Virgin.Net Broadband?!? Heavy Downloaders should think twice ....

Almost forced to leave Virgin.Net.
Please read below and let me know your opinions:

Below I report a copy of an email I received 2 weeks ago from
Virgin.Net.
Yesterday I received the same threat on a paper copy. The letter
actually was a bit more lengthy and explicitily threatening about the
ridiculous 5GB/Week up/download limit:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Important Announcement regarding your Virgin.net Broadband account -
Please Read

Dear customer,

You may be aware that some Virgin.net Broadband customers are
currently experiencing a deterioration in service performance.

The most significant reason for this is excessive bandwidth usage,
where a minority of customers are constantly uploading and / or
downloading really large files and thus clogging up the network.

So if you are a heavy user of Virgin.net Broadband, it would really
help if you could take it a bit easy. We are requesting that everyone
reduces their levels of uploading / or downloading activity to 1
gigabyte a day up to a maximum of 5 gigabytes per week. This will
enable us to get the system back up to speed and allow everyone to
enjoy the service in full.

Otherwise, we may have to take drastic action and restrict usage. We
would encourage you to visit the Virgin.net website for our Terms and
Conditions regarding broadband usage with particular reference to
Clauses F.16 and P.2 whereby Virgin.net reserves the right to
temporarily suspend or to terminate accounts. This would obviously be
a last resort for us and we hope that we do not have to take such
action.

If you have any questions on your broadband usage please see our FAQs
or feel free to email us at (E-Mail Removed)

Thank you,

Virgin.net"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?

Let's say that I am using a software like Kazaa or WinMX or Emule or
eDonkey to download Movies,Software,Music. MAYBE I bought the
broadband EXACTLY for this purpose. What do you think?

With this peer-to-peer I reach easily 10K/s upload and 45k/s Download.
Downloading multiple files at the same time allows me to keep this
speed almost constantly. With a bit of arithmetics I obtain (10K +
45K) * 86,400 (seconds in a day of 24 hrs) = 4.75 GB.

This means that in 24 hours I download/upload almost as much as
(ACCORDINGLY TO THESE FUNNY GUYS FROM VIRGIN.NET) I am supposedely
allowed to download/upload in ONE WEEK!

This means that I will soon be forced to leave Virgin.Net (they
explicitily say they will interrupt my account) because I am not using
it at 1/6th of it's full potential!!!

Maybe these little idiots think that someone buys the broadband only
to check his/her email twice a day and download a cople of ring-tones
and wallpapers every week. I am speechless.

Heavy Downloaders: Beware and go elsewhere.


Micael

On 15 Dec 2003 07:27:06 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) (Micael Doyle) wrote:

> My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
> BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
> BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?

No, you bought whatever the ISP offered you under their AUPs.

Either live with it or else change to an ISP which makes you a better
offer.

Tony

"Micael Doyle" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
> BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
> BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?

Actually, you brought a 50:1 contended product not a leased line..

Regards
Sunil

"Micael Doyle" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...

<snip>

> Let's say that I am using a software like Kazaa or WinMX or Emule or
> eDonkey to download Movies,Software,Music.

Ever heard of the saying "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw
stones"?

On 15 Dec 2003, (E-Mail Removed) (Micael Doyle) wrote:

>My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
>BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
>BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?

Yes, with 50:1 contention, which means that to "be fair" you should
average 1/50th of the possible data you might expect to transfer on
512k/256k running 24h a day. If you exceed that 50th then I've no
sympathy for your complaint. If you are prevented from getting
data to reach 1/50th then I'd back you all the way.

Now, what do you think you'd be paying for 1:1 512k/256k ?
50 x 24.99 a month ? No, didn't think you'd like that option!


alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp is an interesting newsgroup to have
posted to - do you think they'd let you run 24x7 at full pelt ?

Go check their AUP/notes and you'd see your type of use would not
match up without paying a higher fee than you are currently paying.
Good job Virgin only has one month notice needed, and no connection
fee. I trust you'll be checking the T+C for any future ISPs you're
considering so you don't find yourself on the wrong side of their
expectations of you as a customer. Peter M.

On 15 Dec 2003 07:27:06 -0800, Micael Doyle wrote:

> Almost forced to leave Virgin.Net.
> Please read below and let me know your opinions:
>
> Below I report a copy of an email I received 2 weeks ago from
> Virgin.Net.
> Yesterday I received the same threat on a paper copy. The letter
> actually was a bit more lengthy and explicitily threatening about the
> ridiculous 5GB/Week up/download limit:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Important Announcement regarding your Virgin.net Broadband account -
> Please Read
>
> Dear customer,
>
> You may be aware that some Virgin.net Broadband customers are
> currently experiencing a deterioration in service performance.
>
> The most significant reason for this is excessive bandwidth usage,
> where a minority of customers are constantly uploading and / or
> downloading really large files and thus clogging up the network.
>
> So if you are a heavy user of Virgin.net Broadband, it would really
> help if you could take it a bit easy. We are requesting that everyone
> reduces their levels of uploading / or downloading activity to 1
> gigabyte a day up to a maximum of 5 gigabytes per week. This will
> enable us to get the system back up to speed and allow everyone to
> enjoy the service in full.
>
> Otherwise, we may have to take drastic action and restrict usage. We
> would encourage you to visit the Virgin.net website for our Terms and
> Conditions regarding broadband usage with particular reference to
> Clauses F.16 and P.2 whereby Virgin.net reserves the right to
> temporarily suspend or to terminate accounts. This would obviously be
> a last resort for us and we hope that we do not have to take such
> action.
>
> If you have any questions on your broadband usage please see our FAQs
> or feel free to email us at (E-Mail Removed)
>
> Thank you,
>
> Virgin.net"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My account is a standard 512Kb Download account. THIS MEANS THAT I
> BOUGHT A 512Kb Download account for a 24/7 service. THIS IS WHAT I
> BOUGHT! DIDN'T I?
>

No, it doesn't mean that at all. It means you bought a 512Kb connections
that's 'on' 24/7 - it doesn't mean you can download at that speed 24/7. I
suggest you read the terms of your AUP and contract again.

> Let's say that I am using a software like Kazaa or WinMX or Emule or
> eDonkey to download Movies,Software,Music. MAYBE I bought the
> broadband EXACTLY for this purpose. What do you think?

Maybe you did get it for that but I guess you didn't read *all* the terms
of your contract or AUP.
>
> With this peer-to-peer I reach easily 10K/s upload and 45k/s Download.
> Downloading multiple files at the same time allows me to keep this
> speed almost constantly. With a bit of arithmetics I obtain (10K +
> 45K) * 86,400 (seconds in a day of 24 hrs) = 4.75 GB.
>
> This means that in 24 hours I download/upload almost as much as
> (ACCORDINGLY TO THESE FUNNY GUYS FROM VIRGIN.NET) I am supposedely
> allowed to download/upload in ONE WEEK!

Yes but as Virgin pointed out in their letter 'heavy users' downloading at
full speed 24/7 are impacting other users in the network.
>
> This means that I will soon be forced to leave Virgin.Net (they
> explicitily say they will interrupt my account) because I am not using
> it at 1/6th of it's full potential!!!

You're not being 'forced' to leave Virgin, you've been asked to reduce your
greedy downloads. If you leave it will be your choice, abide by the AUP or
leave. ;-)

>
> Maybe these little idiots think that someone buys the broadband only
> to check his/her email twice a day and download a cople of ring-tones
> and wallpapers every week.

There's more to using the internet than checking mail or downloading p2p.

> I am speechless.

Unfortunately you're not judging by this missive.

> Heavy Downloaders: Beware and go elsewhere.
>
Again, that would be your choice.

Regards

Bill

Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631 wrote:
>...
> alt.internet.providers.uk.aaisp is an interesting newsgroup to have
> posted to - do you think they'd let you run 24x7 at full pelt ?

Indeed, interesting. We do offer an "all you can eat" tariff, Office 500
High, which is currently 70+VAT per month (thats 82.25). The reason it
is this price is simple - bandwidth costs money. If you went to a well
connected data centre and tried to buy 500Kb/s bandwidth you would
easily be paying 50+VAT/month if not more even if no circuit cost at all
involved.

> Go check their AUP/notes and you'd see your type of use would not
> match up without paying a higher fee than you are currently paying.
> Good job Virgin only has one month notice needed, and no connection
> fee. I trust you'll be checking the T+C for any future ISPs you're
> considering so you don't find yourself on the wrong side of their
> expectations of you as a customer. Peter M.

Always well worth checking. I hope that we manage to make it very clear
what exactly people are buying when they look at our service, and I know
some ISPs could be clearer.

--
_ Rev. Adrian Kennard, Andrews & Arnold Ltd / AAISP
(_) _| _ . _ _ 4Mb/s ADSL, fixed IP, no min term http://adsl.ms/
( )(_|( |(_|| ) SpliceCom VoIP based PABXs http://aa.gg/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bond two ADSL lines? http://www.FireBrick.info/

On 15 Dec 2003 16:15, A Kennard <`@o.gg> wrote:

>Indeed, interesting. We do offer an "all you can eat" tariff, Office 500
>High, which is currently 70+VAT per month (thats 82.25). The reason it
>is this price is simple - bandwidth costs money.

Yes, I looked at that recently for someone, but didn't have the cost in
my head when I posted. Just found it funny to have been cross-posted
to a place where it would get an honest rather than "they're rotters
at Virgin.net for doing this" response :-)

>I hope that we manage to make it very clear what exactly people are
>buying when they look at our service,

No doubts or worries on that score Adrian - I've usually found your
pages comprehensive and on contention and why 24x7 at 512k isn't an
option (unless paid for) you were perfectly clear !! Peter M.

Hello,

I agree with the sentiment expressed by the previous poster. Fair usage at
full bandwidth equivalent might be 8 - 10 to 16-20 hours a day of an on
average between 3 - 5 day week (i.e. an on average high-end expectation of
10 gigabytes a week - naturally with a fair assumption that that would be a
heavy week where a good proportion of other weeks can be expected to be
significantly lighter [i.e. around 50% of that level]).

However, as for those arguing the complete opposite end of the scale from
the OP (i.e. 1/50th equivalent - i.e. 9600 baud equivalent for 24/7 full
bandwidth ADSL, a dial-up connection would clearly be both more economic and
outperform) I suggest the following point.

To this end, my query relates to the intended eventual use of ADSL lines for
delivery of broadcast and on-demand video / tv. I would like to see any
prime time viewing experience if when 90% of a neighbourhood have their ADSL
serviced TV on, demanding some MPEGAV stream at 9600 baud!

That usage scenario shows that the contention ratios are intended as
provisos / limit guidelines rather than actually expected use performance.

I would appreciate some thought / input / feedback on your views about this
type of usage scenario (i.e. high-bandwidth on demand video applications at
peak times). Naturally, I imagine that by the time such a service /
technology became mainstream the entry-level ADSL bandwidth (or its
equivalent) would have reached a good 10/20 to 100/200 mbs (such that having
one on-demand video streaming request / requirement serviced would not
represent any more than a minimal background bandwidth usage).

Best wishes,



News Reader

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"Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9631" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) .net...
> On 15 Dec 2003 16:15, A Kennard <`@o.gg> wrote:
>
> >Indeed, interesting. We do offer an "all you can eat" tariff, Office 500
> >High, which is currently 70+VAT per month (thats 82.25). The reason it
> >is this price is simple - bandwidth costs money.
>
> Yes, I looked at that recently for someone, but didn't have the cost in
> my head when I posted. Just found it funny to have been cross-posted
> to a place where it would get an honest rather than "they're rotters
> at Virgin.net for doing this" response :-)
>
> >I hope that we manage to make it very clear what exactly people are
> >buying when they look at our service,
>
> No doubts or worries on that score Adrian - I've usually found your
> pages comprehensive and on contention and why 24x7 at 512k isn't an
> option (unless paid for) you were perfectly clear !! Peter M.

News Reader wrote:
>...
> I would appreciate some thought / input / feedback on your views about this
> type of usage scenario (i.e. high-bandwidth on demand video applications at
> peak times). Naturally, I imagine that by the time such a service /
> technology became mainstream the entry-level ADSL bandwidth (or its
> equivalent) would have reached a good 10/20 to 100/200 mbs (such that having
> one on-demand video streaming request / requirement serviced would not
> represent any more than a minimal background bandwidth usage).

There is a VideoStream service aimed at video on demand, and it works on
(I believe) 3 to 1 contention for a circuit at 2.3Mb/s. Basically,
internet usage is changing, and theh infrastucture is based on one level
whilst some users expectations are based on a different model. I am
sure, over time, things will change, but also bandwidths available will
also change. You should try sitting on the data centre floor and trying
to work out what you can usefully do with a gigabit internet feed to
your laptop.

--
_ Rev. Adrian Kennard, Andrews & Arnold Ltd / AAISP
(_) _| _ . _ _ 4Mb/s ADSL, fixed IP, no min term http://adsl.ms/
( )(_|( |(_|| ) SpliceCom VoIP based PABXs http://aa.gg/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bond two ADSL lines? http://www.FireBrick.info/