warehouse wireless

anybody ever done a 60,000 sq ft warehouse with wireless pc's and
wireless voip phones - not that many people but just a big, huge box.

i am thinking about dividing the place up into 4 and one AP per
quadrant. The AP? cisco 1230AG. whadya think?
--
"Never have so many understood so little about so much."
-- James Burke

Hi,
You could consider using the MIMO access points which use the AirGo
ships like those from sohoWare (www.sohoware.com). i believe they have
used one access point to cover 45000 sq ft of warehouse.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7134132437

Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then you
are not relying on one access point.


"outbackwifi" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> Hi,
> You could consider using the MIMO access points which use the AirGo
> ships like those from sohoWare (www.sohoware.com). i believe they have
> used one access point to cover 45000 sq ft of warehouse.
>

Ed Williams wrote:

> Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then you
> are not relying on one access point.

You make a lot of claims for your product, some are a bit hard to
swallow. Such as: "I have used the Signal Seeker for quite some time now
and I am still amazed of how much more gain it has from other antennas
available on the market." You really have all the other manufacturers
beat in technology but you don't know the gain of yours?

And you advise someone to set up "several" wireless devices inside one
building that have gain equal to 14dbi antennas hooked up to 500mw amps?
Not that I doubt that the signal would reach, even if half your claims
are half true, but still ...

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:58:06 -0600, Gregory W Zill <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>anybody ever done a 60,000 sq ft warehouse with wireless pc's and
>wireless voip phones - not that many people but just a big, huge box.

Yep. Just one. Add a bunch of wireless bar code readers. We didn't
have wireless VoIP at the time.

>i am thinking about dividing the place up into 4 and one AP per
>quadrant. The AP? cisco 1230AG. whadya think?

I used 5 Cisco 340 access points at each side of the warehouse near
the roof (40ft off the ground) and one in the middle of the roof
pointed down. 8dBi patch antennas for about 60 degree beamwidth.
Opposite sides didn't hear each other so I was able to re-use
frequencies. CAT5 between AP's to a cheapo ethernet switch. Big
problems were:
1. Reflections: Steel buildings have LOTS of reflections. Multipath
was a killer and the error rate was high at some locations. The 340's
are 802.11b which is not a resistant to multipath as 802.11g. 1200
series would be a good choice. Someone suggested MIMO (pre-802.11n)
which is probably even better. The reason for the panel antennas was
not to get more gain, coverage, or penetration. It was to reduce
reflections from the walls, domed roof, and concrete floor.
2. Penetration: The warehouse was for produce storage. Everything
was full of water which blocks 2.4GHz. In the isles, most of the
traffic was to the overhead roof mounted radio. I chose to install
the radios on the sides rather than the more obvious corner locations
because I wanted to shoot down the isles. These were not dead center
but offset so that opposite radios would not see each other and there
would be no overlapping coverage down a given isle.
3. The radios could never seem to be high enough. Some forklift
jockey would always put a box of produce directly in front of the
panel antenna.
4. It was really cold. Also laser tag with wireless bar code readers
is lots of fun.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Roger I no that I can take a 14db panel antenna and 500mw amp hooked with in
a few feet of the antenna. The Signal Seeker can see the same networks and
shows equal gain with Network Stumbler. So why go to the extra expense and
hassle.
Ed

"Rôgêr" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:xPedndV6nKFp3Y_fRVn-(E-Mail Removed)...
> Ed Williams wrote:
>
>> Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then
>> you are not relying on one access point.
>
> You make a lot of claims for your product, some are a bit hard to swallow.
> Such as: "I have used the Signal Seeker for quite some time now and I am
> still amazed of how much more gain it has from other antennas available on
> the market." You really have all the other manufacturers beat in
> technology but you don't know the gain of yours?
>
> And you advise someone to set up "several" wireless devices inside one
> building that have gain equal to 14dbi antennas hooked up to 500mw amps?
> Not that I doubt that the signal would reach, even if half your claims are
> half true, but still ...

Ed Williams wrote:

> Roger I no that I can take a 14db panel antenna and 500mw amp hooked with in
> a few feet of the antenna. The Signal Seeker can see the same networks and
> shows equal gain with Network Stumbler. So why go to the extra expense and
> hassle.
> Ed

I'd be more inclined to spend some money if I knew what I was getting.
You don't know the gain of the antenna, you don't mention the make of
the radio, you don't mention the output power, the receive sensitivity.
In short you claim fantastic things but specify nothing. That's why I'd
spend the extra money and go to the hassle of getting something not so
"pig in a poke".

You evidently sell hardware and are pissed. And I have said the total dbs of
gain. It has 26 to 30 dbs of gain. I know you know that the gain is variable
depending on the speed of connection as so with all others. I know in the
next two weeks when the new Signal Seeker comes out you are really gone to
be pissed. It's going to be on two different national TV shows. It's
configurable to be a router, access point, bridge, client. It's going to
save a lot of people there hard earned money.
Have a Great Day Roger

"Rôgêr" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:eu6dnd0om9G3JY_fRVn-(E-Mail Removed)...
> Ed Williams wrote:
>
>> Roger I no that I can take a 14db panel antenna and 500mw amp hooked with
>> in a few feet of the antenna. The Signal Seeker can see the same networks
>> and shows equal gain with Network Stumbler. So why go to the extra
>> expense and hassle.
>> Ed
>
> I'd be more inclined to spend some money if I knew what I was getting. You
> don't know the gain of the antenna, you don't mention the make of the
> radio, you don't mention the output power, the receive sensitivity. In
> short you claim fantastic things but specify nothing. That's why I'd spend
> the extra money and go to the hassle of getting something not so "pig in a
> poke".

Ed Williams wrote:
> You evidently sell hardware and are pissed. And I have said the total dbs of
> gain. It has 26 to 30 dbs of gain. I know you know that the gain is variable
> depending on the speed of connection as so with all others. I know in the
> next two weeks when the new Signal Seeker comes out you are really gone to
> be pissed. It's going to be on two different national TV shows. It's
> configurable to be a router, access point, bridge, client. It's going to
> save a lot of people there hard earned money.
> Have a Great Day Roger

You must be Claire Voyant. But no, I'm not in competition with you in
any manner. And if I was pissed, I'd be sending your contact info to the
FCC so they could help you figure out if you're in compliance with the
laws. But I'm not angry about it, just hate to see someone who may be
well-intentioned but dumb as a sack of hammers when it comes to wireless
gear, selling their snakeoil to the uninformed. You have a great day too.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:06:18 -0500, "Ed Williams" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7134132437
>
>Why spend all the money. Set a few of these up. Set to Ad-hoc mode then you
>are not relying on one access point.

Well, reading the product description, I can sorta deduce that it's a
USB radio with better than typical antenna. Now USB radios usually
plug directly into computahs. Are you suggesting that he buy a few of
these and plug each one into a separate computah? That's kinda
expensive. One could plug all the USB radios into a USB hub and into
a single computah. I've actually tried multiple USB radios on one
machine. It does work, sorta. I won't go into the problems I slammed
into but lets just say it wasn't worth the exercise. Of course,
you're limited to 16ft per USB cable, so the 60,000 sq ft warehouse
(775ft on a side) will require far too many radios located within 16ft
of the computah. If your Signal Seeker product were an ethernet
connected bridge radio, then it might be convinced to work. However,
USB is not a good fit.

Also, I find it interesting that you would recommend an ad-hoc
network. It can be done in a warehouse, but would be difficult to
direct connect to a central server as ALL the radios would need to
communicate with a single ad-hoc bridge radio that is connected to the
central server. Depending on the warehouse layout, that may not be
possible. Of course, one could build a mesh network, which is
basically an ad-hoc network with store and forward repeaters. That
would solve the direct connect problem, but I don't see anything on
your eBay advertisement that suggest your USB radio supports WDS or
any form of repeat mode. Mesh networks are also not mentioned. Were
it an ethernet radio that supports client mode, ad-hoc, and repeat
mode, it might be convinced to work. However, USB is not a good fit.

I also find the following rather interesting:
Q: exactly how much of a DB gain does this give you?
A: We are waiting for the report to come back. But I know it will
keep up with a 14 db panel antenna and a 500 mw amplifier. So I am
guessing around min 26 to 30 db gain to the computer.

I didn't know my computer has gain. Now, antennas have gain which is
usually measured in dBi or dBd, not dB. I know a little about antenna
design and I seriously doubt your antenna has 26-30dB of gain. A
panel antenna with 26dBi antenna gain will be about 5ft across. A
dish antenna will be approximately the same size. Looking at the size
and geometry of your Signal Seeker, my guess(tm) is that it's a
modified USB dongle, with a biquad antenna under the vacuum formed
plastic cover. The biquad is good for perhaps 11-12dBi of gain at
best.

What I find amusing is that you actually may have a good product idea.
It's similar to the various USB-ANT type of radios:
http://www.terabeam.com/downloads/sp...ts/usb-ant.pdf
and is somewhat cheaper. If you offered it with detailed engineering
specifications, test reports, comparisons with similar products, and a
price advantage, it would fit in nicely between insipid USB dongles,
and much more expensive USB-ANT type of radios. It's also small
enough to be considered portable and attached to a laptop. However,
if you insist on selling it with homily, hogwash, and hype, then
methinks you'll get nowhere.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# (E-Mail Removed)
# (E-Mail Removed) AE6KS