WiFi under Linux - rant no 7

Why is WiFi configuration under Linux so painful
and time-consuming?

You put your WiFi card in the laptop.
If you're lucky one light comes on.
If you are really lucky the second light starts flashing.
(I'm thinking of Orinoco-like cards.)

But you get no message from the computer.
You try "ping www.google.com" but this meets with silence.

No-one tells you, but sooner or later you look in /etc/pcmcia
and deduce that the computer reads "config"
and then perhaps "wireless.opts".
Unless the kernel is very recent,
in which case it tries to use hostap whatever you say.

What would I like?
First of all I'd like to be told the card is actually working.
Then I'd like to be told if it could "hear" any other WiFi source,
and if so what I need to do to link to it.

The wizards I've tried (mainly in RedHat and more recently Fedora)
are utterly useless.
I thought NetworkManager would be the answer,
but now I doubt if any such program can work with all WiFi cards.
In my case it simply added to the problems
by altering configuration files already set up.

As a general rule, I'd like any program that alters files
to be obliged to copy the previous version
(in such a way as not to over-write earlier versions,
eg config1, config2, etc).
And I'd like any program that alters config files
to tell me what files it has altered.

I believe millions of hours have been wasted around the world
getting WiFi set up.

Windows is not perfect, by any means -
I'd give it 5 out of 10, and Linux 1 out of 10.
At least when Windows WiFi doesn't work,
it doesn't work -
it doesn't hint that it may start working
if only you try a bit harder.
Though the Windows Troubleshooter
is almost as bad as the Linux wizards.



--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Timothy Murphy <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>Why is WiFi configuration under Linux so painful
>and time-consuming?

It isn't. Worked out of the box for me.


>You put your WiFi card in the laptop.

My laptop already had one.

>If you're lucky one light comes on.
>If you are really lucky the second light starts flashing.
>(I'm thinking of Orinoco-like cards.)

>But you get no message from the computer.

Why should you get a message from the computer? What message?

>You try "ping www.google.com" but this meets with silence.

Yes, not only do you need the network card in the computer but you have to
tell it that you want it to connect. Not everyone wants to connect to any
random AP that happens to be around when the laptop is switched on. And if
there are 10 AP, whch one do you want.

Many distros have a wireless setup gui. Use it.

Or you can set it up by hand.
Which distro do you use?



>No-one tells you, but sooner or later you look in /etc/pcmcia
>and deduce that the computer reads "config"
>and then perhaps "wireless.opts".
>Unless the kernel is very recent,
>in which case it tries to use hostap whatever you say.

????
Not on my distro it does not. Are we supposed to guess your distro?


>What would I like?
>First of all I'd like to be told the card is actually working.

You want a whole array of messages on your screen "The wireless is working"
" The hard drive is working" "the keyboard is working", "The screen is
working",..... I sure would not.

>Then I'd like to be told if it could "hear" any other WiFi source,
>and if so what I need to do to link to it.

iwlist s
in a terminal window.


>The wizards I've tried (mainly in RedHat and more recently Fedora)
>are utterly useless.

Ah so you use redhat?

>I thought NetworkManager would be the answer,
>but now I doubt if any such program can work with all WiFi cards.

????

>In my case it simply added to the problems
>by altering configuration files already set up.

Now if you had some questions people might be able to help you.


>As a general rule, I'd like any program that alters files
>to be obliged to copy the previous version
>(in such a way as not to over-write earlier versions,
>eg config1, config2, etc).
>And I'd like any program that alters config files
>to tell me what files it has altered.

OK, you have told us what you would like. Some do that, others do not.


>I believe millions of hours have been wasted around the world
>getting WiFi set up.

Well, maybe. Mine were not.


>Windows is not perfect, by any means -
>I'd give it 5 out of 10, and Linux 1 out of 10.
>At least when Windows WiFi doesn't work,
>it doesn't work -
>it doesn't hint that it may start working
>if only you try a bit harder.

??? Now if only you gave us some information we might be able to point out
what it is you are doing wrong.


>Though the Windows Troubleshooter
>is almost as bad as the Linux wizards.


There are about 100 troubleshooting methods under Linux.

a) lsmod|less
look for th ewireless module driver.
If it is loaded
b) iwlist s
Do AP show up? Under what port? (eth1? wlan0? ath0?....)

c)Edit /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-eth1 ( or whatever the port
was) and enter the relevant info ESSID, KEY, ...
ifup eth1

Of course you also have to tell the system whether you want the default
route out of the wireless or the eth0 port.

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:48:03 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:

> Why is WiFi configuration under Linux so painful
> and time-consuming?
>
<snip>

> The wizards I've tried (mainly in RedHat and more recently Fedora)
> are utterly useless.

No argument, there.
<snip>
> Windows is not perfect, by any means -
> I'd give it 5 out of 10, and Linux 1 out of 10.
> At least when Windows WiFi doesn't work,
> it doesn't work -
> it doesn't hint that it may start working
> if only you try a bit harder.
> Though the Windows Troubleshooter
> is almost as bad as the Linux wizards.
>
Note: comment inline.

The sig you have been using for quite some time indicates you may be a
professor (correct?) Well, professor, when I used RedHat I felt like I'd
need a pH.D. to figure out how to fix it when it was broken (which was all
of the time.) Instead of bitching about it, I switched disributions. Try
slackware. That distibution follows the principle of Occam's razor- I'm
sure you know it.

--
Ellie: How did you do it? How did you evolve? How did you
survive this technological adolescence without destroying yourself?
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0118884/quotes

Timothy Murphy wrote:

> Why is WiFi configuration under Linux so painful
> and time-consuming?
>
> You put your WiFi card in the laptop.
> If you're lucky one light comes on.
> If you are really lucky the second light starts flashing.
> (I'm thinking of Orinoco-like cards.)
>
> But you get no message from the computer.
> You try "ping www.google.com" but this meets with silence.
>
> No-one tells you, but sooner or later you look in /etc/pcmcia
> and deduce that the computer reads "config"
> and then perhaps "wireless.opts".
> Unless the kernel is very recent,
> in which case it tries to use hostap whatever you say.
>
> What would I like?
> First of all I'd like to be told the card is actually working.
> Then I'd like to be told if it could "hear" any other WiFi source,
> and if so what I need to do to link to it.
>
> The wizards I've tried (mainly in RedHat and more recently Fedora)
> are utterly useless.
> I thought NetworkManager would be the answer,
> but now I doubt if any such program can work with all WiFi cards.
> In my case it simply added to the problems
> by altering configuration files already set up.
>
> As a general rule, I'd like any program that alters files
> to be obliged to copy the previous version
> (in such a way as not to over-write earlier versions,
> eg config1, config2, etc).
> And I'd like any program that alters config files
> to tell me what files it has altered.
>
> I believe millions of hours have been wasted around the world
> getting WiFi set up.
>
> Windows is not perfect, by any means -
> I'd give it 5 out of 10, and Linux 1 out of 10.
> At least when Windows WiFi doesn't work,
> it doesn't work -
> it doesn't hint that it may start working
> if only you try a bit harder.
> Though the Windows Troubleshooter
> is almost as bad as the Linux wizards.
>
>
>
I am about to try Wi-Fi under Mandriva. There are plenty of wizards
provided, and there are a couple of points to watch that I have seen on the
Web. I will let you know how I find it. As Bill says, you need to
understand at a basic level why you are taking each step. Like you, I am
not a tech type. I am a lawyer.

The other thing is that you need to do things at the remote unit as well.

Doug.
--
Dogmatism is only puppyism come to full growth.

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:48:03 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:

> Why is WiFi configuration under Linux so painful
> and time-consuming?
>
> You put your WiFi card in the laptop.
> If you're lucky one light comes on.
> If you are really lucky the second light starts flashing.
> (I'm thinking of Orinoco-like cards.)
>
> But you get no message from the computer.
> You try "ping www.google.com" but this meets with silence.
>
> No-one tells you, but sooner or later you look in /etc/pcmcia
> and deduce that the computer reads "config"
> and then perhaps "wireless.opts".
> Unless the kernel is very recent,
> in which case it tries to use hostap whatever you say.
>
> What would I like?
> First of all I'd like to be told the card is actually working.
> Then I'd like to be told if it could "hear" any other WiFi source,
> and if so what I need to do to link to it.
>
> The wizards I've tried (mainly in RedHat and more recently Fedora)
> are utterly useless.
> I thought NetworkManager would be the answer,
> but now I doubt if any such program can work with all WiFi cards.
> In my case it simply added to the problems
> by altering configuration files already set up.
>
> As a general rule, I'd like any program that alters files
> to be obliged to copy the previous version
> (in such a way as not to over-write earlier versions,
> eg config1, config2, etc).
> And I'd like any program that alters config files
> to tell me what files it has altered.
>
> I believe millions of hours have been wasted around the world
> getting WiFi set up.
>
> Windows is not perfect, by any means -
> I'd give it 5 out of 10, and Linux 1 out of 10.
> At least when Windows WiFi doesn't work,
> it doesn't work -
> it doesn't hint that it may start working
> if only you try a bit harder.
> Though the Windows Troubleshooter
> is almost as bad as the Linux wizards.


Jeez - I don't know why you had such difficulty. I plugged a Belkin
wireless card into my laptop, followed a couple of simple steps to set up
ndiswrapper, and voila - there it was. No hassle, no fuss, took about
three minutes. I've done this with Elive, (K)Ubuntu, and Suse.

ray wrote:

>> Why is WiFi configuration under Linux so painful
>> and time-consuming?

> Jeez - I don't know why you had such difficulty. I plugged a Belkin
> wireless card into my laptop, followed a couple of simple steps to set up
> ndiswrapper, and voila - there it was. No hassle, no fuss, took about
> three minutes. I've done this with Elive, (K)Ubuntu, and Suse.

So, you were lucky.
But what were the "couple of simple steps"?
What would you have done if those steps had not worked?

It really shows a lack of imagination to say
"What problem? It works fine on my completely different computer,
with a completely different WiFi card."

It is obvious from reading this newsgroup
that many people _do_ have problems setting up WiFi.
And in my opinion Linux is very, very bad at helping them.

When my car has broken down,
I do not find it much help for a spectator to say,
"I don't know what you are worrying about.
My car is working fine."





--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:13:02 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:

> ray wrote:
>
<snip>

> It is obvious from reading this newsgroup
> that many people _do_ have problems setting up WiFi.
> And in my opinion Linux is very, very bad at helping them.
>
> When my car has broken down,
> I do not find it much help for a spectator to say,
> "I don't know what you are worrying about.
> My car is working fine."
>
Things evolve under GNU/Linux, with support becoming better over time for
more devices/protocols. If you have to wait for someone to
/* wizardize */ the solution so it will be palatable for you, then
you'll have to wait longer in general. Also, if you are starting with
unsupported hardware, then you might have to wait indefinitely for
support. If you want support /* now */, then you have to pursue other
options. You can write the code yourself, or set a bounty for the work to
be done, etc. It won't magically appear because you wish that it
existed.

To maximize all of the contributions made by the entire free
software/open source movement, you need to learn to use the source. Look
for a distribution which gives you the power to do that. If you don't,
then you are at a disadvantage. People, like me, will point out that
it could be working for you- because you asked the question. I won't tell
you how to fix RedHat/Fedora because I gave up on that approach. If
you need RH/FC fixed on your system, then _your_ work is in front of you.

Part of using GNU/Linux (and other OSs as well) is learning how to fix it
when its broken. This is one area where the various distributions diverge.
Some distro's don't expect the end user to be able to fix anything for
himself, while other distro's expect that he can do simple things, and
others expect that you have compiled and bootstrapped completely from
scratch. Decide where you fit in that picture.

--
Douglas Mayne

On 2006-03-16, Timothy Murphy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> When my car has broken down,
> I do not find it much help for a spectator to say,
> "I don't know what you are worrying about.
> My car is working fine."

When my car has broken down, I pay a mechanic to fix it, and I don't
rant at the guy I'm paying when explaining my issue.

--keith

--
kkeller-(E-Mail Removed)
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom
see X- headers for PGP signature information

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:13:02 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:

> ray wrote:
>
>>> Why is WiFi configuration under Linux so painful
>>> and time-consuming?
>
>> Jeez - I don't know why you had such difficulty. I plugged a Belkin
>> wireless card into my laptop, followed a couple of simple steps to set up
>> ndiswrapper, and voila - there it was. No hassle, no fuss, took about
>> three minutes. I've done this with Elive, (K)Ubuntu, and Suse.
>
> So, you were lucky.
> But what were the "couple of simple steps"?
> What would you have done if those steps had not worked?

It was like 'ndiswrapper -i /locationofdrivers' followed by 'modprobe
ndiswrapper' - all documented in the ndiswrapper man pages. I don't
understand why it wouldn't have worked - I checked before I went shopping
and got a card supported under ndiswrapper. "If I were president, then the
moon would be made of green cheese." - A false assumption leads to any
conclusion you want.

>
> It really shows a lack of imagination to say
> "What problem? It works fine on my completely different computer,
> with a completely different WiFi card."
>
> It is obvious from reading this newsgroup
> that many people _do_ have problems setting up WiFi.
> And in my opinion Linux is very, very bad at helping them.

In my rather limited experience, if you google first, pick a supported
card and follow a few simple instructions - it works. The people who have
problems generally are working with a non-supported card. The off-brand
card that came with my laptop did not work. Simple solution: $30 for an
ndiswrapper supported card.


>
> When my car has broken down,
> I do not find it much help for a spectator to say,
> "I don't know what you are worrying about.
> My car is working fine."

ray wrote:

>>> Jeez - I don't know why you had such difficulty. I plugged a Belkin
>>> wireless card into my laptop, followed a couple of simple steps to set
>>> up ndiswrapper, and voila - there it was. No hassle, no fuss, took about
>>> three minutes. I've done this with Elive, (K)Ubuntu, and Suse.
>>
>> So, you were lucky.
>> But what were the "couple of simple steps"?
>> What would you have done if those steps had not worked?
>
> It was like 'ndiswrapper -i /locationofdrivers' followed by 'modprobe
> ndiswrapper' - all documented in the ndiswrapper man pages. I don't
> understand why it wouldn't have worked - I checked before I went shopping
> and got a card supported under ndiswrapper.

Personally, I regard as ndiswrapper as a second-best solution
at the best of times - something I'd use if nothing else worked.

In any case, didn't you have to specify an encryption key?
An ESSID?
Do you have a static IP address?
If so, how did the WiFi device at the other end know about it?
How did your laptop know what AP to link to?
Was it told what APs were available?

Even with Windows - which in this one area
is miles ahead of linux -
you don't just put a card in and it is connected.
What would it connect to?

> In my rather limited experience, if you google first, pick a supported
> card and follow a few simple instructions - it works.

I wouldn't describe a card that only works with ndiswrapper as "supported".

> The people who have
> problems generally are working with a non-supported card. The off-brand
> card that came with my laptop did not work. Simple solution: $30 for an
> ndiswrapper supported card.

Why not get a card supported by the kernel?

In any case, you have not said what you would do if your card did not work.
Apparently you had one that did not work,
and your solution was to get another one.
But presumably the card that did not work for you
did work under Windows.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland