WCML & Virgin Trains causing broadband problems (X-Posted to uk.t.b)

All;

I've been talking to someone on the thinkbroadband forum about a problem
there having with passing virgin trains and there broadband connection
failing. - Posted with permission;

Copy of post: (Some minor edits to remove non required bits)

"Scenario is i live with the main midland to EDB main line at the bottom
of my garden apx 180 metres away from house (i actually live 10 miles
south of Milton Keynes on the soubury exchange)

every time a virgin train goes past my HEC count goes through the roof
and the exchange cuts the line due to the errors. i have agood SNR and
have 4mb down (i am 3.8Km from exchange)

I get 150+ disconnection/reconnection a day since the line was put in
(it was both a new phone and adsl line)

I have had 3 openreach engineers out the third had seen the self same
problem and stayed for an hour and we proved it was when a virgin train
goes past (occasionally happened on other trains as well) apparently the
only solution is to go to a fixed speed system but even then it is not
guaranteed that the problem will completely go away.
<snip>
disconnected EVERYTHING INCLUDING PHONE and this also had no effect.

I also tried setting router to wireless bridged mode to eliminate the
interference being picked up by my network cable, no effect and yes i
also tried switching off all wireless.

anyone ever heard had or solved this problem?

Anyone know why it is MOSTLY (99%) virgin trains that give the problem?

cheers for any advice."

Post By: g7pkf
Link:
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...apsed&sb=5&o=0


This chap has a GSM-R mast at the bottom of his garden (From a photo he
took) He live's between Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard stations in a
place called stoke Hammond.

There has been talk of traction motor interference, EMF/EMI problems etc..
Dose anyone here have any information on the line between these 2
stations, neutral sections, any ERTMS trials or any idea for this chap
why he might be getting these problems specifically with virgin services.

(We have done some calculations int he office and worked out that
assuming 2 virgin 22x's where passing under power they could be
demanding 4MW off the OHLE) Other thoughts where around regen breaking
and so on.

Anyway any one have any ideas? I'm also after some drawings of the WCML
(I have the London Eastern production area and other parts of the ECML
for work, but nothing on the WCML here)



Thanks!

Q wrote:

> Anyway any one have any ideas? I'm also after some drawings of the WCML
> (I have the London Eastern production area and other parts of the ECML
> for work, but nothing on the WCML here)

You'll need a Quail map to get the most accurate representation of the railway.
http://www.quailmapcompany.free-online.co.uk/

J

>Anyone know why it is MOSTLY (99%) virgin trains that give the problem?
>
>cheers for any advice."
>
>Post By: g7pkf
>Link:
>http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...Number=2881569
>&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0
>
>
>This chap has a GSM-R mast at the bottom of his garden (From a photo he
>took) He live's between Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard stations in a
>place called stoke Hammond.
>
>There has been talk of traction motor interference, EMF/EMI problems etc..
>Dose anyone here have any information on the line between these 2
>stations, neutral sections, any ERTMS trials or any idea for this chap
>why he might be getting these problems specifically with virgin services.
>
>(We have done some calculations int he office and worked out that
>assuming 2 virgin 22x's where passing under power they could be
>demanding 4MW off the OHLE) Other thoughts where around regen breaking
>and so on.
>
>Anyway any one have any ideas? I'm also after some drawings of the WCML
>(I have the London Eastern production area and other parts of the ECML
>for work, but nothing on the WCML here)
>
>
>
>Thanks!

ADSL does use an RF bearer and could be subject to RF interference
though this would have to be a a rather high level for that to happen.

If it was caused bu some sort of RF field off the Virgin train then I'm
sure the Officers from the Radio Investigation Service now part of Ofcom
would be very interested indeed!. It could be some sort of inadvertent
"mixing" that is where two or more frequencies that do not directly
cause a problem can combine to produce others which do interfere..

One other possibility.. Bit remote.. might be that the ADSL to the
exchange might come in on a bearer grade microwave link and that is
being reflected/diffracted but I would have thought that BT would be
onto that sharpish!.. Then again seeing what they don't get up to these
days..perhaps not!.

Any neighbours also affected?. This is one good way of isolating these
sort of problems as is also a spectrum analyser looking at the affected
frequencies when a train goes by....
--
Tony Sayer

Q wrote:
>
> (We have done some calculations in the office and worked out that
> assuming 2 virgin 22x's were passing under power they could be
> demanding 4MW off the OHLE)

That would be a bit of a novelty. ;-) Class 220s and 221s are
diesel-powered. ITYM class 390s (Pendolinos) - part of the new stock
previously referred to as "Power-Hungry Lard-Butts".

On 07/02/2007 11:59, Jack Taylor wrote:
> Q wrote:
>
>>(We have done some calculations in the office and worked out that
>>assuming 2 virgin 22x's were passing under power they could be
>>demanding 4MW off the OHLE)
>
>
> That would be a bit of a novelty. ;-) Class 220s and 221s are
> diesel-powered. ITYM class 390s (Pendolinos) - part of the new stock
> previously referred to as "Power-Hungry Lard-Butts".

Ops! YEs, your quite right. Its cold outside!

On 07/02/2007 11:41, tony sayer wrote:
<Snip>

> ADSL does use an RF bearer and could be subject to RF interference
> though this would have to be a a rather high level for that to happen.

We do radio comms in our office, and this is what we said. Far higher
then to just upset the DSL stuff anyway.

> If it was caused bu some sort of RF field off the Virgin train then I'm
> sure the Officers from the Radio Investigation Service now part of Ofcom
> would be very interested indeed!. It could be some sort of inadvertent
> "mixing" that is where two or more frequencies that do not directly
> cause a problem can combine to produce others which do interfere..

I Think someone has already mentioned that to him, We had had problems
like this before, and its a bit hit and miss as to how much help Ofcom
are. I Think it depends who you are, and how much its affecting you.

> One other possibility.. Bit remote.. might be that the ADSL to the
> exchange might come in on a bearer grade microwave link and that is
> being reflected/diffracted but I would have thought that BT would be
> onto that sharpish!.. Then again seeing what they don't get up to these
> days..perhaps not!.

Indeed. We had this over Xmas with a Xmas tree in Ilford to one of our
sites!, that was with C&W not BT. They where quite quick to come out and
move the 'up a bit' I on the other hand would have found the offending
xmas tree and taken a chainsaw with me

Bah Humbug! I wont have festive things taking out my microwave links!

> Any neighbours also affected?. This is one good way of isolating these
> sort of problems as is also a spectrum analyser looking at the affected
> frequencies when a train goes by....

Not sure, I'll ask him see what he says on that one.

Thanks for the help so far folks.

tony sayer wrote:

> ADSL does use an RF bearer and could be subject to RF interference
> though this would have to be a a rather high level for that to happen.

We had a problem a year or so ago where our ADSL connection dropped
every night at around dusk and didn't return until dawn. We managed to
track it down to a faulty (flickery) floodlight on the forecourt of a
car showroom about 150m away - the other side of the railway (which runs
along the bottom of our garden). A quick chat with the manager of the
garage on the phone soon sorted the problem.

It was amazing that our connection could be upset by the RF from the
faulty floodlight, considering the distance from our property! I doubt a
quick word with Virgin would sort anything in this case though.

--
Jonathan Stott
Canterbury, Kent
http://www.canterburyweather.co.uk/

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:59:00 +0000, Q <..@..> quoted:
>
>"Anyone know why it is MOSTLY (99%) virgin trains that give the problem?
>
>cheers for any advice."


If you change your ISP to Virgin Media (formerly NTL) the problem will
almost certainly disappear.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tony Polson
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:59:00 +0000, Q <..@..> quoted:
>>
>>"Anyone know why it is MOSTLY (99%) virgin trains that give the problem?
>>
>>cheers for any advice."
>
>
>If you change your ISP to Virgin Media (formerly NTL) the problem will
>almost certainly disappear.
>

Is he on their network?..
--
Tony Sayer

Q wrote:

> "Scenario is i live with the main midland to EDB main line at the bottom
> of my garden apx 180 metres away from house (i actually live 10 miles
> south of Milton Keynes on the soubury exchange)

Might be worth working out where the wires run between his house and the
concentrator. They may be passing a lot closer to the rail line at some
point, or there may be some something else that's providing a conduit
for the interfering signal from the rail line to the vicinity of the
telco lines.

Denis McMahon