ADSL Channel bonding

Discussion in 'Broadband' started by Jim, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. Jim

    Jim Guest

    Anyone any views or experience with this ?

    Jim.
     
    Jim, Dec 18, 2008
    #1
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  2. Jim

    David Guest

    Do you mean the system Be have come up with using a second telephone line to
    get a 40 meg speed?
     
    David, Dec 18, 2008
    #2
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  3. Jim

    alexd Guest

    My view is that if I were to shell out for two line rentals + two ISP
    rentals on said lines, I'd forego the benefits of ADSL channel bonding, and
    instead use two ISPs for extra resilience.

    Bonding at the xDSL layer is better than at the IP layer; for example, it's
    better at inbound load balancing.

    In an ideal world, everyone would have their own subnet, and if you wanted
    to load balance with extra connections, you'd announce your range down all
    your lines, tweak the metrics and away you go. Maybe that's an
    over-simplified view of it.
     
    alexd, Dec 18, 2008
    #3
  4. Jim

    Chris Hills Guest

    Some ADSL ISPs already provide a native IPv6 service (with a usual
    allocation of a /64 - single subnet - or a /48 - 2^16 subnets). Now that
    VM is rolling out DOCSIS 3 hopefully they will follow soon. Sadly, I
    cannot see many ISP's offering a peering service to consumers. It would
    be a huge amount of work for which the ISP would gain little. I would be
    happy to be proved wrong!
     
    Chris Hills, Dec 19, 2008
    #4
  5. Coo. To work seamlessly to two ISP's requires you to run BGP and
    although ISP's allow it they charge, and you have to be shown to be
    competent. And sign a lot of paper. And run a router capable of holding
    the world internet routing tables..

    Someone who is announcing BGP routes can in theory bring the whole
    internet to its knees, and it has been done.

    So normally the upstream parties would filter these out, but that adds
    overhead to the boundary routers..

    No, its far more likely you will run a machine on two IP addresses on
    two cards with each card having its own default route to its own ISP..
    one via each ISP and use random DNS to see which way the packets come.

    Even that is pretty complex if all you want is more bandwidth, which is
    why channel bonding works best for most people.
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Dec 19, 2008
    #5
  6. Jim

    David Guest

    I asked earlier is it the 2 telephone line system to be introduced by Be
    that we are talking about.
    I'm with Be now with their upto 24 meg. and they are excellent.
    This is from Think Broadband site.

    Be fight back with 45Mbps bonded broadband
    Tuesday 16 December 2008 15:46:19 by John Hunt
    Be Broadband, the ISP owned by O2's parent company, Telefonica, have
    announced today the successful completion of their bonded broadband trial
    which ran on the London Paddington exchange. The trial was mainly aimed at
    understanding the technical capabilities involved using ADSL2+ over two
    telephone lines which were bonded together to make one line. Customers
    reported real-world speeds of between 30Mbps and 45Mbps- just 5Mbps shy of
    Virgin's headline 50meg speed. Be will be carrying out further trials
    through 2009.

    A single twisted pair copper phone line is limited in how fast it can
    transfer data, and connecting multiple lines together is one solution to try
    and increase the bandwidth without deploying equipment closer to the
    exchange such as in the BT FTTC trials. One drawback of bonding is that you
    will need to pay for two telephone lines, one for each DSL line, which will
    increase the cost. DSL does also vary speed depending on the distance from
    the exchange (unlike the Virgin cable services) and so the highest speeds
    will only be available to those who live the closest.

    "We want to push the limits of high-speed broadband. We already offer the
    fastest possible broadband on an ADSL line, but we want to take it a step
    further. If you want broadband around the 50Mb mark but don't want to go the
    cable route, Be wants to offer you a real alternative."

    Felix Geyr, (Managing Director) Be Broadband
    One point worth making is that although Be services are not limited to the
    area of the Virgin cable network, many of the exchanges where Be provide
    service will overlap with Virgin, and this will also leave many areas of the
    UK unable to get either Virgin's 50meg of the Be bonded broadband.
    Competition will breed new services though and if other providers are able
    to offer similar services to Virgin's 50meg soon, maybe Virgin will be
    forced to up the speed sooner than they thought if they want to keep the
    crown of fastest broadband.



    Regards,
    David

    Please reply to News Group
     
    David, Dec 19, 2008
    #6
  7. Jim

    Rodney Pont Guest

    I don't know what Jim was specifically asking about but.

    AAISP have been offering channel bonding for some time now on ADSL.
    They also offer it with ADSL2+ if you are on an exchange that has been
    upgraded to 21CN and WBC by BT. They do not limit you to just two
    lines, you can have whatever you are willing to pay for:

    http://aaisp.net.uk/kb-broadband-bonding.html

    They have also been offering ipv6 for some time in spite of BT not
    officially supporting it.
     
    Rodney Pont, Dec 19, 2008
    #7
  8. Jim

    AnthonyL Guest

    A few years back now. Client in magazine publishing with lots of
    images to be transferred quickly and reliably. Got Andrews & Arnold
    to set it all up and worked a treat with pretty close to doubling of
    capacity iirc.
     
    AnthonyL, Dec 19, 2008
    #8
  9. Jim

    AnthonyL Guest

    I would be tempted to have a separate connection for VOIP
    Can you bond across different ISPs? You do have some redundancy
    against a line fault.
     
    AnthonyL, Dec 20, 2008
    #9
  10. There are a few ISPs that will do bonding - I think only on the dataStream
    products though - until now, and as Be have their own kit in the exchange,
    I guess they can do anything with it...
    Same here..

    Unless it's additional bandwidth you want...
    You can't "bond", but you can load-share. so if you had 2 x 8Mb lines,
    one person could still only get 8Mb, but a 2nd person could also get
    8Mb at the same time. With true bonding, one person could get 16Mb.

    It's not without it's problems though, but with the right kit it can
    be made to work very well. You need to make sure that the data stays
    going over one line for a "session" (whatever that might be) and try to
    avoid asymetric routing (data coming in one line and the replies going
    out the other) but there are routers that will do all this for you.
    (as well as linux solutions)

    Gordon
     
    Gordon Henderson, Dec 20, 2008
    #10
  11. i dont see why a bonded connection is unusable for voip.
    Not really.
    he weakest link is the ceapest link: you to the exchange. No redunancy
    there really. Ok its extra wires, but the usual thing is the digger
    through the whole conduit ;-)

    ISPS have their own redundancies. i've seen some bloody weird routings
    in my time..USA via IIRC Finland was one..
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Dec 20, 2008
    #11
  12. Jim

    alexd Guest

    There are issues to be taken care of, but they're not insurmountable. You
    just need to make sure your phones [or rather, your voice subnet] only ever
    get routed down one line; having your SIP traffic and your RTP stream
    traversing different lines could cause all sorts of hilarity.
     
    alexd, Dec 20, 2008
    #12
  13. But the whole point of bonding is that it IS one line.

    Hell you cant even rely on the rest of the internet having fixed
    routing..if an ISP has two pipes going to the same place chances are
    they will load share over them with equal weight routes.
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Dec 21, 2008
    #13
  14. Jim

    alexd Guest

    Sorry, I trimmed the bit of the post where we were talking about load
    balancing across 2 ISPs from behind NAT. Of course proper bonding is
    completely invisible to the upper layers so should work with any
    application.
     
    alexd, Dec 21, 2008
    #14
  15. OK, but I still don't see that as an issue for VOIP.

    Diverse routing and asymmetric routing are all part of the Internet at
    large, anyway.
     
    The Natural Philosopher, Dec 21, 2008
    #15
  16. Jim

    alexd Guest

    You might not, but I can tell you that SIP and certain other VoIP endpoints
    get very confused when their traffic isn't consistently routed down one
    line or the other.
    But the internet at large [ie once your traffic has left your router]
    doesn't use NAPT [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_address_translation].
     
    alexd, Dec 21, 2008
    #16
  17. Jim

    jrwalliker Guest

    No good for VOIP though

    I have a pair of AAISP bonded lines with a Firebrick 105 at my end.
    The main reason for bonding is to get better voip performance, as the
    uplink bandwidth is almost doubled. I can get data transfer rates of
    about 1.3Mbit/s uplink and 10Mbit/s downlink, although it is hard to
    find other sites which can support these speeds. Each line by itself
    syncs at 800kbit/s uplink and 6 to 6.5Mbit/s downlink.

    Redundancy does help, as sometimes BT kill one line without affecting
    the other.

    Sending alternate packets down each line does not seem to cause
    problems, perhaps because the lines have very similar characteristics.
     
    jrwalliker, Dec 21, 2008
    #17
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