Does this PDF show where the IMEI number is stored in the SIM card?

Discussion in 'Wireless Internet' started by Johannes, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Johannes

    miso Guest

    There is no contract involved with your MAC.

    There is a contact involved with your phone, and spoofing the IMEI could
    be considered "theft of services" if it allows you to bypass a fee or
    charge. This is commonly how cable theft is treated legally. So you can change
    the IMEI and not use the phone, hence no theft has occurred. However if
    you put that phone on a network where they service provider expects a
    fee for that particular type of device and you avoid said fee, you have
    now committed theft of services. Now what AT$T wants to do at that
    point is another story.

    The service providers, well at least TV providers, like to threaten the
    sucker with legal action then make the sucker pay a fee to settle the
    account and not get the law involved. This was common with MDS in the
    80s, and in the day when satellite could easily be hacked. The law
    doesn't care HOW you hacked the system, they just care that you DID hack
    the system. Thus no need to explicitly designate some procedure to be
    illegal.
     
    miso, Sep 26, 2012
    #21
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  2. Johannes

    miso Guest

    I have the ability to read every parameter on a simcard. Which parameter
    restricts the phone to 2G?
     
    miso, Sep 26, 2012
    #22
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  3. No 3G sata (or calls). Older SIM's do not have the abilityt to configure on
    3G.

    OTOH they can still get data using GPRS or EDGE.
    Well it won't be able to connect via 3G.
     
    R. Mark Clayton, Sep 26, 2012
    #23
  4. Rubbish it is part of registration when you switch the phone on!

    However IMEI's are in blocks for manufacturers so an SP can usually work out
    what sort of phone you have.
     
    R. Mark Clayton, Sep 26, 2012
    #24
  5. Johannes

    J.G. Guest

    Good question!
     
    J.G., Sep 26, 2012
    #25
  6. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    This, of course, is the (somewhat comical) crux of the matter.

    I can see the court case now ...

    "Your honor, the defendant explicitly told us, AT&T, that he did not
    want a data plan for his minor children; however we enforce that you
    must pay for a data plan, even if defendant doesn't want it, and even
    if the defendent has a data lock so that his minor children can't use
    it - and - while defendent can simply put his AT&T SIM card into a
    phone not on our penalty list - the defendent expressly bought a phone
    whose model 'was' listed on our data-penalty list - and - in fact - it
    was a phone we, AT&T, don't even sell - yet - this defendent used said
    phone, but didn't purchase the data plan he has no intention of using,
    and, which he cannot use due to the data lock he asked us to place on
    the phone. He avoided charges for that which he did not want and couldn't
    possibly use by merely spoofing his IMEI..."

    The prosecution continued:

    "Therefore, your honor ... we ask for the death penalty to be imposed."
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #26
  7. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    Even on my smartphones, I only use voice & text.
    Would I need 3G in that case?

    I'm thinking of buying a Samsung Galaxy Android phone;
    would I need 3G in that case?
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #27
  8. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    That has been my experience with T-Mobile also.
    The good news, for me, is that I don't even know what tethering is.
    So, I won't even miss it.
    I don't even use data, even on my smartphones (they're WiFi).
    That's why I use T-Mobile - but unfortunately, AT&T coverage is better.
    Actually, I thought it was clear - but it won't hurt to make it clear
    again. They ALWAYS know your IMEI! You don't have to tell them anything.

    There is no way they don't know your IMEI.

    I have emperical evidence of this by my calls from the VP at AT&T in
    response to my FCC complaint - but the point is that they ALWAYS know
    your IMEI so it 'should' be immaterial whether or not you "verbally"
    and voluntarily provided it to them over a phone call.
    I have no idea. But I respect your long-standing status on a.h.r
    so empirically, I'm sure what you said happened. All I'll say is
    that they KNOW your IMEI, so, if they 'wanted' to use it, they could.

    Note: While they 'know' your IMEI, they don't know if you own the
    phone that you're using. So maybe they want your IMEI for 'permission'
    to update the software on that phone? For example, you can borrow
    your brother's phone, and it would work fine - and they'd know that
    IMEI - but they might not have permission to install software updates
    onto that phone. Dunno. But that's a different issue.
    My experience exactly. I have had multiple phones, from hand-me-downs
    to Target $35 pay-as-you-go phones (which work just fine in the 'normal'
    contract network).
    This is the crux of this thread.

    I also get data via WiFi, so, with a T-Mobile SIM card, I have no problem.
    Yet, with an AT&T SIM card, I'd have to spoof the IMEI to a phone not on
    the AT&T-data-penalty list in order to have the same use model.

    Unfortunately, nobody here has provided a reference for how to do that!
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #28
  9. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    I can't imagine how roaming will affect only voice & text (remember, the
    goal here is to use WiFi for data ... and to never use cellular for data).
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #29
  10. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    I had to look up what an iPod touch was ... it seems to be data without
    the voice. But what I need is voice without the (cellular) data.

    Therefore, I don't understand.

    What I want is super simple:
    a) Voice + text
    b) No data fees
    c) WiFi data

    Will the iPhone touch really give me that?
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #30
  11. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    It has been my eperience that T-Mobile is very friendly toward iPhones,
    so I don't disagree with you on this.

    My kid's iPhone works fine on T-Mobile, and the only data is WiFi which
    is exactly how I want it to be.

    I was supremely scared when the AT&T/T-Mobile merger was announced,
    because that would be the death of consumer choice.
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #31
  12. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    This is great information - and you are well respected so I commend you
    for the informative cite.

    Only two points to clarify:
    a) It's my understanding the IMEI 'can' be changed - I just don't know
    how.
    b) It's not illegal to change an IMEI in the USA.

    BTW, emperically, if the UK has a weird law against changing the IMEI,
    then that in and of itself implies (but does not prove) that the IMEI
    'can' be changed.
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #32
  13. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    That's essentially what AT&T told me in response to my FCC complaint.

    I had complained they were charging me for services I didn't want.
    Comically, AT&T repeatedly parroted the party line that it was for
    a 'consistent bill', yet, in the same breath, they agree that they
    allow a data block - which gives you that consistent bill WITHOUT
    the data plan (which proves their insincerity).

    Speaking of contracts, I 'almost' wish I had the guts to test their
    mettle in the courts. It would be easy, albeit time consuming.

    Here's what (I think) would happen (legal pundits asked for advice):
    a) I sign up for basic AT&T cellular service and ask for a data block
    b) I slip the new AT&T SIM card into my old unlocked smartphone.
    .... < the next step is what AT&T 'says' they will do > ...
    c) 48 hours later, AT&T automatically adds the most expensive data plan
    d) I call up to tell them to remove it (AT&T says they'll do that)
    .... < Here is where we separate talk from action > ...
    e) I continue to use my AT&T SIM card in a smart phone
    f) 48 hours later, AT&T again automatically adds the most expensive data
    plan
    g) I call up to tell them to remove it ...(let's assume they remove it)
    < repeat as many times as needed with AT&T to make the point >

    Now, at some point, we get to legal action.

    What can AT&T actually do?

    I assume they can:
    1. Continue to charge me (and take me to court for the money)
    2. Cancel my contract (and make me pay a cancellation fee)
    3. Give up (and allow me to not have a data plan like T-Mobile does
    willingly)

    If all this happens within the 30-day California mandated grace period, I
    take no monetary risks (as I don't intend to even USE the phone). But,
    likely
    it will span over 30 days.

    I wonder what would happen if AT&T actually tried to take me to court?
    I doubt they would as I can't imagine being convicted for:
    I. Not using data
    II. Having a data block
    III. Yet, being forced to pay for data

    Maybe I should open a separate thread on this topic in the legal forums.
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #33
  14. Johannes

    Johannes Guest

    IMEI's are not unique - but they're so close to being unique that
    this is effectively the case.

    But here's the capriciousness of it all.

    Does AT&T supply that list of models subject to the IMEI penalty?
    Nope. At least you can't get it.

    So, in effect, from your perpective, they 'arbitrarily' determine whether
    or not the phone you are using is what they consider a 'smartphone'.

    The capriciousness (and callousness) of it all is a key point.
    If I could make a case out of this, I would, but I'd need legal help.
     
    Johannes, Sep 26, 2012
    #34
  15. Depends on the network. In the UK 3 only operate native on 3G. with fall
    back (aka roaming) to other networks when out of coverage. Obviously they
    will only give you a 3G SIM. OTOH if you roam to a network (in another
    country) that only has 3G then you won't be able to call or text.
    Any phone that had multi-band support will operate on GSM, but I would
    recommend for coverage purposes that you get a SIM that works on all bands.
    In the UK

    GSM900 O2 & Voda
    GSM1800 O2, Voda and EE
    3G2100 all of them

    EE claim they will be first to 4G by means of bandwidth sacrifice.

    If you are in the USA then there is CDMA as well, but the main problem is
    the service providers who make our predatory SP's look like a bunch of
    angels.
     
    R. Mark Clayton, Sep 26, 2012
    #35
  16. Just remember that AT&T can afford more lawyers than you can!
    Also known as "the Deep Pocket Doctrine" or "the party with the most
    money wins!"
     
    Richard B. Gilbert, Sep 26, 2012
    #36
  17. Johannes

    J.G. Guest

    I know. I know. I would love to make a case, because I feel it's illegal,
    and it's deceptive.

    I called AT&T today and asked about the plan and they told me it's only
    for 'super smart phones'. I asked for a list of those 'super smart'
    phones, and they told me I could give them an IMEI and they could tell me
    if it was on the list but that they can't give me a list because a new
    'super smart' phone might come on the market tomorrow.

    Their policy is downright capricious!

    Here's how I would make the case:
    0. I'm buy on the open market a new or used "super smart" phone.
    1. I'd buy an AT&T SIM under contract & get a data block on the plan.
    2. I'd place that AT&T SIM into that new unused "super smart" phone.
    3. Each time AT&T adds data charges, I'd call to have them removed.
    4. At some point, AT&T will probably "do something legal".
    5. And, that's when I'd cancel the plan & the court process occurs.

    I wonder how much overall this would cost - and, since this is clearly
    for the benefit of the consumer - if there is an agency (other than the
    FCC) which might care enough that has deeper pockets than I have?

    Any idea on an agency that would back me up legally on a purposeful court
    case?
     
    J.G., Sep 26, 2012
    #37
  18. Johannes

    Salmon Egg Guest

    I do not know where you live, but in California the words "Public
    Utility Commission" have done wonders. The PUC really works for
    citizens. They do not punish telephone companies, but the companies
    refund money rather than fight. PUC figures that the refund rights the
    wrong.

    I do not have a smart phone. At this time in my life I want a big loud
    bright phone that I can understand how to use. Right now, I am using a
    TracFone. The price is right. The coverage is right. If I understand
    what the foreign "help personnel" are saying, no such phone is available
    from TracFone.

    --

    Sam

    Conservatives are against Darwinism but for natural selection.
    Liberals are for Darwinism but totally against any selection.
     
    Salmon Egg, Sep 26, 2012
    #38
  19. Johannes

    miso Guest

    Argh, bad answer. There are so many parameters in a simcard with quite
    cryptic names.
     
    miso, Sep 27, 2012
    #39
  20. Johannes

    miso Guest

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but these wireless companies are
    eventually going to shut down 2G service. AT$T already announced this.
    There will be no more 2G by 2017, but I suspect that is when the pull
    the last plug. It could start sooner. T-Mob has similar plans. They need
    to take that spectrum and use it for faster services.

    Look on the bright side. EDGE has been hacked. It is not secure. By the
    time 3G is hacked, we will all be on LTE.

    I have no idea what will happen to EDGE in rural areas.

    The Samsung Galaxy S 3 is great for a phone that you can buy today.
    [There is always something better in the future of course.] It even
    takes those 64 Gbyte SD cards. It is at least a generation or two ahead
    of the fruity phone.

    It is free for me until the end of the month, but I'm a Blackberry
    fanboi. I'm waiting for BB10. You can't be too secure.
     
    miso, Sep 27, 2012
    #40
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