Wireless-wired-wireless re-radiator

A friend is in a basement apartment at the back of an apartment building.
From the street in front, there is a free public WAP available.
I had thought about a client radio out front, wired back to the apartment,
but then I started thinking about what wireless device would be necessary
in the apartment for wireless use in the apartment.

Would this be a pair of wireless bridges, wired together?

It might be possible to use a repeater in the front apartment of a friend
and no second device in the target apartment, but I thought putting a
second device in the back apartment would be worthwhile.

--
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> A friend is in a basement apartment at the back of an apartment
> building. From the street in front, there is a free public WAP
> available.
> I had thought about a client radio out front, wired back to the
> apartment, but then I started thinking about what wireless device
> would be necessary in the apartment for wireless use in the apartment.
>
> Would this be a pair of wireless bridges, wired together?
>
> It might be possible to use a repeater in the front apartment of a
> friend and no second device in the target apartment, but I thought
> putting a second device in the back apartment would be worthwhile.

Depends on the speed you need. If 11 Mbps is okay, consider this.. A lot of
places had 802.11b and are upgrading to g.. I usually find a few b
wap/routers that are being replaced with b/g's, and run a cat5 cable from
one to the other.. Same ssid etc and it repeats in low signal areas

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:32:31 +0000 (UTC), (E-Mail Removed)
wrote:

>A friend is in a basement apartment at the back of an apartment building.
>From the street in front, there is a free public WAP available.
>I had thought about a client radio out front, wired back to the apartment,
>but then I started thinking about what wireless device would be necessary
>in the apartment for wireless use in the apartment.
>
>Would this be a pair of wireless bridges, wired together?
>
>It might be possible to use a repeater in the front apartment of a friend
>and no second device in the target apartment, but I thought putting a
>second device in the back apartment would be worthwhile.

How close is the free hot spot to the basement? If fairly close,
methinks just running a very long coax cable with antenna above ground
will work. I did that a few years ago to get coverage to an
underground garage. Nothing would penetrate the concrete ceiling.
T'was about 100ft of cheezy Radio Shack RG-6/u CATV coax (all I could
find) to a WAP11. The loss was something like -25dB but it was
sufficient to get a useable signal. Finding a way to snake the cable
through was the difficult part.

Of course, using repeaters and WDS is possible. The trick is to make
sure you have a reliable path between the hot spot and the front
apartment, and then between the front apartment and the basement
apartment.

Since this is essentially all in one building, the basic idea would be
to install a client radio on the first floor, and somehow move data
between it and the basement apartment. Some alternatives (in order of
increasing desperation):

1. Run CAT5, coax, or fiber to client radio on ground floor.

2. Steal some phone line (2 pairs) for 10baseT ethernet. I've done
this up to 750ft with 50 pair telco bundles and switched 10baseT
ethernet ports. There are a few tricks to making this work, so bug me
for details if you wanna try it.

3. Borrow the phone lines and use them for data (HomePNA). See:
| http://www.homepna.org/

4. Borrow the building cable TV coax and run ethernet over it. Both
data and CATV can coexist on the same cable.
| http://www.multilet.com/us/baseband/...duct_range.htm

5. Power Line networking (HomePlug).
| http://www.homeplug.org/en/index.asp

6. Waveguide. I've done this using the HVAC ducting to distribute
2.4GHz in a hospital building that allowed no re-wiring. It worked
so-so but solved the problem until proper wiring could be planned and
installed. If there's an open vent to the street, you might try
placing an antenna inside and see if it propogates to the street.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> How close is the free hot spot to the basement? If fairly close,
> methinks just running a very long coax cable with antenna above ground
> will work. I did that a few years ago to get coverage to an

I didn't track down the actual location of the SSID "de-facto-open" on
moving day, but it had a strong signal at the street, poor signal in the
parking lot, implying that it was down the street the other way, and didn't
appear on NetStumbler at all inside the building at the basement level.

There was a WEP-protected signal "2wire495" that would be usable in the
basement. There are six "2wireNNN" in the vicinity. I assume these are
SBC home networking. If I tracked "495" down, maybe they would share.

> underground garage. Nothing would penetrate the concrete ceiling.

I suppose test one would be to toss a USB dongle out the window into the
unused narrow alley.

> T'was about 100ft of cheezy Radio Shack RG-6/u CATV coax (all I could
> find) to a WAP11. The loss was something like -25dB but it was
> sufficient to get a useable signal. Finding a way to snake the cable
> through was the difficult part.

Then the laptop becomes tethered in the building. While I'm at it, I'd
like to free up the laptop. There might be a free shot through the storage
area in front of this apartment to the front of the building. I didn't
check if a cable could be run, or maybe even an easy wifi repeater shot.

> Of course, using repeaters and WDS is possible. The trick is to make
> sure you have a reliable path between the hot spot and the front
> apartment, and then between the front apartment and the basement
> apartment.

Hotspot to front apartment shows 65dB in Netstumbler with just the laptop
and WG511 card. If an antenna is needed there, that would be simple
enough. I might take a router that I have and put it in the front
apartment, and see what that does to the basement, just as a signal test,
not connected to the internet at all.

If I do a repeater, I understand that would drop the feed to 50% speed, but
does it harm the original hotspot speed?

> Since this is essentially all in one building, the basic idea would be
> to install a client radio on the first floor, and somehow move data
> between it and the basement apartment. Some alternatives (in order of
> increasing desperation):

Any of the connection notions are possible. The most feasible might be to
put a "client radio" in the front apartment and run 10 BaseT to the
basement and plug it in, whether that is a separate cable or stolen wiring.
What is that "client radio" by manufacturer model? Netgear ME103?
http://www.netgear.com/products/details/ME103.php

If I wired that to downstairs, what would I put at the basement end if I
wanted wireless laptop usage?

--
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

These work great for long distances and easy to hook up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESE:IT

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:d0fbav$dpq$(E-Mail Removed)...
>A friend is in a basement apartment at the back of an apartment building.
> From the street in front, there is a free public WAP available.
> I had thought about a client radio out front, wired back to the apartment,
> but then I started thinking about what wireless device would be necessary
> in the apartment for wireless use in the apartment.
>
> Would this be a pair of wireless bridges, wired together?
>
> It might be possible to use a repeater in the front apartment of a friend
> and no second device in the target apartment, but I thought putting a
> second device in the back apartment would be worthwhile.
>
> --
> ---
> Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
>

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:01:34 +0000 (UTC), (E-Mail Removed)
wrote:

>I suppose test one would be to toss a USB dongle out the window into the
>unused narrow alley.

Yep. That would be a good first effort. The signal will bounce
around the alley a bit and might make it to the hot spot. It's worth
a try.

>Then the laptop becomes tethered in the building.

Sheesh. You didn't say it was suppose to be mobile. Well, add
another access point in the basement. One upstairs in client mode to
connect to the hot spot. One downstairs in access point mode to deal
with the laptop.

>If I do a repeater, I understand that would drop the feed to 50% speed, but
>does it harm the original hotspot speed?

Nope. I screwed up badly when I previous claimed that it cut the DSL
or cable modem bandwidth in half. It doesn't. It cuts the wireless
speed in half. So, if you get an 11Mbit/sec association speed, you'll
get about 5mbits/sec thruput. Cut that in half with a repeater to
2.5Mbits/sec. That's still faster than the usual 1.5Mbits/sec DSL
speed. It might slow down a 3mbit/sec cable connection.

Most older hot spots are 802.11b where the above numbers apply. The
newer ones use 802.11g. The wireless speed is much faster, which
means the 50% perfomance hit has even less effect.

>Any of the connection notions are possible. The most feasible might be to
>put a "client radio" in the front apartment and run 10 BaseT to the
>basement and plug it in, whether that is a separate cable or stolen wiring.
>What is that "client radio" by manufacturer model? Netgear ME103?
>http://www.netgear.com/products/details/ME103.php

The ME103 is a wireless access point with apparently (not sure) no
client mode. The upstairs box will need to have a client mode to
connect to the hot spot. Off the top of my head, any of the "game
adapter" boxes, WAP11, WAP54G, WRT54G with alternative firmware,
DWL-900AP+, and DI-2100 have a client mode.

>If I wired that to downstairs, what would I put at the basement end if I
>wanted wireless laptop usage?

The downstairs access point can be almost any access point or wireless
router used as an access point. I kinda like the WRT54G.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:01:34 +0000 (UTC), (E-Mail Removed)

>>Then the laptop becomes tethered in the building.

> Sheesh. You didn't say it was suppose to be mobile.

;-)

> The ME103 is a wireless access point with apparently (not sure) no
> client mode.

The ME103 has WDS for bridging and repeating. I thought that was the
buzzword I was after. But that would require cooperation from the hotspot,
if I read their docs correctly.

> Off the top of my head, any of the "game adapter" boxes ... have a
> client mode.

And why are they called "game adapter"? Netgear doesn't even mention the
possibility of connecting a PC. That's left for the USB adapters. Linksys
has "both" wireless-ethernet bridges and game adapters. But the game
adapter doesn't mention PCs. WGA11B Game - $59, WET11 - $64.

So a game adapter, a chunk of cable and an access point is the
wireless-wired-wireless re-radiator that I was thinking of initially.

I think I'm going to give up the untethered look.
Step one, my usb dongle out the window into the alley. Step two, my usb
dongle on active USB cable extenders to the front of the building. Step
three, a gaming adapter at the front of the building.

Side possibility, locating and cooperating with the "2wire" user that
provides adequate WEP signal already.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:59:38 +0000 (UTC), (E-Mail Removed)
wrote:

>> The ME103 is a wireless access point with apparently (not sure) no
>> client mode.

>The ME103 has WDS for bridging and repeating. I thought that was the
>buzzword I was after. But that would require cooperation from the hotspot,
>if I read their docs correctly.

Right. Cooperation is the problem. The hot spot would have to list
the ME103 in it's WDS MAC address list. That's not going to happen.
However, in client mode, that's not a problem.

>And why are they called "game adapter"?

That's the Linksys term. The idea is to connect Playstation and such
boxes to an access point. They'll work as well to a hot spot. Some
of them (i.e WET11) will bridge more than one MAC address allowing the
connection of more than one Playstation. I don't know how they do
that. In any case, they are just ethernet to wireless bridges also
known as client adapters.

>Netgear doesn't even mention the
>possibility of connecting a PC. That's left for the USB adapters. Linksys
>has "both" wireless-ethernet bridges and game adapters. But the game
>adapter doesn't mention PCs. WGA11B Game - $59, WET11 - $64.

Most game machines are really PC's in disguise. I suggest you stick
with something that can attach an external antenna such as a WAP11 or
WAP54G.

>So a game adapter, a chunk of cable and an access point is the
>wireless-wired-wireless re-radiator that I was thinking of initially.

Yep, something like that. I think running the CAT5 cable is going to
be the major challenge. Incidentally, the WAP54G is a good choice
because the power supply can be literally anything from about 4VDC to
perhaps 15VDC. Losses in the CAT5 cable can (almost) be ignored.
Just borrow a pair of wires from the CAT5 cable and connect it to the
power connector and wall wart at each end. No fancy PoE adapter
required. Can't do that with the WAP11 because it doesn't have wide
range switching regulator.

>I think I'm going to give up the untethered look.
>Step one, my usb dongle out the window into the alley. Step two, my usb
>dongle on active USB cable extenders to the front of the building. Step
>three, a gaming adapter at the front of the building.

You have this thing about USB. Well, it has its place but I'm always
running out of overpriced cable extensions when I use USB.

>Side possibility, locating and cooperating with the "2wire" user that
>provides adequate WEP signal already.

Oh, neato. Transmitter hunting is so much fun. Imagine someone
banging on your door, carrying a weird looking antenna array, a pile
of electronics, and laptop, and then asking to "borrow" the bandwidth.
I actually did something like that once and got the door slammed in my
face. Leave the hardware somewhere else. People tend to think I'm
either a terrorist or government agent. (20 years ago, it was either
an alien or foreign agent, so I think we have some progress).


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> You have this thing about USB. Well, it has its place but I'm always
> running out of overpriced cable extensions when I use USB.

I already have the USB dongle, but you're right. If I give that one up,
I'll be forced to buy another one... I use mine for adhoc at sites that
only have one PC and no NIC. Three active cable for the cheap USB dongle
put the kit up to the price of an ethernet bridge.

I think I'm headed for a game adapter and cat5... I think I can string it
through the basement storage area. I might be able to snag power close by.
I don't know about openings in the building skin. It's old, so it's
probably plaster and stucco on chicken wire with wrought iron air grills.

The WAP54G data sheet doesn't mention client mode. In the users guide
under "Access Point Client mode" it says "the remote access point must be a
second Linksys Wireless Network Access Point". Does it connect to any
access point? Are there other boxes that you know of that have the same
flexibility in power input?

>>Side possibility, locating and cooperating with the "2wire" user that
>>provides adequate WEP signal already.

> Oh, neato. Transmitter hunting is so much fun. Imagine someone
> banging on your door, carrying a weird looking antenna array, a pile

If I located the proper apartment, I would ask for an introduction from the
building manager, who is a friend.

--
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5