quite good and cheap.
    <http://stores.ebay.com/Acer/Chromebooks-/_i.html?_fsub=7070078010>
    The various C720 models are what I use and like (also to run Linux).
    Figure about $120 to $175 refurbished.
    2. Have one or more of the teachers students setup the Chromebook so
    that it's ready to use. The learning curve is not very steep or long,
    but since that seems to be an issue here, faster is better.
    3. Have the teacher learn to user various Cloud Computing services,
    such as Google Cloud, MS Skydrive/OneDrive, etc. Also have the
    teacher learn to run apps inside the browser. If MS Word is required,
    then MS has the real thing available:
    <https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/word-online/fiombgjlkfpdpkbhfioofeeinbehmajg>
    4. If the teacher makes it this far, the rest should be obvious.
     
    Jeff Liebermann, Sep 9, 2015
    #36
  17. Please note that I did not suggest that you call support. I suggested
    you call pre-sales support (shopping team or something similar) and
    ask what model Intel wireless card is the "ac" device.
    Sorta, if I read between the lines.
    "ac" is always backwards compatible to "a". It has to be. Short
    lecture follows:

    If you force the wireless router (not the client radio in the laptop)
    to do only "ac", then the maximum from router to laptop will be rather
    short. Basically, at a fixed power level, you trade range for speed.
    "ac" is all about speed, so the range decreases when it's used. If
    the BER (bit error rate) increases above some pre-programmed level,
    the router in "ac" mode will slow down, eventually going to the
    slowest "ac" mode speed. To go slower than that, it would need to
    revert to some "n" mode. Once the router slows down to the slowest
    "n" mode, it will need to go to ordinary "a" mode. If it didn't go:
    ac -> n -> a
    the wireless connection would not work more than a few feet in "ac"
    mode. Therefore, to obtain tolerable performance at reasonable
    ranges, the wireless devices need to support all the modes down to
    "a".

    There is one exception. 802.11b is so disgustingly slow that the
    802.11n spec (and others) demand that 802.11b be disabled if 802.11n
    is active.

    End of lecture section (for now). Quiz to follow.

    Now, on to the "dual band" problem. The issue of "simultaneous dual
    band" is more of a router problem than a client radio problem. The
    usual idea is that you can have different devices use different bands
    as required. To do this requires simultaneous dual band in the
    router, but not in the laptop client radio. For example, I've setup
    Roku wireless media player boxes to use 5GHz, while the laptops and
    tablets are all on 2.4 Ghz. I've also done the reverse, when there's
    so much screaming media traffic on 2.4Ghz that the only band that's
    usable is 5GHz.
    <http://www.netgear.com/landing/dual-band.aspx>
    <http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/01/how-to-set-up-dual-band-wifi-and-juice-your-downloads/>
    Simultaneous dual band is (in my opinion) a requirement for wireless
    routers and access points. However, for laptops, tablets, and
    wireless client radios, it's only useful for marketing types that want
    to advertise higher speeds. There are protocols for bonding both the
    2.4 and 5GHz channels between a laptop and a router in order to get
    higher download speeds. You're not going to see that on a $350 laptop
    and don't need it anyway. Therefore, the HP phone person was right
    that it's one band at a time, not both simultaneously.

    Incidentally, the Bluetooth device shares the same radio as the 2.4GHz
    wi-fi section and are setup to alternate their operation so as to not
    mutually interfere with each other.
    It means you've educated the HP phone support person. Somehow, I
    don't think that was your intent.
     
    Jeff Liebermann, Sep 9, 2015
    #37
  18. I just hate it when you ask consistently good questions. I feel
    obligated to answer when I would rather roll over and die from
    spending most of the Labor Day holiday running wires under a house.
    I'm getting too old for this kind of work.

    Operating on both frequencies at the same time is called "simultaneous
    dual band". This is commonly found in wireless routers and wireless
    access points, but not in wireless client radios, like the one in your
    prospective HP laptop. The wireless router needs simultaneous dual
    band because it might have two different users, connected at the same
    time, each on a different band. Were the radio NOT simultaneous dual
    band, the traffic bandwidth would be roughly cut in half because the
    wireless router radio would need to switch back and forth between the
    two users. However, with simultaneous dual band, it could service
    both users at the same time without any loss of bandwidth.
     
    Jeff Liebermann, Sep 9, 2015
    #38
  19. Ewald Böhm

    Sam E Guest

    For completeness, there is the original 802.11 (with no suffix) that is
    also on 2.4GHz. IIRC, maximum speed for that is 2Mbps.

    [snip]


    --
    107 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
    AM for 1 day).

    "Nobody has ever taken notable pains to locate the legendary heaven; but
    probably that is because nobody ever thought seriously of going to a
    heaven." [E. Haldeman-Julius, "The Meaning Of Atheism"]
     
    Sam E, Sep 9, 2015
    #39
  20. Yep, however those were incorporated into the 802.11b specification.
    The two slowest speeds of 1 and 2 Mbit/sec became part of 802.11b when
    5.5 and 11 Mbits/sec were added.
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11#802.11-1997_.28802.11_legacy.29>
    Besides DSSS (direct sequence spread spectrum) there were also a few
    FHSS (frequency hopping spread spectrum) promoted by Raytheon,
    Breezecom (Alviron), and TI. However, you won't see these in modern
    equipment, unless you include BlueGoof, which is FHSS.
     
    Jeff Liebermann, Sep 9, 2015
    #40
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