Wireless Broadband - Options?

I live in a rural area (Camas, Washington), currently using 28.8K dialup.

ISDN is available, but far too expensive for home use.

I'm too far out for DSL, Cable isn't available out here, and we have too
many tall fir trees for satellite (I've heard lots of negatives with that
anyway).

We live up on a mountain, with nothing between us and the surrounding areas
other than the trees surrounding us.

From what I've been able to determine from online listings, the nearest Wi-
Fi "hotspot" is probably 5-10 miles from here.

Wireless seems ideal, but I really don't know what options I have
available.

I found one company locally that provides wireless internet service, but
they seldom respond to my emails. They apparently came out to test the
signal and couldn't get a good signal because of the trees. They said they
had another "non line of sight" system, but I haven't heard back from them
about that.

Anyway, what wireless technologies are available that might work in my
situation?

Thanks,

Anthony

Without a tower to get above the trees your options are slim. The ISP was
probably talking about a 900Mhz system but with alot of trees that may be a
problem too.
One solution would be put up a tower high enough to get a shot at the
southern sky and put in a satellite or put up a tower to get a RF LOS with
the ISP.

My 2 cents.


"HerHusband" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns95AA77D1C6F17herhusband@216.168.3.50...
> I live in a rural area (Camas, Washington), currently using 28.8K dialup.
>
> ISDN is available, but far too expensive for home use.
>
> I'm too far out for DSL, Cable isn't available out here, and we have too
> many tall fir trees for satellite (I've heard lots of negatives with that
> anyway).
>
> We live up on a mountain, with nothing between us and the surrounding
areas
> other than the trees surrounding us.
>
> From what I've been able to determine from online listings, the nearest
Wi-
> Fi "hotspot" is probably 5-10 miles from here.
>
> Wireless seems ideal, but I really don't know what options I have
> available.
>
> I found one company locally that provides wireless internet service, but
> they seldom respond to my emails. They apparently came out to test the
> signal and couldn't get a good signal because of the trees. They said they
> had another "non line of sight" system, but I haven't heard back from them
> about that.
>
> Anyway, what wireless technologies are available that might work in my
> situation?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony

HerHusband wrote:

> I live in a rural area (Camas, Washington), currently using 28.8K dialup.
>
> ISDN is available, but far too expensive for home use.
>
> I'm too far out for DSL, Cable isn't available out here, and we have too
> many tall fir trees for satellite (I've heard lots of negatives with that
> anyway).
>
> We live up on a mountain, with nothing between us and the surrounding areas
> other than the trees surrounding us.
>
> From what I've been able to determine from online listings, the nearest Wi-
> Fi "hotspot" is probably 5-10 miles from here.
>
> Wireless seems ideal, but I really don't know what options I have
> available.
>
> I found one company locally that provides wireless internet service, but
> they seldom respond to my emails. They apparently came out to test the
> signal and couldn't get a good signal because of the trees. They said they
> had another "non line of sight" system, but I haven't heard back from them
> about that.
>
> Anyway, what wireless technologies are available that might work in my
> situation?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony

You have to have something to communicate with at the other end. If the
wireless ISP can't help you as the situation is now, you're probably
down to deciding if the tall trees are more valuable or the internet
service. You could put up a tower that's taller than the trees or you
can use a chainsaw and lower the trees.

The non line-of-sight solutions are usually 900MHz pieces of equipment
that are better at shooting through trees, but if the ISP's access point
is several miles away that would seem iffy. 5-10 miles with
line-of-sight is doable with strong directional antennas. 5-10 miles
non-line-of-sight isn't really practical at present. But with RF
equipment, often times you get surprised. Sometimes to the good,
sometimes to the bad.

Roger,

> you're probably down to deciding if the tall trees are more valuable
> or the internet service.

The trees are definitely more valuable to us than the internet service.
That's why we moved out here.

In addition, most of the surrounding trees are on neighbors properties
anyway. They aren't ours to cut.

> 5-10 miles with line-of-sight is doable with strong directional antennas.
> 5-10 miles non-line-of-sight isn't really practical at present.

Hmm... That's what I'm afraid of... I may be stuck with dial-up for a
while.

Is there anything new with powerline broadband services (broadband internet
delivered over standard power lines)?

Thanks,

Anthony

HerHusband wrote:

> Is there anything new with powerline broadband services (broadband internet
> delivered over standard power lines)?

Unless something has happened in the last few weeks it's still in the
experimental stages. The big hurdle is that the networking won't pass
through transformers. So at least one power company is tinkering with
getting the packets out to the poles in different neighborhoods and then
putting in a wireless access point to make the last link to the houses.
"The Last Mile" as it's commonly referred to, is a stinker of a problem.
Lots of solutions are in the works, nothing seems to be rising head and
shoulders above the others as the solution.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:58:30 -0500, Rôgêr <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>HerHusband wrote:
>
>> Is there anything new with powerline broadband services (broadband internet
>> delivered over standard power lines)?

>Unless something has happened in the last few weeks it's still in the
>experimental stages. The big hurdle is that the networking won't pass
>through transformers.

BPL (broadband over power line) is evil. It clobbers HF
communications. The equipment isn't much better than prototypes at
this time. A substantial number of the BPL trials have been cancelled
or listed as a failure for various reasons.
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/
http://www.rac.ca/regulatory/plc.htm

>So at least one power company is tinkering with
>getting the packets out to the poles in different neighborhoods and then
>putting in a wireless access point to make the last link to the houses.
>"The Last Mile" as it's commonly referred to, is a stinker of a problem.
>Lots of solutions are in the works, nothing seems to be rising head and
>shoulders above the others as the solution.

Methinks y'er thinking of Corridor:
http://www.corridor.biz
They turn a single power line into a microwave transmission line using
the G-Line principle. Instead of trashing the HF spectrum, they use
various bands between 800MHz and 10GHz. Very little radiation from
the G-Line. The last 100ft is via 802.11b (Grrrr...)
http://www.carc.org.uk/html/archive19.html
The big problems are that it doesn't go around corners very well,
doesn't go through xformers, and is more expensive than the Amperion
HF jamming abomination.



--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# (E-Mail Removed)
# 831.421.6491 digital_pager (E-Mail Removed) AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:58:30 -0500, Rôgêr <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>HerHusband wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Is there anything new with powerline broadband services (broadband internet
>>>delivered over standard power lines)?
>
>
>>Unless something has happened in the last few weeks it's still in the
>>experimental stages. The big hurdle is that the networking won't pass
>>through transformers.
>
>
> BPL (broadband over power line) is evil. It clobbers HF
> communications. The equipment isn't much better than prototypes at
> this time. A substantial number of the BPL trials have been cancelled
> or listed as a failure for various reasons.
> http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/
> http://www.rac.ca/regulatory/plc.htm
>
>
>>So at least one power company is tinkering with
>>getting the packets out to the poles in different neighborhoods and then
>>putting in a wireless access point to make the last link to the houses.
>>"The Last Mile" as it's commonly referred to, is a stinker of a problem.
>>Lots of solutions are in the works, nothing seems to be rising head and
>>shoulders above the others as the solution.
>
>
> Methinks y'er thinking of Corridor:
> http://www.corridor.biz
> They turn a single power line into a microwave transmission line using
> the G-Line principle. Instead of trashing the HF spectrum, they use
> various bands between 800MHz and 10GHz. Very little radiation from
> the G-Line. The last 100ft is via 802.11b (Grrrr...)
> http://www.carc.org.uk/html/archive19.html
> The big problems are that it doesn't go around corners very well,
> doesn't go through xformers, and is more expensive than the Amperion
> HF jamming abomination.
>

The electric company that I was thinking of was getting the networking
out to the different neighborhoods with an 802.11b access point mounted
on the pole to finish the circuit to the house. I don't remember seeing
this one with the wires generating signal. I probably was not clear when
I mentioned the "Last Mile". It wasn't a reference to any particular
power company or technology, it was a reference to the overall problem
of getting broadband to everyone in the hard-to-reach areas all over the
U.S. Lots of ideas, nothing looking real great at the moment.

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:35:21 -0500, Rôgêr <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>The electric company that I was thinking of was getting the networking
>out to the different neighborhoods with an 802.11b access point mounted
>on the pole to finish the circuit to the house.

Sounds like a cheap electric company. The only reason they would do
that would be because they didn't want to connect an RF bridge around
all the "last mile" power transformers. They could just deliver the
data directly to the customers wall outlet but are apparently using
only the high voltage power lines for distribution. 802.11 from the
pole (or xformer) eliminates that hassle.

Actually, it probably wasn't the utility company that was cheap. The
trials I've investigated all seem to show the utility company as an
innocent bystander. Their attitude seems to be that this must be a
money maker from the first day, and that at best, they'll be an
investor and not an active participant. They lease out the use of
their power distribution infrastructure to a company that can build a
communications network on top of it. The communications company can
get its own financing, run its own trials, and deal with ALL the
hassles. The utility company will help, but not very much. I know of
at least one BPL trial that never went beyond a paper tiger because
both "partners" had radically different assumptions as to the nature
of the relationship.

>I don't remember seeing
>this one with the wires generating signal.

Well, if we simply define this as a method of moving data down a power
distribution infrastructure, I can think of at least 4 different
approaches. Personally, I like the G-Line approach. I've build
G-Lines and see the possibilities. However, like any retrofit of
existing infrastructure, the topology and construction are not ideal.
Changes and compromises will need to be made, which is not a trivial
exercise on a massive power grid scale.

>I probably was not clear when
>I mentioned the "Last Mile". It wasn't a reference to any particular
>power company or technology, it was a reference to the overall problem
>of getting broadband to everyone in the hard-to-reach areas all over the
>U.S. Lots of ideas, nothing looking real great at the moment.

Well, ok. I've been there before. Every single communications system
proposed before the FCC is justified on the basis of providing service
to the poor, underserved, and politically sensitive rural areas. I'll
spare you my list of such proposals, that once approved, were
instantly implimented first in the denser and more profitable
metropolitan areas, while being ignored in the very rural areas they
were originally intended to serve. Hard to reach means expensive and
that part of the equation isn't going to go away. If BPL is going to
happen (I hope not), then it will be in the denser areas, and not in
the hard to reach rural areas.

Incidentally, using wireless from the pole isn't anything new. LMDS
(Local Multipoint Distribution Service) is designed to do exactly
that. 28Ghz radios, hung on the utility pole, back fed by BPL, telco
copper, coax, fiber, or another radio, has been proposed, licensed,
auctioned, and generally ignored for about 10 years. Like 802.11,
it's a solution to the "last 100ft" problem. It's major limitation is
the expense and availability of 28GHz hardware.
http://www.lmdswireless.com/resources.html
http://nwest.nist.gov/lmds.html

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558