XP losing connection

My WinXP PC has a problem and my Win98 PC on the same router does
not

My broadband connection on the XP PC is fine until;-
When I leave the XP PC for a while and it goes to standby, then when I
move the mouse to wake it up my broadband will not connect. Every thing
looks OK, the Zone Alarm icon shows a connection, the lights on the
ZyXEL router flash but browsers or mail/news programmes will not
connect.
The only way I've found to reconnect is a restart.
(It was just the same before XP SP2)

I've tried start/cmd/ipconfig release and renew and disabling and
enabling the network but still no go.
If I put the modems ip address into the browser I can get to the ZyXEL
modem router setup/test programme and get it to ping on the Internet OK
but cannot browse. The modem test status's all give 'pass' (anyway the
modem is OK because the W98 PC connects - see paragraph below)
The modem is OK and the browser/PC are OK but it is as if the XP
'network' to the modem goes to sleep and does not wake up. I've tried
switching the modem to PC cables and modem 'ports', and on my ASUS A7N8X
board I've tried on both LAN ports.

On the same router I've also got a Win98SE machine with the same
versions of ZA and anti virus and spyware programmes. That machine can
go to standby or sleep but when it wakes up the broadband will connect
without problem. It will connect OK when the XP machine has 'locked
itself out'.

The PC's are not 'networked' and the behaviour is the same with either
only one PC or with both PC's switched on.
Previously when I had a non-router Binatone USB modem on the XP machine
_it_did_the_same_ and I thought that the problem would go away with a
router modem.

I am a novice on broadband and am not familiar with networking so any
help will be greatly appreciated.

Richard.
--
A.R.Mills

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
A.R.Mills <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> My WinXP PC has a problem and my Win98 PC on the same router does
> not
>
> My broadband connection on the XP PC is fine until;-
> When I leave the XP PC for a while and it goes to standby, then when I
> move the mouse to wake it up my broadband will not connect. Every
> thing looks OK, the Zone Alarm icon shows a connection, the lights on
> the ZyXEL router flash but browsers or mail/news programmes will not
> connect.

What errors are reported by your browser and email client?

> The only way I've found to reconnect is a restart.
> (It was just the same before XP SP2)
>
> I've tried start/cmd/ipconfig release and renew and disabling and
> enabling the network but still no go.

Have you looked at the IP setup - both when it's working and when it isn't?
If so, what does it show?

If not, when it's working, go to the Command Prompt and type "ipconfig
/all"<Enter> (without the quotes) - and copy the result to Notepad and/or
print it

Then, when it fails to connect, do the same again and compare results.

> If I put the modems ip address into the browser I can get to the ZyXEL
> modem router setup/test programme and get it to ping on the Internet
> OK but cannot browse. The modem test status's all give 'pass' (anyway
> the modem is OK because the W98 PC connects - see paragraph below)
> The modem is OK and the browser/PC are OK but it is as if the XP
> 'network' to the modem goes to sleep and does not wake up. I've tried
> switching the modem to PC cables and modem 'ports', and on my ASUS
> A7N8X board I've tried on both LAN ports.
>
> On the same router I've also got a Win98SE machine with the same
> versions of ZA and anti virus and spyware programmes. That machine can
> go to standby or sleep but when it wakes up the broadband will connect
> without problem. It will connect OK when the XP machine has 'locked
> itself out'.
>
> The PC's are not 'networked' and the behaviour is the same with either
> only one PC or with both PC's switched on.
> Previously when I had a non-router Binatone USB modem on the XP
> machine _it_did_the_same_ and I thought that the problem would go
> away with a router modem.

I'm slightly confused as to your exact setup. Can you list your actual kit,
and what is actually connected to what. When you say the PCs are not
networked, do you simply mean that File & Printer Sharing is not enabled
even though both PCs are physically connected to the same modem/router/hub?

You are presumably using your modem/router as a DHCP server to dish out IP
addresses to both PCs? I'm wondering whether something is going wrong with
this when the XP machine goes to sleep, and is not recovering when it wakes
up. It would be worth trying fixed IP addresses, and turning off the DHCP
functionality.
--
Cheers,
Tim
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:09:05 -0000, "Tiscali Tim" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>You are presumably using your modem/router as a DHCP server to dish out IP
>addresses to both PCs? I'm wondering whether something is going wrong with
>this when the XP machine goes to sleep, and is not recovering when it wakes
>up. It would be worth trying fixed IP addresses, and turning off the DHCP
>functionality.

Such thoughts ran through my mind, but the OP says he can get to his router
using a browser by entering the browser's IP address. So IP is not
intrinsically broken and its not a ZA issue as it has permitted a new
connect (although I guess it could be blocking outside addresses for some
bizarre reason).

The output from "ipconfig" and "route print" would be useful. I wonder if
the default gateway has been somehow lost or perhaps DNS is not working. As
you suggest, using fixed IP addresses can make life a lot easier. That and
the DNS settings are all on the General tab of the Properties page for the
Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) item within Local Area Connection Properties
(Control Panel then Local Area Connection). This may be different if the OP
has used the connection wizard and gone down a different route to the one I
would recommend - the wording about how "this computer" is connected is
confusing to say the least. With a router present, no computer is directly
connected or connects via any other computer. You tell it you are on a
local network instead and supply the gateway information separately.

--
Psychic Convention cancelled due to unforeseen problems.

Mail john rather than nospam...

Thank you Jim and John for your attention - just some more info;

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, John Laird
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:09:05 -0000, "Tiscali Tim" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>You are presumably using your modem/router as a DHCP server to dish out IP
>>addresses to both PCs? I'm wondering whether something is going wrong with
>>this when the XP machine goes to sleep, and is not recovering when it wakes
>>up. It would be worth trying fixed IP addresses, and turning off the DHCP
>>functionality.
>
The ZyXEL setup wizard is set to find the IP address but I assumed that
this was the IP address of my provider and not the PC?
The DHCP is 'ON', what is the 'DHCP'?

>Such thoughts ran through my mind, but the OP says he can get to his router
>using a browser by entering the browser's IP address. So IP is not
>intrinsically broken and its not a ZA issue as it has permitted a new
>connect (although I guess it could be blocking outside addresses for some
>bizarre reason).
ZA is at the same build standard and settings on both machines. - and
the XP problem has persisted from when I first went onto broadband 7
months ago using a USB non router ADSL modem. It was when I got the
router modem and plugged in the Win98 PC that I found it was specific to
the XP machine

I have not tried any suggestions yet because I've got into the habit of
switching off the PC when I leave it now because it is quicker than
waiting for the shutdown and re-start. I'll take the outputs suggested
and then again when it stops connecting.
My recollection (without actual page copy) is that all that I've checked
reads exactly the same whether or not it will connect.


>The output from "ipconfig" and "route print" would be useful. I wonder if
>the default gateway has been somehow lost or perhaps DNS is not working. As
>you suggest, using fixed IP addresses can make life a lot easier. That and
>the DNS settings are all on the General tab of the Properties page for the
>Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) item within Local Area Connection Properties
>(Control Panel then Local Area Connection). This may be different if the OP
>has used the connection wizard and gone down a different route to the one I
>would recommend - the wording about how "this computer" is connected is
>confusing to say the least. With a router present, no computer is directly
>connected or connects via any other computer. You tell it you are on a
>local network instead and supply the gateway information separately.
>
The setup is;
The XP PC uses an ASUS A7N8X-Dl board with 2 built in LAN's (a '3COM
LAN' and a 'nVidia LAN') - I've tried both.
(As I said, it was the same on a USB port with a 'Binatone ADSL500 USB
modem' and at that time I suspected it was a USB 'wake up' problem)

The Win98 PC is Gigabyte GA5AX mainboard with a PCI LAN card.

The router modem is a ZyXEL Prestige 650H-E. Using the XP PC I set up
the computers IP address as per the instructions and then put in my
Internet providers information. It worked OK first time no problem
(apart from the sleepy thing)

I then connected the router to the Win98 PC and switched everything on
again and it all worked. While I was wondering if I had to set up the
Win98/router; it found the configured router and immediately started to
download the latest AV update and just worked OK. All I had done was
'plug in and switch on' the Win98 PC
I have not tried (or even know how:-() to get the 2 PC's to talk to each
other through the router.

After sending this I'll get the output from "ipconfig" and "route print"
before and after and look for differences. (I can't attach a binary copy
in this NG - is there an easy way to get the information from the 'DOS
type' window into a text editor?.)


Richard.
--
A.R.Mills

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
A.R.Mills <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Thank you Tim and John for your attention - just some more info;
>
>>
> The ZyXEL setup wizard is set to find the IP address but I assumed
> that this was the IP address of my provider and not the PC?
> The DHCP is 'ON', what is the 'DHCP'?
>

The router will have two different IP addresses - one for its ADSL interface
to the internet (dynamically allocated by your ISP when the router connects)
and one for its ethernet interface - which is part of your network. The
network card in each of your PCs needs an IP address in the same range as
the router's ethernet IP address. If the router is acting as a DHCP (Dynamic
Host Configuration Protocol) server, it will allocate the IP addresses to
the PCs. For this to happen, the TCP/IP setup for each PC has to say "Obtain
an IP address automatically". The alternative is for you to select "Use the
following IP address" and to specify it yourself.

>
> After sending this I'll get the output from "ipconfig" and "route
> print" before and after and look for differences. (I can't attach a
> binary copy in this NG - is there an easy way to get the information
> from the 'DOS type' window into a text editor?.)
>
Right click in the DOS window and click on Select all. Then right click
again and select Mark. This copies it to the clipboard - from which you can
paste it into a Notepad window - or even into a newsgroup posting.
--
Cheers,
Tim
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tiscali Tim
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
>A.R.Mills <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Tim and John for your attention - just some more info;
>>
>>>
>> The ZyXEL setup wizard is set to find the IP address but I assumed
>> that this was the IP address of my provider and not the PC?
>> The DHCP is 'ON', what is the 'DHCP'?
>>
>
>The router will have two different IP addresses - one for its ADSL interface
>to the internet (dynamically allocated by your ISP when the router connects)
>and one for its ethernet interface - which is part of your network. The
>network card in each of your PCs needs an IP address in the same range as
>the router's ethernet IP address. If the router is acting as a DHCP (Dynamic
>Host Configuration Protocol) server, it will allocate the IP addresses to
>the PCs. For this to happen, the TCP/IP setup for each PC has to say "Obtain
>an IP address automatically". The alternative is for you to select "Use the
>following IP address" and to specify it yourself.
>
I'll read that in detail and understand (I hope) any implications.

>Right click in the DOS window and click on Select all. Then right click
>again and select Mark. This copies it to the clipboard - from which you can
>paste it into a Notepad window - or even into a newsgroup posting.

It comes out a bit long but in the "cmd" DOS-type information I can see
no difference between working and non working.
I've listed non-working first, Browser/Email client/CMD info;
then the same when working.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
First of all a NON-CONNECTED situation;

A typical browser error message is;
"www.eudora.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
My mail client message is;
Turnpike 'Connect' Integrated Version 5.01 - Copyright 1995-2000
Turnpike Ltd

Local domain = 'f9.co.uk'
This machine = 'jaguz.f9.co.uk'

Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:56:15 Started, using connection which already
exists
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:56:15 Collecting mail from POP3 server
mail.force9.net
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:56:15 Collecting mail from POP3 server
pop.icom43.net
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:56:15 Collecting Usenet News from
News.Individual.NET
[translating host name to IP address]
Connection failed - Host not found
-- Winsock ERROR : DNS Authoritative: Host not found
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:56:48 Failed to connect to news machine
News.Individual.NET : [translating host name to IP address]
Connection failed - Host not found
-- Winsock ERROR : Valid name, no data record for type
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>ipconfig

Windows IP Configuration


Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 4:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.33
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : arm-pc1
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 4:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : NVIDIA nForce MCP Networking
Adapter

Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0C-6E-33-C6-EA
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.33
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 16 November 2004 15:32:38
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 19 November 2004 15:32:38

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>route print
================================================== ==============
Interface List
0x1 ........................... MS TCP Loopback interface
0x2 ...00 0c 6e 33 c6 ea ...... NVIDIA nForce MCP Networking Adapter -
Packet Sc
heduler Miniport
================================================== ===============
================================================== ===============
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface
Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.1.1 192.168.1.33
20
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1
1
192.168.1.0 255.255.255.0 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
20
192.168.1.33 255.255.255.255 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1
20
192.168.1.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
20
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
20
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
1
Default Gateway: 192.168.1.1
================================================== ===============
Persistent Routes:
None

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
In a CONNECTED OK situation;

The browser (Firefox or IE) connect to the selected url/web site with no
problem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++=
My mail client message is;
Turnpike 'Connect' Integrated Version 5.01 - Copyright 1995-2000
Turnpike Ltd

Local domain = 'f9.co.uk'
This machine = 'jaguz.f9.co.uk'

Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:10 Started, using connection which already
exists
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:10 Collecting mail from POP3 server
mail.force9.net
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:10 Collecting mail from POP3 server
pop.icom43.net
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:10 Collecting Usenet News from
News.Individual.NET
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:11 Finished collecting mail from POP3 server
mail.force9.net, 0 messages accepted, 0 rejected
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:11 0 messages deleted from POP3 server, 0
messages remain
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:11 Collecting mail from POP3 server
mail.onetel.net.uk
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:11 Finished collecting mail from POP3 server
pop.icom43.net, 0 messages accepted, 0 rejected
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:11 0 messages deleted from POP3 server, 0
messages remain
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:11 Finished collecting mail from POP3 server
mail.onetel.net.uk, 0 messages accepted, 0 rejected
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:11 0 messages deleted from POP3 server, 0
messages remain
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:16 News connection to News.Individual.NET closed
- filing continues
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:16 News from News.Individual.NET completed, 168
articles fetched, 0 posted
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:52:25 TIME: PC clock is correct!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>ipconfig

Windows IP Configuration


Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 4:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.33
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : arm-pc1
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 4:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : NVIDIA nForce MCP Networking
Adapter

Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0C-6E-33-C6-EA
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.33
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 16 November 2004 20:51:35
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 19 November 2004 20:51:35

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>route print
================================================== ================
Interface List
0x1 ........................... MS TCP Loopback interface
0x2 ...00 0c 6e 33 c6 ea ...... NVIDIA nForce MCP Networking Adapter -
Packet Scheduler Miniport
================================================== ===============
================================================== ===============
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface
Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.1.1 192.168.1.33
20
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1
1
192.168.1.0 255.255.255.0 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
20
192.168.1.33 255.255.255.255 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1
20
192.168.1.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
20
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
20
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.1.33 192.168.1.33
1
Default Gateway: 192.168.1.1
================================================== ================
Persistent Routes:
None

C:\Documents and Settings\arm>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
I'd like to think that in that information is the answer to what I got
wrong.

--
A.R.Mills

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
A.R.Mills <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> It comes out a bit long but in the "cmd" DOS-type information I can
> see no difference between working and non working.
> I've listed non-working first, Browser/Email client/CMD info;
> then the same when working.
<SNIP listings>

I suspect that it's a DNS problem - although it's not totally clear from the
evidence. [A DNS server is the thing which converts a URL such as
www.bbc.co.uk into an IP address like 212.58.224.111]

The ethernet setup for your PC lists the router (192.168.1.1) as the DNS
server - which is what usually happens in a DHCP setup. The *actual* DNS
server address (provided by your ISP) is held in the router and accessed by
the PC. I suspect that the PC isn't accessing it correctly when it wakes up
after a sleep - even though it is still pointing at the same address.

You can test this theory by putting an IP address into your browser when it
refuses to connect to a URL. If it wont connect to http://www.bbc.co.uk but
it *will* connect to http://212.58.224.111 that would indicate that DNS
isn't working.

If this is the case, you can enter one or more DNS server addresses
explicitly into the TCP/IP settings for your ethernet card. [You may have to
enter a fixed IP address too - I can't remember whether you can do one
without the other - but it's no hardship].

That way, you can be sure that the PC will always find a DNS server (unless
you ISP has a hiccup!).
--
Cheers,
Tim
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:24:43 +0000, "A.R.Mills" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>I'd like to think that in that information is the answer to what I got
>wrong.

I doubt you've done anything wrong, but as Tim suggests DNS is not working.
Think of DNS as a phonebook for the internet, which works (as do phones)
only with numbers (IP addresses). To talk to any site/server by name, DNS
does the name-to-number translation. Without it, the internet appears
pretty broken ;-)

I could not be entirely sure why XP fails where 98 does not, but you do say
that your 98 machine "discovered" the router by itself. It may therefore
have set tcp/ip properties slightly differently. However, 98 also lacks any
form of sleep/hibernate/standby function (if I remember rightly) so what
works on startup should continue to work always. I have had no trouble with
XP's hibernate function on my own PCs but that is not to say there may not
be issues with some networking capabilities or even specific LAN hardware.
I know sometimes the sound card "disappears" on one of my machines which
then has to be completely powered off to recover.

Delve into the Properties for your nVidia LAN connection and see what you
have for "Obtain an IP address automatically" and "Obtain DNS server address
automatically". The first is usually checked for DHCP use, but the second
may or may not be. I would hope that if you check the "Use the following
DNS server addresses" option instead and enter suitable values, that your
problems ought to go away. Your ISP should ought to have a support page
somewhere listing their DNS servers by address (not solely by name for
obvious reasons).

If your technical interest is piqued by this problem, you could also try the
nslookup utility in a command window. On entry, it *should* inform you of a
default server name and address and prompt you with >. At the prompt you
can type in a desired name, eg. www.bbc.co.uk If DNS is working, it should
come back with name, address and sometimes alias information. If it fails,
you can enter a command such as "server nn.nn.nn.nn" where nn.nn.nn.nn is
the ip address of a known DNS server. Then try that web site again. Swap
back to 192.168.1.1 and see if the router correctly handles the next
translation. Enter "exit" to exit.

As with all Windows networking magic, once you have something working, don't
ever fiddle with it again ! Good luck.

--
He who laughs last thinks slowest!

Mail john rather than nospam...

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, John Laird
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:24:43 +0000, "A.R.Mills" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>wrote:
>
>As with all Windows networking magic, once you have something working, don't
>ever fiddle with it again ! Good luck.
>
Thank you John and Tim for your encouragement and guidance. I have
printed all your advice and suggestions and when I have a whole day to
spare and have backed everything up I'll do a serious fiddle.
The big problem is that one hour on the computer equates to about 6
hours 'real world' time;(

Richard
--
A.R.Mills

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
A.R.Mills <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> The big problem is that one hour on the computer equates to about 6
> hours 'real world' time;(
>
> Richard


And computers are supposed to *improve* your productivity!<g>
--
Cheers,
Tim
______
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