wireless regular loses connectivity

I would like some suggestions on tracking down/debugging the following
problem. Thanks.

--

I have the following setup.

In the "office" (on 2nd floor):
A cable modem that talks to Charter Communications.
A linksys WRT54G router.
Four machines that are plugged directly into the wired ports
of the router:
1 is a desktop
3 are thinkpad laptops in docking stations,
that also have builtin wireless cards
(the wireless cards are probably all turned on)

In various rooms on the first floor,
I have the following items all wireless:
Two Tivos using Tivo wireless adapters (a series 2, and a humax)
another laptop (a Dell with a pcmcia wireless adapter)
and occassionally one of the thinkpads from the office
is also wireless downstairs

I also have about 5 or 6 neighbors that also have wireless setups
(although only two of them get even "two bars" (I don't know nor
specifically care what units those bars are displayed in) worth of
signal strength and both those are secured as mine is, so I assume
that we haven't picked the same channel as except during the problem
times I get reasonable throughput).

Also, I have some 2.4 Ghz phones, although they are not in use at the
times I encounter the problem.

The setup mostly works ok, except that sometimes on regular intervals
the wireless connection gets lost. That is, on some days, but not
everyday (or not necessarily even once every week, although generally
at least once per week), I get into a situation where the wireless
connection seems to work for some period then lose connectivity, and
then work again for a similar period, and lose connectivity. I've not
timed the intervals, but they could be as short as 1 minute at a time,
but 5 minute intervals seem more likely. The intervals may not be the
same each time either, and sometimes it seems worse than others.

Note that I'm not absolutely certain that it is the wireless that is
losing connectivity. The symptom I'm certain that occurs, is that my
RDP connection via VPN over the internet to my desktop at work loses
connectivity. It is generally not bad enough that I completely lose
the circuit, but it does "hang up" such that I lose typing (and
redisplay) and have to minimize the session and then restore it (and
the icon that shows the connection is lost flashes during that time).

Most of the connectivity outages are relatively short, say 15-30
seconds, just long enough to interrupt my typing. Aside from this
loss of connectivity, the network seems to be fine, e.g. I can get
moderate sized files (unless the file size causes the download to
cross the loss of connectivity) off the internet without delay at
comparable rates to lan transfers at work.

Again, thanks for reading!
-Chris

On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:27:12 -0400, Chris F Clark
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<(E-Mail Removed)>:

>I would like some suggestions on tracking down/debugging the following
>problem. Thanks.

>I have the following setup.
>
>In the "office" (on 2nd floor):
> A cable modem that talks to Charter Communications.
> A linksys WRT54G router.
> Four machines that are plugged directly into the wired ports
> of the router:
> 1 is a desktop
> 3 are thinkpad laptops in docking stations,
> that also have builtin wireless cards
> (the wireless cards are probably all turned on)
>
>In various rooms on the first floor,
>I have the following items all wireless:
> Two Tivos using Tivo wireless adapters (a series 2, and a humax)
> another laptop (a Dell with a pcmcia wireless adapter)
> and occassionally one of the thinkpads from the office
> is also wireless downstairs
>
>I also have about 5 or 6 neighbors that also have wireless setups
>(although only two of them get even "two bars" (I don't know nor
>specifically care what units those bars are displayed in) worth of
>signal strength and both those are secured as mine is, so I assume
>that we haven't picked the same channel as except during the problem
>times I get reasonable throughput).

Make sure your own SSID is _unique_ (different from anyone else in the
world, especially your neighbors).

>Also, I have some 2.4 Ghz phones, although they are not in use at the
>times I encounter the problem.

They may nonetheless cause problems! Likewise the many other sources of
2.4 GHz interference (e.g., microwave ovens).

>The setup mostly works ok, except that sometimes on regular intervals
>the wireless connection gets lost. That is, on some days, but not
>everyday (or not necessarily even once every week, although generally
>at least once per week), I get into a situation where the wireless
>connection seems to work for some period then lose connectivity, and
>then work again for a similar period, and lose connectivity. I've not
>timed the intervals, but they could be as short as 1 minute at a time,
>but 5 minute intervals seem more likely. The intervals may not be the
>same each time either, and sometimes it seems worse than others.

What are the _exact_ symptoms? Does the icon in the System Tray change?
I have no idea what you mean by "gets lost" and "lose connectivity".

>Note that I'm not absolutely certain that it is the wireless that is
>losing connectivity. The symptom I'm certain that occurs, is that my
>RDP connection via VPN over the internet to my desktop at work loses
>connectivity. It is generally not bad enough that I completely lose
>the circuit, but it does "hang up" such that I lose typing (and
>redisplay) and have to minimize the session and then restore it (and
>the icon that shows the connection is lost flashes during that time).
>
>Most of the connectivity outages are relatively short, say 15-30
>seconds, just long enough to interrupt my typing. Aside from this
>loss of connectivity, the network seems to be fine, e.g. I can get
>moderate sized files (unless the file size causes the download to
>cross the loss of connectivity) off the internet without delay at
>comparable rates to lan transfers at work.

Sounds like weak signal and/or interference. You may need better
(directional) antennas -- wireless signals have trouble penetrating
walls, floors and ceilings.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

John Navas <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Make sure your own SSID is _unique_ (different from anyone else in the
> world, especially your neighbors).

I believe my ssid is unique in the world, given that it is a rather
odd one. The ssid's I see for my neighbors are distinct both from mine
and each other.

> They may nonetheless cause problems! Likewise the many other sources of
> 2.4 GHz interference (e.g., microwave ovens).

I'm pretty certain that no one was using neither the microwave nor the
phones in our house at the times I was experiencing problems. Now,
would the phones, even when not in use, send out some sort of
broadcast message. The regularity of the lossages suggest some sort
of automatic and timed event. Like someone sending out a "I'm here"
(icmp) packet.

> What are the _exact_ symptoms? Does the icon in the System Tray change?
> I have no idea what you mean by "gets lost" and "lose connectivity".

The exact symptoms are a loss of VPN connectivity. I don't recall any
icons in the system tray changing. However, some percentage of time,
when the problem "fixes itself", I get one of those "balloon boxes" in
the system tray that says, "Connected to <ssid>, strength: excellent".

> Sounds like weak signal and/or interference. You may need better
> (directional) antennas -- wireless signals have trouble penetrating
> walls, floors and ceilings.

I doubt weak signal, since I was within 1-3 meters from the router
(i.e. in the same 9x12 room, close enough for a medium length cat5
cable to reach) the last time I was experiencing the problem, and
after reconnecting, the stats show: signal strength excellent (and the
maximum "4 bars").

Interference I can't rule out. I have no idea the source though, nor
how to track it down. I also feel like it could be some kind of
collision/packet overload problem. That seems real likely to me.
However, I have no clue how to track that down either.

Thanks for response,
-Chris

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:57:18 -0400, Chris F Clark
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<(E-Mail Removed)>:

>John Navas <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>> They may nonetheless cause problems! Likewise the many other sources of
>> 2.4 GHz interference (e.g., microwave ovens).
>
>I'm pretty certain that no one was using neither the microwave nor the
>phones in our house at the times I was experiencing problems.

How about your neighbors? How about other sources of interference?

>Now,
>would the phones, even when not in use, send out some sort of
>broadcast message. The regularity of the lossages suggest some sort
>of automatic and timed event. Like someone sending out a "I'm here"
>(icmp) packet.

Certain cordless phones do indeed chatter periodically when not in use.

>> What are the _exact_ symptoms? Does the icon in the System Tray change?
>> I have no idea what you mean by "gets lost" and "lose connectivity".
>
>The exact symptoms are a loss of VPN connectivity. I don't recall any
>icons in the system tray changing. However, some percentage of time,
>when the problem "fixes itself", I get one of those "balloon boxes" in
>the system tray that says, "Connected to <ssid>, strength: excellent".

It would be really helpful to get the exact symptoms when you experience
a loss of VPN connectivity. Try pinging one of your DNS servers outside
the VPN tunnel. Try running "IPCONFIG /ALL" in a command window. Post
the exact output from both here.

>> Sounds like weak signal and/or interference. You may need better
>> (directional) antennas -- wireless signals have trouble penetrating
>> walls, floors and ceilings.
>
>I doubt weak signal, since I was within 1-3 meters from the router
>(i.e. in the same 9x12 room, close enough for a medium length cat5
>cable to reach) the last time I was experiencing the problem, and
>after reconnecting, the stats show: signal strength excellent (and the
>maximum "4 bars").

Then something else is probably going on; e.g., DHCP lease renewal
problem.

>Interference I can't rule out. I have no idea the source though, nor
>how to track it down. I also feel like it could be some kind of
>collision/packet overload problem. That seems real likely to me.
>However, I have no clue how to track that down either.

I seriously doubt that. Check your router log for errors.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

First, thanks for the advice on exactly what documentation will help
locate the problem. This is exactly what I was looking for.

John Navas <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> It would be really helpful to get the exact symptoms when you experience
> a loss of VPN connectivity. Try pinging one of your DNS servers outside
> the VPN tunnel. Try running "IPCONFIG /ALL" in a command window. Post
> the exact output from both here.

I'm not sure of an IP address of a DNS server
outside the VPN tunnel. The only addresses outside the tunnel I know
it allows me to access are 192.168 (e.g. my local lan) and from what
I've seen all the (wireless) devices hang up together. I guess I
could ping the hardwired desktop machine. Presuming I have it turned
on, as I recently have not by powering it on at all, living solely on
laptops.

The ipconfig output should be easier to get. Do I need to anonymize
any of it? Are there any addresses that posting will help promote a
security breach?

> Then something else is probably going on; e.g., DHCP lease renewal
> problem.
>
>>Interference I can't rule out. I have no idea the source though, nor
>>how to track it down. I also feel like it could be some kind of
>>collision/packet overload problem. That seems real likely to me.
>>However, I have no clue how to track that down either.
>
> I seriously doubt that. Check your router log for errors.

Ok, I'll have to investigate how to do that. I essentially run the
router in configure and forget mode. I know I used a web interface to
initially configure the router, but haven't used that in some time
(e.g. possibly weeks or months).

Is interference likely to show up in the log in some fashion?

Again, thanks.
-Chris

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:35:41 -0400, Chris F Clark
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<(E-Mail Removed)>:

>First, thanks for the advice on exactly what documentation will help
>locate the problem. This is exactly what I was looking for.
>
>John Navas <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> It would be really helpful to get the exact symptoms when you experience
>> a loss of VPN connectivity. Try pinging one of your DNS servers outside
>> the VPN tunnel. Try running "IPCONFIG /ALL" in a command window. Post
>> the exact output from both here.
>
>I'm not sure of an IP address of a DNS server
>outside the VPN tunnel. The only addresses outside the tunnel I know
>it allows me to access are 192.168 (e.g. my local lan) and from what
>I've seen all the (wireless) devices hang up together. ...

IPCONFIG/ALL would have given you the DNS servers, not to mention giving
me more to go on. Please do that before posting anything more.

>The ipconfig output should be easier to get. Do I need to anonymize
>any of it? Are there any addresses that posting will help promote a
>security breach?

There should be no real security issue. (The only possible issue would
be your IP address if it's static and not otherwise disclosed, but even
that isn't a significant issue if you are properly firewalled,
especially since you are using VPN.) Here's my current output:

| >IPCONFIG /ALL
|
| Windows IP Configuration
|
| Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : JTPT41
| Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . : navasgroup.com
| Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid
| IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
| WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
| DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : navasgroup.com
|
| Ethernet adapter Wireless Network Connection:
|
| Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
| Description . . . . . . . . . . . : 11b/g Wireless LAN Mini PCI Adapter
| Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0E-9B-A3-7B-51
| Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
| Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
| IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.193.0.129
| Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
| Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 10.193.0.1
| DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.193.0.1
| DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 207.77.152.2
| 168.215.210.50
| Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:35:21
| Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:35:21
|
| Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:
|
| Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
| Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Intel(R) PRO/1000 MT Mobile Connection
| Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0D-60-11-B6-FA

Note the DNS server addresses.

>> Then something else is probably going on; e.g., DHCP lease renewal
>> problem.
>>
>>>Interference I can't rule out. I have no idea the source though, nor
>>>how to track it down. I also feel like it could be some kind of
>>>collision/packet overload problem. That seems real likely to me.
>>>However, I have no clue how to track that down either.
>>
>> I seriously doubt that. Check your router log for errors.
>
>Ok, I'll have to investigate how to do that. I essentially run the
>router in configure and forget mode.

You're now in troubleshooting mode.

>I know I used a web interface to
>initially configure the router, but haven't used that in some time
>(e.g. possibly weeks or months).
>
>Is interference likely to show up in the log in some fashion?

The _problem_ is likely to show up in the log.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

Well, this is interesting. I've seen the output of ipconfig before and
I know this is NOT the expected output. And, it's particularly
surprising, since at the moment I am NOT having a problem with my
wireless connection. I then called up the wireless access connections
and it gives the information below.

ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

An internal error occurred: A device attached to the system is not functioning.

Please contact Microsoft Product Support Services for further help.

Additional information: Unknown media status code.

================================================== ======================

Wireless Access Connections brings up a screen that reports:

Connection status: Associated with access point

Signal Strength: 91%

Signal quality: Excellent

Transmit rate: 54.0 Mbps

Associated MAC address: 00:13:10:73:92:F6

Current channel: 0

Current location profile: home

Network name (SSID): chris.net

Network type: Access point (Infrastructure)

Security encription: Configured by Windows

Description: 11a/b/g Wireless LAN Mini PCI Adapter

MAC Address: 00:05:4E:51:16:9D

Firmware version: N/A

Driver version: 4.1.0

================================================== ======================

I'm not certain what information to get next.

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:59:02 -0400, Chris F Clark
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<(E-Mail Removed)>:

>Well, this is interesting. I've seen the output of ipconfig before and
>I know this is NOT the expected output. And, it's particularly
>surprising, since at the moment I am NOT having a problem with my
>wireless connection. I then called up the wireless access connections
>and it gives the information below.
>
>ipconfig /all
>
>Windows IP Configuration
>An internal error occurred: A device attached to the system is not functioning.
>Please contact Microsoft Product Support Services for further help.
>Additional information: Unknown media status code.

This is a known problem to which I've posted work-arounds -- see
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.internet.wireless/browse_frm/thread/1f5b6a321fd8ef35>

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

Note: Nothing is this email should be construed as coming from Intel
or as any kind of official announcement or committment. They are
simply the private opinions of the author.

John Navas <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:59:02 -0400, Chris F Clark
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
>>Well, this is interesting. I've seen the output of ipconfig before and
>>I know this is NOT the expected output. And, it's particularly
>>surprising, since at the moment I am NOT having a problem with my
>>wireless connection. I then called up the wireless access connections
>>and it gives the information below.
>>
>>ipconfig /all
>>
>>Windows IP Configuration
>>An internal error occurred: A device attached to the system is not functioning.
>>Please contact Microsoft Product Support Services for further help.
>>Additional information: Unknown media status code.
>
> This is a known problem to which I've posted work-arounds -- see
> <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.internet.wireless/browse_frm/thread/1f5b6a321fd8ef35>
>
> --
> Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
> John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
> Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
> Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

The workarounds are problematic. I work for Intel and this laptop
(and the software on it) is managed by Intel's IT department. The
corporate security policy is that we need to use Thinkpad access
connections (and Intel PROSet) on our laptops. In fact, they take a
very dim view of us reinstalling or rolling-back any drivers on our
systems. They don't even let us use Windows Update, since it might
introduce patches that "they" (the corporate IT department) haven't
"verified".

Thus, you've just turned a technical problem into a political one for
me--how to "fix" my machine without breaking my conditions of
employment.

Are there any "current" drivers which work? If not, what is the "most
current" driver that works? I will need to call IT and get permission
to install them, but there is a chance for that to be allowed,
particularly if it is a current driver (and not an older one).

The machine in question is a thinkpad T42p (and the wireless card, is
that standard one that IBM built into such units).

However, if the problem is just ipconfig not working (e.g. not
displaying the information). Is there another workaround possible?
Can I get the relevant information another way?

As I said, using access connections I get a connection and within that
program I can see the various addresses (well, I didn't find the DNS
server addresses, but I did find the addresses I previously
displayed). Moreover, I *always* use access connections, someone
(IBM? the IT department?) built turning it on into the laptop boot
procedure--access conections (and perhaps a new driver) was part of a
recent patch applied to the machine (automatically, by the IT program
that keeps our machines "in spec").

Therefore, I don't care very much if ipconfig is broken, except as it
relates to tracking down the mysterious problem of sometimes losing
connectivity, which if I recall correctly predates ipconfig being
broken (as I knew it worked at one time, since I used to use a perl
script that ran ipconfig and grepped the address to determine whether
my laptop was at home or at work).

On a related note, if there is some problem with the drivers, and you
have information that I should pass along, I can see if I can do
that--I don't know if I will be able to find the right people to pass
it along to, but I will try. We do try to "eat our own dog food" and
thus force ourselves to fix the problems that we have created.

Thanks,
-Chris

Note: Nothing is this email should be construed as coming from Intel
or as any kind of official announcement or committment. They are
simply the private opinions of the author.

Chris F Clark <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> The workarounds are problematic. I work for Intel and this laptop
> (and the software on it) is managed by Intel's IT department.

Then make it their problem. Your employer is paying these clowns to
solve problems.

> Thus, you've just turned a technical problem into a political one for
> me--how to "fix" my machine without breaking my conditions of
> employment.

Um... how bout engaging that IT department whose responsibility it is
for ensuring you have a functioning laptop?

> However, if the problem is just ipconfig not working (e.g. not
> displaying the information). Is there another workaround possible?
> Can I get the relevant information another way?

John's a helpful kinda guy. If you think he's holding onto alternate
workaround info and nost posting it to the FAQ just to spite Intel
employees, well...

> Therefore, I don't care very much if ipconfig is broken,

Suddenly you sound like an immense pain in the ass that I'm personally
not that interested in helping.

Open an helpdesk ticket with your IT department. If their policies
prevent you from working around the issue, then a fix needs to come
from them. If your it department is as clueful as the one I have to
use on similar issues, I bid you good luck.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/