WAP54Gs with WPA not handing out IPs from SBS2003 server

Good afternoon -

I've got a client I've set up a wifi network for. It's a domain
network, with SBS2k3 as the DHCP server. We added two Linksys WAP54Gs
(replacing a USR5451 AP/Router and Dell TrueMobile 1184 AP/Router that
were nothing but trouble, and didn't support WPA). It's on a private
range, 192.168.0.x, wired computers all working as they ought to, and
most wireless computers working as they ought to. We're using WPA-PSK
w/ TKIP (an upgrade from the WEP they were using).

Here's the fun part. I've got 4 laptops which aren't able to pull IP
addresses. They find the wireless network, they connect (using the PSK
over WPA), and then they sit trying to obtain IP addys for (seemingly)
days. The traffic counters (either in the WZC util or in the
card-specific utility) show passing traffic - that is to say the
counters increase as time goes on - but an IP is never received.
Specifying a manual IP address leads us to successfully connecting, and
/appearing/ to have a full connection, but not being able to ping
anything except for the single specified IP. Can't ping router, can't
ping the AP's IP, can't ping the server - only the IP we configure
manually.

The machines that were having issues were all Dells, until my laptop
(an HP) took on the same symptoms today. The four computers
experiencing the trouble are -

- Dell Inspiron 6000 w/ a Dell Wireless 1350 WLAN Mini-PCI card (rev
4.5)
- Dell Latitude D620 w/ an Intel Pro Wireless 3945ABG
- Dell Inspiron 600m with an Intel Pro Wilress 2200BG
and an HP Pavilion ze4500 with a Broadcom 802.11b/g card (thats as
specific as the device mgr gets - and I bought it used, so I haven't
looked into it further).

I have also discovered that plugging in a Netgear PCMCIA card will
allow one the computers (the Inspiron 6000) to connect right away, no
questions asked. Pop the same card into the Latitude D620, and I've
got the problem again. The WAPs are each configured as Access Points,
rather than bridges, repeaters, etc. I've taken one of the APs and
made it a seperate SSID as a testbed to find out wtf is going on. I
can reproduce the problem no matter what length key, how often the key
renews, TKIP or AES, SSID, or channel we use.

In bulleted points, here's what we know so far:

- The APs /do/ work - most computers can connect without issue.
- When I drop encryption, either entirely or down to WEP, the computers
that are having issues can connect without fail.
- As soon as we bring up WPA, either with TKIP or AES, the trouble is
reproducable.
- All the computers are using the latest drivers, bios revisions,
firmware, etc.
- The APs are using the latest firmware (3.04)
- When I use a PCMCIA card on the Dell Inspiron 6000, it works fine
- When I use the same PCMCIA card on the Dell Latitude D620, it has the
same problem.
- Linksys Tech-to-Tech Partner support, and the Dell Gold Support
department (and their support people) are all stumped. The Linksys guy
I talked to said he saw the problem once, but bringing it up to the
latest drivers/firmware fixed it. No joy this time.

Anyone seen anything like this? Anyone have any suggestions? We're
boggled over here.

NM

NeoMagick wrote:
> Good afternoon -
<snipped>
> I've got a client I've set up a wifi network for.

> - The APs /do/ work - most computers can connect without issue.
> - When I drop encryption, either entirely or down to WEP, the
> computers that are having issues can connect without fail.
> - As soon as we bring up WPA, either with TKIP or AES, the trouble is
> reproducable.

> - When I use a PCMCIA card on the Dell Inspiron 6000, it works fine
> - When I use the same PCMCIA card on the Dell Latitude D620, it has
> the same problem.

>
> Anyone seen anything like this? Anyone have any suggestions? We're
> boggled over here.
>
> NM

From a quick glance at your post, everything works fine EXCEPT the dells,
right? And ONLY on the dells when you increase secutity (add TKIP or AES)..

All your symptoms say it is absolutely not anything else (cuz other
computers work fine), just have the problem ONLY with the dells..
Concentrate on the dells.. Look at firewall stuff and the dell drivers.. Can
you temp/add a usb device to the dells? If so, and that works, it's
something specific in the dell wireless implementation... Hard to debug over
the net, but I would narrow it down (only on the dells), and see what
happens if you use a totally different device (like a USB dongle)... Point
being, the AP's work for other stuff but not the dells.. sort of silly to be
asking the AP makers tech support, why not ask dell?

Did ask Dell (gold support) - they were stumped.

Other Dells work fine. Older Dells work fine. Newer Dells work fine.
It's just these three particular Dell's and my HP laptop not working.

Only firewall is the inbuilt Windows firewall. Same symptoms with it
either on or off. Also works fine when going hard wired, and/or with
no encryption.

I started with Linksys because it's varying WiFi card mfgrs (intel,
broadcom, and dell, which is (i believe) a rebranded broadcom), rather
than just (i.e.) "all my intel cards" or "all my dell cards", etc. But
both Linksys and Dell are without clue.

NeoMagick wrote:
> Did ask Dell (gold support) - they were stumped.
>
> Other Dells work fine. Older Dells work fine. Newer Dells work fine.
> It's just these three particular Dell's and my HP laptop not working.
>
> Only firewall is the inbuilt Windows firewall. Same symptoms with it
> either on or off. Also works fine when going hard wired, and/or with
> no encryption.
>
> I started with Linksys because it's varying WiFi card mfgrs (intel,
> broadcom, and dell, which is (i believe) a rebranded broadcom), rather
> than just (i.e.) "all my intel cards" or "all my dell cards", etc.
> But both Linksys and Dell are without clue.

Next step I'd try an USB WiFi connection.. If it works, you know it is only
the built in WiFi on those certain models of dells...

Just for fun (and free), can you boot in safe mode and have it work? That
would narrow it down to hardware or software....

Tried booting to safe mode. The Inspiron 6000 won't start the network
connections svc, and the dell wireless software doesn't find a network
card. My HP does the same thing. I'll need to read about how to bring
a WLAN up in safe mode, if it's possible (tho I imagine it would be).

Being the muppet I am, I'm taking one of the APs home to fuss with over
the weekend. Three day holiday my arse...

NeoMagick wrote:
> Tried booting to safe mode. The Inspiron 6000 won't start the network
> connections svc, and the dell wireless software doesn't find a network
> card. My HP does the same thing. I'll need to read about how to
> bring a WLAN up in safe mode, if it's possible (tho I imagine it
> would be).
>
> Being the muppet I am, I'm taking one of the APs home to fuss with
> over the weekend. Three day holiday my arse...

Don't get to take the dell notebook with you and try it on other AP's?
Too bad.. Got three here in Vegas... (i'm in Vegas on vacation, have 3
laptops and 3 AP's, but not my notes/toys like back at home/work)

Seriously though, I've only had a few that can boot/use the network in safe
mode, but what the heck, was worth free and worth a shot... And it appears
you may have found an interesting tidbit of info...

You did say something that's stuck in my mind but I can't think exactly why
at the moment..., But, Basically it had to do with one machine didn't start
network services at all, and the other couldn't find a wireless card (but
the fact it started the service, and then couldn't find a card - makes me
think that the internal dell/windows stuff is starting no matter what, and
then wigging out cuz a driver or something it needs isn't starting cuz of
the safe boot).

Got a USB dongle hanging around? You may want to give that a try, cuz even
in safe mode it should look for USB devices.. Or even easier, does it have a
switch for internal wlan stuff? You can just turn te internal off and let it
use the dongle (so the built in and dongle don't conflict)

On 26 May 2006 14:50:06 -0700, "NeoMagick" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>I've got 4 laptops which aren't able to pull IP
>addresses. They find the wireless network, they connect (using the PSK
>over WPA), and then they sit trying to obtain IP addys for (seemingly)
>days.

I'll assume you're running Windoze XP Home using Wireless Zero Config
and the latest WAP54G v3 hardware.

XP wireless is stupid. There's little connection progress indication.
Waiting forever for a DHCP delivered IP address is usually either an
encryption key exchange failure, or for WPA-PSK, an authentication
failure. I can also be the inability of the WAP54G to pass broadcasts
from the SBS2003 DHCP server. The large variety of laptops that don't
work points to problem with the WAP54G.

Dumb questions:
- Are you using WPA-PSK or WPA2-PSK?
- Are there any MAC or IP filters running in the WAP54G?
- SBS2003 Standard or Premium edition?
- Do you have enough IP addresses in the DHCP pool on the DHCP server?
- Is the SBS2003 DHCP server pre-filtering the clients by MAC address?
- Do you have some other form of security enabled on the SBS2003
server?
- Do you have the SBS2003 server setup with NAT using one or two
ethernet cards?

I vaguely recall that the WAP54 logviewer reports authentication
failures. I'm not sure. Go to the log page:
| http://www.linksysdata.com/ui/WAP54G/v3/3.01/Setup.htm
Enable logging. Either point it to a machine running the crude
Linksys logviewer or hit "view log" button.

Windoze XP has a WZC debugging log feature that will bury you in
diagnostics.
| http://www.microsoft.com/technet/pro.../wlansupp.mspx
| http://www.microsoft.com/technet/pro.../wifitrbl.mspx
I'm fairly sure you'll find some kind of authentication failure in
there.

>The machines that were having issues were all Dells, until my laptop
>(an HP) took on the same symptoms today.

Reading between your lines, you mention that your HP laptop apparently
worked before, but now doesn't. That sounds like running out of IP's
in the DHCP pool. (Hint: If you mention that something changes,
kindly disclose what it changed from).

>I have also discovered that plugging in a Netgear PCMCIA card will
>allow one the computers (the Inspiron 6000) to connect right away, no
>questions asked. Pop the same card into the Latitude D620, and I've
>got the problem again.

So much for the DHCP IP pool theory. Moving a MAC address (on a card)
from one machine to another should also move the IP addresses as the
ARP table is unchanged. Weird(tm).

>The WAPs are each configured as Access Points,
>rather than bridges, repeaters, etc. I've taken one of the APs and
>made it a seperate SSID as a testbed to find out wtf is going on. I
>can reproduce the problem no matter what length key, how often the key
>renews, TKIP or AES, SSID, or channel we use.

Can you find another DHCP server other than the SBS2003 server?

>- The APs /do/ work - most computers can connect without issue.

How many computers? Over 253 machines? If exactly 30 functional
machines per WAP54G, I think I have a good guess (but no fix).

>- When I drop encryption, either entirely or down to WEP, the computers
>that are having issues can connect without fail.

OK, so it's encryption compatibility. I'm currently having problems
getting WPA2-PSK to play with an eclectic mix of hardware. When I
went down to WPA-PSK, everything was fine. Weird(tm). Since DHCP
works with no encryption, it's a fair bet that it's not a DHCP issue.

>- As soon as we bring up WPA, either with TKIP or AES, the trouble is
>reproducable.

WPA or WPA2?

>- All the computers are using the latest drivers, bios revisions,
>firmware, etc.
>- The APs are using the latest firmware (3.04)

OK. 3.04 is the latest for WAP54G v3 hardware.
Did you try a hard reset after upgrading the WAP54G firmware?

>- When I use a PCMCIA card on the Dell Inspiron 6000, it works fine
>- When I use the same PCMCIA card on the Dell Latitude D620, it has the
>same problem.

Yeah, but are you using Windoze Wireless Zero Config to do the
wireless connection or are you using whatever came with your PCMCIA
card? Uncheck "Let Windoze manage this device" to let the
manufacturers driver take control.

>- Linksys Tech-to-Tech Partner support, and the Dell Gold Support
>department (and their support people) are all stumped. The Linksys guy
>I talked to said he saw the problem once, but bringing it up to the
>latest drivers/firmware fixed it. No joy this time.
>
>Anyone seen anything like this? Anyone have any suggestions? We're
>boggled over here.

I've seem similar problems, but not quite a weird as this.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

NeoMagick wrote:

>
> In bulleted points, here's what we know so far:
>
> - The APs /do/ work - most computers can connect without issue.
> - When I drop encryption, either entirely or down to WEP, the
> computers that are having issues can connect without fail.
> - As soon as we bring up WPA, either with TKIP or AES, the trouble is
> reproducable.

From another post/thread, this was what I recalled.... Some dell mini pci
cards ONLY do wep... Sure sounds like your problem....

> 802.11b/g, I think. A Dell router and on the laptop using a Dell
> Wireless 1370 WLAN Mini-PCI Card. I know this setup only has WEP
> encryption.


================================================== =======

Some dell mini pci cards ONLY do wep... Sure sounds like your problem from
what you wrote above....
- When I drop encryption, either entirely or down to WEP, the
> computers that are having issues can connect without fail.


================================================== =======
You never mentioned the model number of the dell wireless cards that don't
work with WPA.... Could it be one that doesn't support it?

Thanks for the responses everyone. Here's the answer to some
questions:

- Are you using WPA-PSK or WPA2-PSK?

WPA-PSK atm. WPA2-PSK gave us the same grief.

- Are there any MAC or IP filters running in the WAP54G?

None whatsoever.

- SBS2003 Standard or Premium edition?

SBS2k3 Std.

- Do you have enough IP addresses in the DHCP pool on the DHCP server?

Yes. There's not even 50 machines total on the network.

- Is the SBS2003 DHCP server pre-filtering the clients by MAC address?

No. The 2k3 DHCP server will hand an IP out to any machine that
connects to the network, on the domain or not, by WiFi or wire.

- Do you have some other form of security enabled on the SBS2003
server?

No.

- Do you have the SBS2003 server setup with NAT using one or two
ethernet cards?

No. NAT is running on a hardware firewall appliance. The SBS2k3
server is on a static IP on the private network behind the NAT router,
and has only one active ethernet line.

- I'll assume you're running Windoze XP Home using Wireless Zero Config
and the latest WAP54G v3 hardware.

All the machines are XP Pro, except for one employee's personal laptop
under XP Home (which successfully connects), and an older company
laptop that's running 2k Pro, which also successfully connects. Some
are set up using WZC, others using the mfgr's software (Intel and Dell
Wireless software). On machines that can't connect, both pieces of
software produce the same results (my first thought as well). Only
difference is the Intel and Dell software each report (and I quote)
"Encryption: TKIP; Key Absent" - DESPITE having entered the key
repeatedly, and the WZC showing a successful connection, passing
traffic, but no IP address.

- Yeah, but are you using Windoze Wireless Zero Config to do the
wireless connection or are you using whatever came with your PCMCIA
card? Uncheck "Let Windoze manage this device" to let the
manufacturers driver take control.

With the PCMCIA card, it's the WZC software. The Netgear app that the
driver package installed for it SUCKS. I'll post screenshots of
exactly how useless it is if you're interested.

- Can you find another DHCP server other than the SBS2003 server?

Can i find, as in is there a rogue DHCP server on the network? No,
there isn't. 2k3 SBS will shut down its internal DHCP server if it
finds another on the network. DHCP services have not dropped, and no
other devices were put on the network that would be a DHCP server (the
AP's are WAPs only), and there's no routers, only switches.
Can i find, as in can I set one up? It's a good thought. I'll take a
second router with me, and set up a private network with one of the
APs, as I'd rather not do anything to fsck with the SBS.

- OK. 3.04 is the latest for WAP54G v3 hardware. Did you try a hard
reset after upgrading the WAP54G firmware?

That's a good question - whats a hard reset defined as on these things?
With my BEFSR11, a hard reset was unplugging, holding down the reset
switch for 5 seconds, and plugging it back in, which would wipe out the
settings. With a WRT54G (v5) i discovered a hard reset was holding
down the reset switch for 30 seconds, and needed to be done after
upgrading the firmware (something I discovered only after an hours
worth of beating my head against a desk because the little cisco logo
kept lighting white, and it would ask for a firmware file when I opened
the admin page).
After I upgraded the firmware, I unplugged the device for 30 seconds,
and plugged it back in. Must confess, I didn't follow the mfgr's specs
for firmware upgrades. Are they different? I'll look into that today.


- You did say something that's stuck in my mind but I can't think
exactly why
at the moment..., But, Basically it had to do with one machine didn't
start
network services at all, and the other couldn't find a wireless card
(but
the fact it started the service, and then couldn't find a card - makes
me
think that the internal dell/windows stuff is starting no matter what,
and
then wigging out cuz a driver or something it needs isn't starting cuz
of
the safe boot). Got a USB dongle hanging around? You may want to give
that a try, cuz even
in safe mode it should look for USB devices.. Or even easier, does it
have a
switch for internal wlan stuff? You can just turn te internal off and
let it
use the dongle (so the built in and dongle don't conflict)

No, no USB wifi cards around. Only that PCMCIA card. Even in safe
mode tho, I think i'd have the problem I had. The 'network service'
didn't start, and wouldn't start. It wouldn't give me any network
devices in the network connections control panel (wired or wireless),
and the mfgr's wireless software would report 'no wireless card found'.


- You never mentioned the model number of the dell wireless cards that
don't work with WPA.... Could it be one that doesn't support it?

I've got them jotted down on notes onsite - I'll be able to pull them
up in a couple of hours. It's not just dell wireless tho, it's also
intel internal wireless. All the cards are listed as supporting WPA,
and I believe they do (my experience is that cards that don't support
WPA see the network, and when you try to join it says its out of range
- these aren't doing that). Dell sent out a replacement internal
Mini-PCI card that I installed, and am having the same trouble with.
I'll get model numbers out today.

Hope this helps - really appreciate any insight! Thanks,

NM

Thanks for the responses everyone. Here's the answer to some
questions:

- Are you using WPA-PSK or WPA2-PSK?

WPA-PSK atm. WPA2-PSK gave us the same grief.

- Are there any MAC or IP filters running in the WAP54G?

None whatsoever.

- SBS2003 Standard or Premium edition?

SBS2k3 Std.

- Do you have enough IP addresses in the DHCP pool on the DHCP server?

Yes. There's not even 50 machines total on the network.

- Is the SBS2003 DHCP server pre-filtering the clients by MAC address?

No. The 2k3 DHCP server will hand an IP out to any machine that
connects to the network, on the domain or not, by WiFi or wire.

- Do you have some other form of security enabled on the SBS2003
server?

No.

- Do you have the SBS2003 server setup with NAT using one or two
ethernet cards?

No. NAT is running on a hardware firewall appliance. The SBS2k3
server is on a static IP on the private network behind the NAT router,
and has only one active ethernet line.

- I'll assume you're running Windoze XP Home using Wireless Zero Config
and the latest WAP54G v3 hardware.

All the machines are XP Pro, except for one employee's personal laptop
under XP Home (which successfully connects), and an older company
laptop that's running 2k Pro, which also successfully connects. Some
are set up using WZC, others using the mfgr's software (Intel and Dell
Wireless software). On machines that can't connect, both pieces of
software produce the same results (my first thought as well). Only
difference is the Intel and Dell software each report (and I quote)
"Encryption: TKIP; Key Absent" - DESPITE having entered the key
repeatedly, and the WZC showing a successful connection, passing
traffic, but no IP address.

- Yeah, but are you using Windoze Wireless Zero Config to do the
wireless connection or are you using whatever came with your PCMCIA
card? Uncheck "Let Windoze manage this device" to let the
manufacturers driver take control.

With the PCMCIA card, it's the WZC software. The Netgear app that the
driver package installed for it SUCKS. I'll post screenshots of
exactly how useless it is if you're interested.

- Can you find another DHCP server other than the SBS2003 server?

Can i find, as in is there a rogue DHCP server on the network? No,
there isn't. 2k3 SBS will shut down its internal DHCP server if it
finds another on the network. DHCP services have not dropped, and no
other devices were put on the network that would be a DHCP server (the
AP's are WAPs only), and there's no routers, only switches.
Can i find, as in can I set one up? It's a good thought. I'll take a
second router with me, and set up a private network with one of the
APs, as I'd rather not do anything to fsck with the SBS.

- OK. 3.04 is the latest for WAP54G v3 hardware. Did you try a hard
reset after upgrading the WAP54G firmware?

That's a good question - whats a hard reset defined as on these things?
With my BEFSR11, a hard reset was unplugging, holding down the reset
switch for 5 seconds, and plugging it back in, which would wipe out the
settings. With a WRT54G (v5) i discovered a hard reset was holding
down the reset switch for 30 seconds, and needed to be done after
upgrading the firmware (something I discovered only after an hours
worth of beating my head against a desk because the little cisco logo
kept lighting white, and it would ask for a firmware file when I opened
the admin page).
After I upgraded the firmware, I unplugged the device for 30 seconds,
and plugged it back in. Must confess, I didn't follow the mfgr's specs
for firmware upgrades. Are they different? I'll look into that today.


- You did say something that's stuck in my mind but I can't think
exactly why
at the moment..., But, Basically it had to do with one machine didn't
start
network services at all, and the other couldn't find a wireless card
(but
the fact it started the service, and then couldn't find a card - makes
me
think that the internal dell/windows stuff is starting no matter what,
and
then wigging out cuz a driver or something it needs isn't starting cuz
of
the safe boot). Got a USB dongle hanging around? You may want to give
that a try, cuz even
in safe mode it should look for USB devices.. Or even easier, does it
have a
switch for internal wlan stuff? You can just turn te internal off and
let it
use the dongle (so the built in and dongle don't conflict)

No, no USB wifi cards around. Only that PCMCIA card. Even in safe
mode tho, I think i'd have the problem I had. The 'network service'
didn't start, and wouldn't start. It wouldn't give me any network
devices in the network connections control panel (wired or wireless),
and the mfgr's wireless software would report 'no wireless card found'.


- You never mentioned the model number of the dell wireless cards that
don't work with WPA.... Could it be one that doesn't support it?

I've got them jotted down on notes onsite - I'll be able to pull them
up in a couple of hours. It's not just dell wireless tho, it's also
intel internal wireless. All the cards are listed as supporting WPA,
and I believe they do (my experience is that cards that don't support
WPA see the network, and when you try to join it says its out of range
- these aren't doing that). Dell sent out a replacement internal
Mini-PCI card that I installed, and am having the same trouble with.
I'll get model numbers out today.

Hope this helps - really appreciate any insight! Thanks,

NM