Wireless range help

Can anyone give me a solution to this please?

My brother in law lives about 100 metres away and I'm thinking on setting up
a wireless network between us so that we can share an ADSL connection. Each
PC is located at the far side of the house and I need to know if its
possible to setup a network with this range without resorting to an external
antenna.

Can anyone suggest a setup that can do this?

Thanks in advance
Andy

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:46:26 -0000, "Andy"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>My brother in law lives about 100 metres away and I'm thinking on setting up
>a wireless network between us so that we can share an ADSL connection. Each
>PC is located at the far side of the house and I need to know if its
>possible to setup a network with this range without resorting to an external
>antenna.

100 meters is about the limit of what can be done using the stock
rubber ducky antennas on the access point and some type of similar
antenna on the client radio. I would consider buying one of the
allegedly 7dBi omni replacement antennas for your unspecified access
point. If the other end is a laptop or desktop, get a USB radio with
a "flip up" 1/4 wave antenna such as a Linksys WSB54G. This will
hopefully let you put the radio in the window.

However, the key to success is having line of sight. You must be able
to see (clearly) between the two antennas. That means installing both
ends in a window. Since you say that both ends of this puzzle are on
the wrong side of the house, it might be expedient to run CAT5 wire to
the other side of the house, and install the router and client radio
in this more favorable location.

Even having line of sight is not a guarantee of success. Interference
from other access points, microwave ovens, cordless phones have a
bigger effect on marginal paths. Same with reflections and multipath.
You'll just have to see what happens. If you don't have line of
sight, do whatever is necessary to get it as it probably won't work
without it. That may mean an outside or rooftop antenna, with all its
complications and aesthetic issues.

It is possible to shoot through a house. I know of several
installation with large picture windows and open hallways that work
this way. However, if the windows are small, foil coated, or
misaligned with the optimum line of sight, it probably won't work.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> 100 meters is about the limit of what can be done using the stock
> rubber ducky antennas on the access point and some type of similar
> antenna on the client radio. I would consider buying one of the
> allegedly 7dBi omni replacement antennas for your unspecified access
> point.

I think 100 meters is well out of range for the stock antennas. Maybe 100
feet.

Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application? I
would start with a reflector. It might give a clue as to whether there is a
chance of success. It would be free, and should be more than 7dBi.
http://www.freeantennas.com/projects EZ-10 and "template 2" being the
easiest.

> point. If the other end is a laptop or desktop, get a USB radio with
> a "flip up" 1/4 wave antenna such as a Linksys WSB54G. This will
> hopefully let you put the radio in the window.

I think you meant WUSB54G, but that's still an omni antenna, and only the
client side.

A chance for someone to test that unspecified $89 widget that only one
person seems to know anything about... I almost hate to post this, but it
might lead to some interesting conversations. Hmmm. We were warned...
Now that it says "Operations Will Begin March 21 2005", the price has gone
from $89 to "$139.00 Plus 9.95 shipping." I won't bother posting the link.

How about a nice Netgear WRT54G for the WAP/router end, maybe with a
panel antenna or reflector, and a Hawking HWU54D for the client, which is
what I thought you meant when you said flip-up antenna. This one is
directional.
http://www.hawkingtech.com/prodSpec.php?ProdID=208


> However, the key to success is having line of sight. You must be able
> to see (clearly) between the two antennas. That means installing both
> ends in a window. Since you say that both ends of this puzzle are on

Or outside, by going up and over the house.
I would have expected you to suggest a panel antenna from
http://www.fab-corp.com/index.htm

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:33:25 +0000 (UTC),
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> 100 meters is about the limit of what can be done using the stock
>> rubber ducky antennas on the access point and some type of similar
>> antenna on the client radio. I would consider buying one of the
>> allegedly 7dBi omni replacement antennas for your unspecified access
>> point.

>I think 100 meters is well out of range for the stock antennas. Maybe 100
>feet.

I've done about 300ft with the stock rubber duckie antennas on a WAP11
and my Orinioco Silver card under ideal conditions. It was a stretch
and I had to carefully select my position. There are quite a few web
sites that claim 300ft as the maximum range of wi-fi (without adding
antennas) but usually note that 150ft is the practical limit.

>Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?

Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
adding an EXTERNAL antenna. I presumed that an internal antenna would
be acceptable. I didn't think using a reflector was a great idea as
it would possibly affect his coverage inside the house. Basically,
there wasn't enough information to properly answer the question, so I
took my best shot at guesswork.

>I
>would start with a reflector. It might give a clue as to whether there is a
>chance of success. It would be free, and should be more than 7dBi.
>http://www.freeantennas.com/projects EZ-10 and "template 2" being the
>easiest.

Good idea. Cheap, easy, and it will tell if it's possible.

>> point. If the other end is a laptop or desktop, get a USB radio with
>> a "flip up" 1/4 wave antenna such as a Linksys WSB54G. This will
>> hopefully let you put the radio in the window.

>I think you meant WUSB54G, but that's still an omni antenna, and only the
>client side.

Sorry, typo error. I assumed no external antennas were allowed at the
client end either.

>A chance for someone to test that unspecified $89 widget that only one
>person seems to know anything about... I almost hate to post this, but it
>might lead to some interesting conversations. Hmmm. We were warned...
>Now that it says "Operations Will Begin March 21 2005", the price has gone
>from $89 to "$139.00 Plus 9.95 shipping." I won't bother posting the link.

He probably just got the bill for "testing" the gain.

>How about a nice Netgear WRT54G for the WAP/router end, maybe with a
>panel antenna or reflector, and a Hawking HWU54D for the client, which is
>what I thought you meant when you said flip-up antenna. This one is
>directional.
>http://www.hawkingtech.com/prodSpec.php?ProdID=208

Sure. Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.
Methinks not. I would prefer a dedicated link. Two WAP54G setup as a
transparent bridge with as big an external antenna as they can afford
(mostly to keep the beam narrow and therefore reduce interference
problems). CAT5 to the existing access points. Leave the inside
access points on the opposite sides of the house alone for inside
coverage. Two WAP54G's, two 12dBi antennas, pigtails, about $250
total. Ouch.

Actually, that's boring and pedestrian. For point to point at 100
meters, methinks FSO (free space optics) is the way to go. No
interference, very secure, fairly reliable, and no FCC in sight. The
problem is that the demand isn't there so the prices are still rather
high. Fog is also a problem. With LED's instead of lasers, eye
safety is not an issue.
http://www.plaintree.com/products.htm
Just don't ask the price.

>> However, the key to success is having line of sight. You must be able
>> to see (clearly) between the two antennas. That means installing both
>> ends in a window. Since you say that both ends of this puzzle are on

>Or outside, by going up and over the house.
>I would have expected you to suggest a panel antenna from
>http://www.fab-corp.com/index.htm

Nope. He said no external antennas and he want to shoot through both
houses. I try to answer the question that is asked. Sometimes, I
actually succeed.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:33:25 +0000 (UTC),
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>100 meters is about the limit of what can be done using the stock
>>>rubber ducky antennas on the access point and some type of similar
>>>antenna on the client radio. I would consider buying one of the
>>>allegedly 7dBi omni replacement antennas for your unspecified access
>>>point.
>
>
>>I think 100 meters is well out of range for the stock antennas. Maybe 100
>>feet.
>
>
> I've done about 300ft with the stock rubber duckie antennas on a WAP11
> and my Orinioco Silver card under ideal conditions. It was a stretch
> and I had to carefully select my position. There are quite a few web
> sites that claim 300ft as the maximum range of wi-fi (without adding
> antennas) but usually note that 150ft is the practical limit.
>
>
>>Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?
>
>
> Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
> adding an EXTERNAL antenna. I presumed that an internal antenna would
> be acceptable. I didn't think using a reflector was a great idea as
> it would possibly affect his coverage inside the house. Basically,
> there wasn't enough information to properly answer the question, so I
> took my best shot at guesswork.
>
>
>>I
>>would start with a reflector. It might give a clue as to whether there is a
>>chance of success. It would be free, and should be more than 7dBi.
>>http://www.freeantennas.com/projects EZ-10 and "template 2" being the
>>easiest.
>
>
> Good idea. Cheap, easy, and it will tell if it's possible.
>
>
>>>point. If the other end is a laptop or desktop, get a USB radio with
>>>a "flip up" 1/4 wave antenna such as a Linksys WSB54G. This will
>>>hopefully let you put the radio in the window.
>
>
>>I think you meant WUSB54G, but that's still an omni antenna, and only the
>>client side.
>
>
> Sorry, typo error. I assumed no external antennas were allowed at the
> client end either.
>
>
>>A chance for someone to test that unspecified $89 widget that only one
>>person seems to know anything about... I almost hate to post this, but it
>>might lead to some interesting conversations. Hmmm. We were warned...
>>Now that it says "Operations Will Begin March 21 2005", the price has gone
>
>>from $89 to "$139.00 Plus 9.95 shipping." I won't bother posting the link.
>
> He probably just got the bill for "testing" the gain.
>
>
>>How about a nice Netgear WRT54G for the WAP/router end, maybe with a
>>panel antenna or reflector, and a Hawking HWU54D for the client, which is
>>what I thought you meant when you said flip-up antenna. This one is
>>directional.
>>http://www.hawkingtech.com/prodSpec.php?ProdID=208
>
>
> Sure. Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.
> Methinks not. I would prefer a dedicated link. Two WAP54G setup as a
> transparent bridge with as big an external antenna as they can afford
> (mostly to keep the beam narrow and therefore reduce interference
> problems). CAT5 to the existing access points. Leave the inside
> access points on the opposite sides of the house alone for inside
> coverage. Two WAP54G's, two 12dBi antennas, pigtails, about $250
> total. Ouch.
>
> Actually, that's boring and pedestrian. For point to point at 100
> meters, methinks FSO (free space optics) is the way to go. No
> interference, very secure, fairly reliable, and no FCC in sight. The
> problem is that the demand isn't there so the prices are still rather
> high. Fog is also a problem. With LED's instead of lasers, eye
> safety is not an issue.
> http://www.plaintree.com/products.htm
> Just don't ask the price.
>
>
>>>However, the key to success is having line of sight. You must be able
>>>to see (clearly) between the two antennas. That means installing both
>>>ends in a window. Since you say that both ends of this puzzle are on
>
>
>>Or outside, by going up and over the house.
>>I would have expected you to suggest a panel antenna from
>>http://www.fab-corp.com/index.htm
>
>
> Nope. He said no external antennas and he want to shoot through both
> houses. I try to answer the question that is asked. Sometimes, I
> actually succeed.
>
>
I have been observing this thread, hoping there would be added
discussion, as I have a system configured already and wanted to
stretch it. I am running all Linksys, WMP54G PCI Adapter,with a
rubber duck, WRT54G Router with the high gain 7dBi antenna set.
Distance between PC and router is 111', signal strength,
consistently very good. Signal strength with stock antenna on router
is consistently low (two bars), but remains connected with out any
apparent problem. The router is connected to a Motorola cable modem.
What I intend on doing is to install DirectWay dish and satellite
service at a point 227' in the opposite direction, line of sight to
my barn along with another WRT54G wireless router and install the
high gain antennas on it.I have one of the flip up directional
antennas, but was extremely dissatisfied with it because there is
only 36" of cable on it. Can barely reach the table above the tower,
let alone putting it in the window. One other tidbit, my PC desktop
is located in my camper, the camper can also fit in the barn.

--
BILL P.
Just Dog
&
ME

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?

> Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
> adding an EXTERNAL antenna. I presumed that an internal antenna would

Why does internal/external make the distinction between omni and
directional? A patch is fairly innocuous.

> be acceptable. I didn't think using a reflector was a great idea as
> it would possibly affect his coverage inside the house.

It would improve things. If the WAPs are at "the wrong ends of the house"
a reflector would help the WAP coverage in that house.

> Sure. Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.

I think it does. One guy has a WAP. The other wants to poach his link.
A panel on the wall near the WAP, maybe cleverly relocated a little toward
the target client, so the backside is still usable.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:09:51 +0000 (UTC),
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?
>
>> Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
>> adding an EXTERNAL antenna. I presumed that an internal antenna would
>
>Why does internal/external make the distinction between omni and
>directional? A patch is fairly innocuous.

I'm guessing that he has the access point on the other side of the
house for covering the inside of his house. If he changes that to a
directional antenna, it might screw up the coverage inside the house.
Again, this is guesswork on my part and may not be true.

>It would improve things. If the WAPs are at "the wrong ends of the house"
>a reflector would help the WAP coverage in that house.

I beg to differ. He said on the other side of the house. If the
pattern is changed to go through the house, the coverage say 90
degrees and behind the access point will be decreased. Antennas don't
create RF signals. They borrow RF from what normally radiates to the
sides, back, up, down, and other undesired directions, and sends it in
the desired direction.

>> Sure. Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.
>
>I think it does. One guy has a WAP. The other wants to poach his link.
>A panel on the wall near the WAP, maybe cleverly relocated a little toward
>the target client, so the backside is still usable.

Ok. I yield. Let the original poster describe the topology and
enough of my guesswork.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# (E-Mail Removed)
# (E-Mail Removed) AE6KS

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:09:51 +0000 (UTC),
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>Why would you suggest an omni antenna for a point to point application?
>>
>>> Because I interpreted that the question was what could be done without
>>> adding an EXTERNAL antenna. I presumed that an internal antenna would
>>
>>Why does internal/external make the distinction between omni and
>>directional? A patch is fairly innocuous.
>
> I'm guessing that he has the access point on the other side of the
> house for covering the inside of his house. If he changes that to a
> directional antenna, it might screw up the coverage inside the house.
> Again, this is guesswork on my part and may not be true.
>
>>It would improve things. If the WAPs are at "the wrong ends of the house"
>>a reflector would help the WAP coverage in that house.
>
> I beg to differ. He said on the other side of the house. If the
> pattern is changed to go through the house, the coverage say 90
> degrees and behind the access point will be decreased. Antennas don't
> create RF signals. They borrow RF from what normally radiates to the
> sides, back, up, down, and other undesired directions, and sends it in
> the desired direction.
>
>>> Sure. Now read the original question and see if your answer fits.
>>
>>I think it does. One guy has a WAP. The other wants to poach his link.
>>A panel on the wall near the WAP, maybe cleverly relocated a little toward
>>the target client, so the backside is still usable.
>
> Ok. I yield. Let the original poster describe the topology and
> enough of my guesswork.
>
>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> # (E-Mail Removed)
> # (E-Mail Removed) AE6KS

Thanks for your input guys. The 2 PC's are located at the far side of each
house and the phone line in is near the front of my house. It seems that an
8MB ADSL connection may be available in my area soon and my brother in law
and I thought about getting it and sharing the cost. I need to know if there
is a solution whereby I don't need to use any external antenna's purely
because it's easier to buy and use a stock setup (wireless ADSL router and 2
wireless cards in the PC's?). I found it a little hard to find out
information regarding ranges of wireless products and thought that this is
probably the best place to ask.

The 2 houses are approx 60 - 80m apart (I probably over estimated at 100m in
the earlier post) with line of site between them.

Andy.

Andy wrote:


>
> Thanks for your input guys. The 2 PC's are located at the far side of each
> house and the phone line in is near the front of my house. It seems that an
> 8MB ADSL connection may be available in my area soon and my brother in law
> and I thought about getting it and sharing the cost. I need to know if there
> is a solution whereby I don't need to use any external antenna's purely
> because it's easier to buy and use a stock setup (wireless ADSL router and 2
> wireless cards in the PC's?). I found it a little hard to find out
> information regarding ranges of wireless products and thought that this is
> probably the best place to ask.
>
> The 2 houses are approx 60 - 80m apart (I probably over estimated at 100m in
> the earlier post) with line of site between them.
>
> Andy.
>
>
One would think by placing the wireless points at the closest ends of
the houses and running cat 5 back to the computers and dsl modem you
stand a very good chance of success , assuming of course there is a
reasonable line of sight with nothing like a house in between ?

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:40:10 -0000, "Andy"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Thanks for your input guys. The 2 PC's are located at the far side of each
>house and the phone line in is near the front of my house. It seems that an
>8MB ADSL connection may be available in my area soon and my brother in law
>and I thought about getting it and sharing the cost.

8Mbit/sec ADSL sharing is going to require outside antennas. If your
brother in law wants the full 8Mbits/sec delivered to his house,
you'll need a wireless connection that's running at about
20-24Mbits/sec speed. That's doable as the maximum with 802.11g is
54Mbits/sec but is gonna be tough. You didn't mention anything about
using the wireless for local connections so I'll assume a dedicated
link. Let's play with the numbers. I'll assume a pair of WAP54G
bridge radios, a 3ft coax cable pigtail, 80meters, and a symmetrical
system. The goal is to get at least 20dB fade margin.

To get 8Mbits/sec thruput, with some headroom, you'll need about a
24Mbits/sec association. That gives a sensitivity of -79dBm. The
following is from a DI-624 but the WAP54G should be fairly close:
* 54Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -68dBm)
* 48Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -68dBm)
* 36Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -75dBm)
* 24Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -79dBm)
* 18Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -82dBm)
* 12Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -84dBm)
* 11Mbps CCK, 8% PER, -82dBm)
* 9Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -87dBm)
* 6Mbps OFDM, 10% PER, -88dBm)
* 5.5Mbps CCK, 8% PER, -85dBm)
* 2Mbps QPSK, 8% PER, -86dBm)
* 1Mbps BPSK, 8% PER, -89dBm)

Pluging the quesswork into:
http://www.terabeam.com/support/calculations/som.php
TX power = +15dBm
TX coax loss = 4dB (3ft LMR-240 plus a mess of connectors)
TX ant gain = unknown
Distance = 0.05 miles (80 meters)
RX ant gain = unknown
RX coax loss = 4dB (same at other end)
RX sens = -79dBm (at 24Mbits/sec OFDM)
Fade Margin = >20dB
A bit of plugging shows that 7dBi gain antenna will work. That puts
the system in the coffee can antenna, biquad, and small panel antenna
class. This should be a no brainer.

Just for fun, I plugged in what I would guess would be two WAP54 or
WRT54G (with alternative firmware) boxes using the stock antennas
without reflectors.
TX power = +15dBm
TX coax loss = 1dB (two connectors)
TX ant gain = 1dBi
Distance = 0.05 miles (80 meters)
RX ant gain = 1dBi
RX coax loss = 1dB (two connectors)
RX sens = -79dBm (at 24Mbits/sec OFDM)
Fade Margin = unknown
which yields a fade margin of 16dB. This will work, at 24Mbits/sec
but just barely. However, it's close enough to the target 20dB fade
margin that a pair of added reflectors such as:
http://www.freeantennas.com
will certainly bring the fade margin above 20dB.

Conclusion is that it will not work with the stock antennas, but will
work just fine with either added reflectors or fairly minimal external
antennas.

>I need to know if there
>is a solution whereby I don't need to use any external antenna's purely
>because it's easier to buy and use a stock setup (wireless ADSL router and 2
>wireless cards in the PC's?).

Mistake. Please don't get an all in one conglomeration. The problem
is that the modem, router and switch parts of the puzzle want to live
where all the wires come together. That's usually on the floor, in a
closet, in the basement, or other RF hostile location. Meanwhile, the
wireless part of the puzzle wants to live as high as possible, and in
clear sight of the wireless users. These requirements are mutually
incompatible. Methinks it's best to get 3 seperate boxes for each of
the functions. The ADSL modem can live near the phone line MPOE. The
router/switch can live near where all the wires come together. The
wireless can live in the window with line of sight to the brother in
law. Also, if you change service, or a new wireless technology
appears, you won't have to throw away the entire conglomerated box.
Seperate boxes are a bit more expensive, but are far more versatile.

Also, what exactly to you mean by "external" antennas? External to
the building or external to the wireless box? If you have line of
sight through two windows, and there's nothing in the window to cause
RF blockage such as an aluminized coating, then an 8dBi antenna of
some sort can be used inside the house and through the window. No
need to drill a hole in the wall and mount the antenna outside.

>I found it a little hard to find out
>information regarding ranges of wireless products and thought that this is
>probably the best place to ask.
>
>The 2 houses are approx 60 - 80m apart (I probably over estimated at 100m in
>the earlier post) with line of site between them.

If the houses are that close, is it possible to run a cable between
them? That will solve many of the wireless issues, insure security,
and probably be cheaper. If connected between switched ports,
ethernet can go officially to 100 meters of cable, and far more
unofficially. I like to use RG-6/u CATV coax for my outside runs
(because I have LOTS of it) with 10base2 coax to 10baseT adapters at
each end. The 50/75ohm mismatch is not a problem at 100 meters of
cable. I've gone about 300 meters of cable with this method. There
are other tricks available using telephone cabling, fiber, FSO (free
space optics), and fence wire.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558