Why not Channel 6?

I got me a new laptop today, a Dell Inspiron 5160 with a built-in
wireless...specifically, a Dell 1350 Mini-PCI wireless card.

My router is a Linksys BEFW11S4 V2, latest firmware, set to Channel 6,
128-bit encryption.

Here's the deal: My old laptop, which uses an Orinoco Gold wireless PCMCIA
card, works like a champ under these settings, I've never had to twiddle
with anything.

The new laptop won't connect. Not under Channel 6, anyhow. If I switch the
router to Channel 1, it will work, but it definitely seems slower than the
throughput I was getting on the old card and the old laptop.

Both systems are running XP Home, SP2.

I know my way around TCP/IP, but I admit I'm not too advanced on the
wireless aspects. I read elsewhere on this group that I might check to see
if power saving has been turned on for the wireless card (and I think it may
have been), but I don't know if that explains why Channel 6 isn's working.

I apologize if I'm leaving out some important information...tell me what's
missing and I'll be happy to check up on it. Why would Channel 6 on the
router work on one card and not on another, and is there anything I can do
to make Channel 6 work with the new laptop? I've always had good luck with
it with the old equipment, so I don't think there's a lot of interference
there, and it seems sensible to go with what's working.

Thanks for the help!
--
Chris Lemon
(E-Mail Removed)
http://fredsmythe.com
EFNet: FredSmyth

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:55:31 GMT, "Chris Lemon"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I got me a new laptop today, a Dell Inspiron 5160 with a built-in
>wireless...specifically, a Dell 1350 Mini-PCI wireless card.

I just setup a Dell 5150 laptop with wireless. Identical to the 5160
but with a slightly slower processor. Works just fine to a DLink
DI-614+ on channel 11. (Incidentally, watch out for the power
connector. The wire to the tiny center pin will break if you shove
the laptop, with the connector attached, into the wall behind the
laptop).

>My router is a Linksys BEFW11S4 V2, latest firmware, set to Channel 6,
>128-bit encryption.

Are you sure it's the latest firmware? Bring up the web config and
read the version number in the upper right corner of the page.

>Here's the deal: My old laptop, which uses an Orinoco Gold wireless PCMCIA
>card, works like a champ under these settings, I've never had to twiddle
>with anything.

OK, the BEFW11s4 v2 is deemed functional.

>The new laptop won't connect. Not under Channel 6, anyhow. If I switch the
>router to Channel 1, it will work, but it definitely seems slower than the
>throughput I was getting on the old card and the old laptop.

Ok, verify that it's the laptop. Drag it to a nearby free hot spot
and try to connect. Same with any neighbors systems you can see. You
don't need to actually connect, just get the signal strength and
signal quality (S/N ratio). If that laptop doesn't work at a hot
spot, then it's time to yell at Dell.

>Both systems are running XP Home, SP2.

Good. There are quite a few wireless fixes in SP2.

>I know my way around TCP/IP, but I admit I'm not too advanced on the
>wireless aspects.

One paragraph summary. 802.11 wireless encapsulates 802.3 ethernet
packets. Delivery is via bridging, not routeing. Layer 3 settings
and features are handled exactly the same way they would be handled
with a wired ethernet connection. In infrastructure mode, the access
point selects the channel and the client radios follow.

>I read elsewhere on this group that I might check to see
>if power saving has been turned on for the wireless card (and I think it may
>have been), but I don't know if that explains why Channel 6 isn's working.

Power save won't have any effect. The idea behind power save is to
turn off the radio when it's not being used.

One possibility is that you have some setting on the client set to
802.11g mode only. I dunno if there is such a setting on the Dell
client, but it might cause connection difficulties.

Another possibility is that you've loaded some wireless sniffing or
monitoring software that is interfering with the driver. Ethereal,
NTop, Netstumbler, and such will cause problems. I'm not too sure
about Boingo (Earthlink wireless) which comes with the Dell. Try to
uninstall or disable it. Incidentally, for disabling startup
programs, I recommend Startup inspector for Windoze 2.10:
http://www.windowsstartup.com (640KB)

>I apologize if I'm leaving out some important information...tell me what's

>missing and I'll be happy to check up on it. Why would Channel 6 on the
>router work on one card and not on another, and is there anything I can do
>to make Channel 6 work with the new laptop? I've always had good luck with
>it with the old equipment, so I don't think there's a lot of interference
>there, and it seems sensible to go with what's working.

The Dell should work on channel 6. I think it's busted. However, the
only way to be absolutely sure is to try it with another known working
wireless access point (hot spot) and to disable anything that might
cause problems.



--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Are you sure it's the latest firmware? Bring up the web config and
> read the version number in the upper right corner of the page.

110% sure. I went to Linksys's Web site tonight to double-confirm. 1.45.10,
April 15, 2004.

> Ok, verify that it's the laptop. Drag it to a nearby free hot spot
> and try to connect.

I will do this. It is convenient that there is a bookstore just a minute or
two up the road from me with free wireless access, so this is an easy task.

> You
> don't need to actually connect, just get the signal strength and
> signal quality (S/N ratio).

Here's what it reports right now, with the router (which we have concluded
works) on 6:
Signal: -58 dBm
Noise: -86 dBm

I wish I could tell you what the Orinoco is getting as a comparison, but I
don't have an equivalent utility on this machine, I don't think.

....now THIS is interesting, and not in a good way. Connecting to a
neighbor's (unsecured) "Apple Network e9464f", running on Channel 10, I get
the following:

Signal: -77 dBm
Noise: -85 dBm

I also get a 36 Mbps connection, so this must be at 802.11g connection (my
router only supports 802.11b so I'm only ever gonna get 11 at home), but the
Web's nice and zippy now, whereas it doesn't connect at all on my router,
even if I change IT to Channel 10. But this card SHOULD work over 11b.

> If that laptop doesn't work at a hot spot, then it's time to yell at Dell.

Yeah, I wasn't looking forward to that, especially with this new news that
it seems to be fine with 11g.

> One possibility is that you have some setting on the client set to
> 802.11g mode only. I dunno if there is such a setting on the Dell
> client, but it might cause connection difficulties.

Nothing I saw. Besides, it doesn't explain that half-assed connection on
Channel 1.

> Another possibility is that you've loaded some wireless sniffing or
> monitoring software that is interfering with the driver. Ethereal,
> NTop, Netstumbler, and such will cause problems.

It's new out of the box today. All I've done is uninstall. I even told them
"no ISP, please" when I ordered it, so there was no AOL _or_ Earthlink to
worry about.

> The Dell should work on channel 6. I think it's busted.

I do too. I hope the free wireless at the bookstore is 11b so I can be sure,
because if it's G I suspect it's gonna work....

Thanks for the help. If you have any more thoughts on this, they're
welcomed.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:01:51 GMT, "Chris Lemon"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Here's what it reports right now, with the router (which we have concluded
>works) on 6:
>Signal: -58 dBm
>Noise: -86 dBm

Thats a fairly strong signal with good S/N ratio. You should have no
RF problems. I thought it might be a fried receiver or xmitter, but I
guess not.

>I wish I could tell you what the Orinoco is getting as a comparison, but I
>don't have an equivalent utility on this machine, I don't think.

Client Manager -> Tools -> Site Survey (or something like that).
You end up with a page showing a table of SSID, signal, noise, MAC,
etc.

>...now THIS is interesting, and not in a good way. Connecting to a
>neighbor's (unsecured) "Apple Network e9464f", running on Channel 10, I get
>the following:
>
>Signal: -77 dBm
>Noise: -85 dBm

Still a good signal. That's an Apple Airport Extreme 802.11g access
point.

>I also get a 36 Mbps connection, so this must be at 802.11g connection (my
>router only supports 802.11b so I'm only ever gonna get 11 at home), but the
>Web's nice and zippy now, whereas it doesn't connect at all on my router,
>even if I change IT to Channel 10. But this card SHOULD work over 11b.

Oh swell. It works with "g" but not "b". See if Dell has any updates
to the wireless drivers on their support web pile. This is too weird
to be hardware.

>> One possibility is that you have some setting on the client set to
>> 802.11g mode only. I dunno if there is such a setting on the Dell
>> client, but it might cause connection difficulties.

>Nothing I saw. Besides, it doesn't explain that half-assed connection on
>Channel 1.

Yeah, you're right. I was guessing. One thing you might check is if
you have your routers "wireless performance" page set to short
preamble. It should be long preamble. I've seen such weirdness where
"g" works and "b" doesn't with preamble, timing, and other oddities.

>I do too. I hope the free wireless at the bookstore is 11b so I can be sure,
>because if it's G I suspect it's gonna work....

I hate to tell you this, but most of the local do-it-thyself hotspots
use WRT54GS routers with Sveasoft firmware and which allow 802.11g
connections. Starbucks, Waypoint, iPass, and Boingo are all mostly
802.11b.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:01:51 GMT, "Chris Lemon"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Client Manager -> Tools -> Site Survey (or something like that).
> You end up with a page showing a table of SSID, signal, noise, MAC,
> etc.

Mm-kay, I'll need to download that. (Like I said, all of this "just worked"
before, so to keep hard drive bloat to a minimum, I never installed any
utilities on the old machine.)

> Oh swell. It works with "g" but not "b". See if Dell has any updates
> to the wireless drivers on their support web pile. This is too weird
> to be hardware.

Yeah, that didn't exactly whip me into a froth of excitement either. I'll
check on the updates today at work, I think.

> Yeah, you're right. I was guessing. One thing you might check is if
> you have your routers "wireless performance" page set to short
> preamble. It should be long preamble. I've seen such weirdness where
> "g" works and "b" doesn't with preamble, timing, and other oddities.

Everything on that page is set default. Now, I DID read a slightly unrelated
item on Dell's site suggesting I change both Basic Rates (which is defaulted
to 1-2 Mbps) and TX Rates (default: 1-2-5.5-11) to 1-2. But that strikes me
as throttling the potential speed of the connection, unless I don't
understand what those values mean. If that is the case, then it's an
unacceptable solution.

(Fortunately, this being a new laptop, and me having the At-Home service on
my contract, I have, what, 21 days to hash this out with Dell, and if we
cannot come to a satisfactory conclusion, I can tell them to shove their
laptop with a minimum of monetary loss on my end. This was a luxury buy, not
a necessary one. Which is why it ought to be a lot more fun than it
currently is.)

> I hate to tell you this, but most of the local do-it-thyself hotspots
> use WRT54GS routers with Sveasoft firmware and which allow 802.11g
> connections. Starbucks, Waypoint, iPass, and Boingo are all mostly
> 802.11b.

Well, if it is it is. This is piggybacking off of wireless from the branch
of the library in the same building, so we'll see. All we wanted were S/N
numbers anyhow, right? And we already know those are pretty good on my
router, so I'm not sure that's gonna tell us anything we don't already know
right now anyhow....

At any rate, more when I get it....thanks again for sticking with me!
--
Chris Lemon
(E-Mail Removed)
http://fredsmythe.com
EFNet: FredSmyth

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:55:16 GMT, "Chris Lemon"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:01:51 GMT, "Chris Lemon"
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Client Manager -> Tools -> Site Survey (or something like that).
>> You end up with a page showing a table of SSID, signal, noise, MAC,
>> etc.

>Mm-kay, I'll need to download that. (Like I said, all of this "just worked"
>before, so to keep hard drive bloat to a minimum, I never installed any
>utilities on the old machine.)

You already have it. If there's a little bar graph signal strength
display in the system tray, right click on it and select "Run Client
Manager" (or something like that).

>Yeah, that didn't exactly whip me into a froth of excitement either. I'll
>check on the updates today at work, I think.

There may not be any updates. The 5150 I setup was amazingly up to
date. XP SP2 was installed along with a few recent Windoze Updates.
MS Office was also up to date. I guess Dell is finally responding to
complaints about long update ordeals on initial installation.

>Everything on that page is set default. Now, I DID read a slightly unrelated
>item on Dell's site suggesting I change both Basic Rates (which is defaulted
>to 1-2 Mbps) and TX Rates (default: 1-2-5.5-11) to 1-2. But that strikes me
>as throttling the potential speed of the connection, unless I don't
>understand what those values mean. If that is the case, then it's an
>unacceptable solution.

Bad idea. That limits your maximum rate to the older 802.11
1-2mbits/sec rates. That's fine for connecting to an antique access
point, but not for the current problem.

>(Fortunately, this being a new laptop, and me having the At-Home service on
>my contract, I have, what, 21 days to hash this out with Dell, and if we
>cannot come to a satisfactory conclusion, I can tell them to shove their
>laptop with a minimum of monetary loss on my end.

Careful. You'll find that the at home service only covers the
hardware. You gotta deal with Microsloth for the software.
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topi...n&~section=010
See section on what is *NOT* covered. At least they'll replace the
wireless card.

>This was a luxury buy, not
>a necessary one. Which is why it ought to be a lot more fun than it
>currently is.)

If it were easy, it would be no fun.
One must suffer before enlightenment.

You might wanna try the various Dell online forums. The Dell
representatives get bored easily and could probably use an unusual
challenge:
http://forums.us.dell.com
The hard part is figuring out which forum to ask questions. Looks
like: Inspiron -> Network is full of wireless clues.
http://forums.us.dell.com/supportfor...d=insp_network
This troubleshooting guide actually looks fairly sane:
http://forums.us.dell.com/supportfor...essage.id=4573



--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> There may not be any updates. The 5150 I setup was amazingly up to
> date.

Well, I found a new driver dated 10/20/04. It _could_ already be there (and
I'd be impressed it it were), and based on what it indicated the changes
were, I'm not sure if it will help, but it was enough of a positive find to
get me through the work day until I can try it tonight.

> Bad idea. That limits your maximum rate to the older 802.11
> 1-2mbits/sec rates. That's fine for connecting to an antique access
> point, but not for the current problem.

Exactly what I thought.

> Careful. You'll find that the at home service only covers the
> hardware. You gotta deal with Microsloth for the software.
> http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topi...n&~section=010
> See section on what is *NOT* covered. At least they'll replace the
> wireless card.

Well, yes, that's what I meant, they'll come out and try a new card. I have
connections inside MS that can help me with the rest, if need be. I was
referring to the Total Satisafaction policy that allows me to reverse the
whole transaction (albeit at my shipping expense) if I'm not, well, totally
satisfied.

> You might wanna try the various Dell online forums. The Dell
> representatives get bored easily and could probably use an unusual
> challenge:
> http://forums.us.dell.com
> The hard part is figuring out which forum to ask questions. Looks
> like: Inspiron -> Network is full of wireless clues.
> http://forums.us.dell.com/supportfor...d=insp_network
> This troubleshooting guide actually looks fairly sane:
> http://forums.us.dell.com/supportfor...essage.id=4573

I'll look into these as well. More as I get it....
--
Chris Lemon
(E-Mail Removed)
http://fredsmythe.com
EFNet: FredSmyth

"Chris Lemon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:erTfd.323151$3l3.3196@attbi_s03...
> Well, I found a new driver dated 10/20/04. It _could_ already be there
> (and I'd be impressed it it were), and based on what it indicated the
> changes were, I'm not sure if it will help, but it was enough of a
> positive find to get me through the work day until I can try it tonight.

Driver wasn't there, so I installed it. Didn't help. But I DO have a theory,
and it's...well, I dunno what it is.

I'm pretty sure it's a plain ol' incompatibility between the 1350 card and
the Linksys BEFW11S4 v2 router. I went down to the bookstore tonight, fired
up the machine, and connected to a 802.11b wireless network on Channel 10.

Worked like a champ.

I downloaded the MS .NET 1.1 SDK (100 megs plus, nice chunky file), and got
something like 360K per second. Web pages loaded all over the place. I am
forced to conclude that nothing is wrong with the wireless card. It just
plain doesn't like my router. Since it's been revised twice since, I suppose
it's not impossible.

So I guess the next step is to email both Linksys and Dell and see if this
apparent incompatibility is a known issue or not, and see if I can get out
of Dell a list of routers that are known to work with this card. I'd LIKE to
buy another Linksys, because I like the featureset and I'm familiar with the
interface, but I need to know it'll work first.
--
Chris Lemon
(E-Mail Removed)
http://fredsmythe.com
EFNet: FredSmyth

Would be intersting to know if it worked on 5 or 7 or any other, or if it is
only 6. Its possible that you have some narrowbandish noise in the channel 6
range that prevents a good s/n ratio.



"Chris Lemon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:X5_fd.328069$D%.29895@attbi_s51...
> "Chris Lemon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:erTfd.323151$3l3.3196@attbi_s03...
> > Well, I found a new driver dated 10/20/04. It _could_ already be there
> > (and I'd be impressed it it were), and based on what it indicated the
> > changes were, I'm not sure if it will help, but it was enough of a
> > positive find to get me through the work day until I can try it tonight.
>
> Driver wasn't there, so I installed it. Didn't help. But I DO have a
theory,
> and it's...well, I dunno what it is.
>
> I'm pretty sure it's a plain ol' incompatibility between the 1350 card and
> the Linksys BEFW11S4 v2 router. I went down to the bookstore tonight,
fired
> up the machine, and connected to a 802.11b wireless network on Channel 10.
>
> Worked like a champ.
>
> I downloaded the MS .NET 1.1 SDK (100 megs plus, nice chunky file), and
got
> something like 360K per second. Web pages loaded all over the place. I am
> forced to conclude that nothing is wrong with the wireless card. It just
> plain doesn't like my router. Since it's been revised twice since, I
suppose
> it's not impossible.
>
> So I guess the next step is to email both Linksys and Dell and see if this
> apparent incompatibility is a known issue or not, and see if I can get out
> of Dell a list of routers that are known to work with this card. I'd LIKE
to
> buy another Linksys, because I like the featureset and I'm familiar with
the
> interface, but I need to know it'll work first.
> --
> Chris Lemon
> (E-Mail Removed)
> http://fredsmythe.com
> EFNet: FredSmyth
>
>
>

"Airhead" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:4180f3c5$0$797$(E-Mail Removed). ..
> Would be intersting to know if it worked on 5 or 7 or any other, or if it
> is
> only 6. Its possible that you have some narrowbandish noise in the channel
> 6
> range that prevents a good s/n ratio.

Oh, no, I've tried literally all 11 channels by now, and the old laptop and
card has been just fine every time, and the new one doesn't do squat.
Besides, we've taken S/N readings and they're fine. Nope, it's a plain-ol
incompatibility between the two cards, I think. Only thing it really CAN be
at this point.

I talked to Dell this morning., and the furthest I got with the Indian was
that he wanted to rip out and reinstall the drivers. and beyond that,
exchange the whole PC, which is stupid considering that the problem is
solely with a wholly removable and replacable part. "But it WORKS, it worked
at the hotspot!", I said, but he wasn't having it. He also tried to tell me
that Dell has NEVER heard about this potential incompatibility before, which
I just don't buy considering it's not exactly an uncommon router.

So we'll see. I wish I could get escalated somehow to someone who actually
speaks the language, trying to conduct a conversation with someone halfwar
around the world, with the electronic pauses and whatnot, is awfully trying,
nevermind my personal opinions about outsourcing.
--
Chris Lemon
(E-Mail Removed)
http://fredsmythe.com
EFNet: FredSmyth

>
>
> "Chris Lemon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:X5_fd.328069$D%.29895@attbi_s51...
>> "Chris Lemon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:erTfd.323151$3l3.3196@attbi_s03...
>> > Well, I found a new driver dated 10/20/04. It _could_ already be there
>> > (and I'd be impressed it it were), and based on what it indicated the
>> > changes were, I'm not sure if it will help, but it was enough of a
>> > positive find to get me through the work day until I can try it
>> > tonight.
>>
>> Driver wasn't there, so I installed it. Didn't help. But I DO have a
> theory,
>> and it's...well, I dunno what it is.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure it's a plain ol' incompatibility between the 1350 card
>> and
>> the Linksys BEFW11S4 v2 router. I went down to the bookstore tonight,
> fired
>> up the machine, and connected to a 802.11b wireless network on Channel
>> 10.
>>
>> Worked like a champ.
>>
>> I downloaded the MS .NET 1.1 SDK (100 megs plus, nice chunky file), and
> got
>> something like 360K per second. Web pages loaded all over the place. I am
>> forced to conclude that nothing is wrong with the wireless card. It just
>> plain doesn't like my router. Since it's been revised twice since, I
> suppose
>> it's not impossible.
>>
>> So I guess the next step is to email both Linksys and Dell and see if
>> this
>> apparent incompatibility is a known issue or not, and see if I can get
>> out
>> of Dell a list of routers that are known to work with this card. I'd LIKE
> to
>> buy another Linksys, because I like the featureset and I'm familiar with
> the
>> interface, but I need to know it'll work first.
>> --
>> Chris Lemon
>> (E-Mail Removed)
>> http://fredsmythe.com
>> EFNet: FredSmyth
>>
>>
>>
>
>