Very weird DHCP issue, advice needed please?

Hi All,

Last Monday I received a new Acer 1353XC as an insurance replacement
for my trusty Compaq 1260 (that got dopped).

I finished the XP Home install on the Acer and tried to use it on my
network with no luck.

I plugged in a Cardbus 10/100 Ethernet card and that connected to my
network (and internet) straight away. I had the same sucess with a
Netgear WiFi card and a D-Link USB / Ethernet converter. I sawped
cables / ports and locked the built in VIA Rhine II port in the Acer
to 10M etc but no improvement. The 'Status' screen on XP networking
showed no RX data on the Ethernet port so I assumed it was dead.

It was returned to Acer and promply 'repaired / tested' and returned
to me yesterday. I plugged it onto my LAN but it was still dead (no
DHCP but all the lights were on etc).

My next door tekky mate (our networks are connected) enabled the DHCP
server on his Smoothwall and away the Acer went (DHCP etc) so it's not
actually a hard 'fault' as such?

Now, I must of had 50 different network devices / machines on my
Di-704 Router as DHCP clients over the years and they all have worked
ok?

Acer can't help much further so I might be looking for another similar
priced laptop as an alternative ;-(

Anyone out there got any ideas on how I could 'prove' which end isn't
following the relevent std re the DHCP handshake etc please? (I did
download a network 'sniffer' but it would probably need to be an
external device on the same segment to get real results?)

All the best ..

T i m

T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>. ..
> Hi All,
>
> Last Monday I received a new Acer 1353XC as an insurance replacement
> for my trusty Compaq 1260 (that got dopped).
>
> I finished the XP Home install on the Acer and tried to use it on my
> network with no luck.
>
> I plugged in a Cardbus 10/100 Ethernet card and that connected to my
> network (and internet) straight away. I had the same sucess with a
> Netgear WiFi card and a D-Link USB / Ethernet converter. I sawped
> cables / ports and locked the built in VIA Rhine II port in the Acer
> to 10M etc but no improvement. The 'Status' screen on XP networking
> showed no RX data on the Ethernet port so I assumed it was dead.
>
> It was returned to Acer and promply 'repaired / tested' and returned
> to me yesterday. I plugged it onto my LAN but it was still dead (no
> DHCP but all the lights were on etc).
>
> My next door tekky mate (our networks are connected) enabled the DHCP
> server on his Smoothwall and away the Acer went (DHCP etc) so it's not
> actually a hard 'fault' as such?
>
> Now, I must of had 50 different network devices / machines on my
> Di-704 Router as DHCP clients over the years and they all have worked
> ok?
>
> Acer can't help much further so I might be looking for another similar
> priced laptop as an alternative ;-(
>
> Anyone out there got any ideas on how I could 'prove' which end isn't
> following the relevent std re the DHCP handshake etc please? (I did
> download a network 'sniffer' but it would probably need to be an
> external device on the same segment to get real results?)
>
> All the best ..
>
> T i m

I think you are going to need the sniffer trace to prove what is
happening. The sniffer s/w should run on the Acer PC itself. If you
run the sniffer s/w and then do an "ipconfig /renew" (possibly
preceded by an "ipconfig /release") from a command prompt, it should
restart the DHCP handshake.

Pete

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:09:41 +0100, T i m wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Last Monday I received a new Acer 1353XC as an insurance replacement
> for my trusty Compaq 1260 (that got dopped).
>
> I finished the XP Home install on the Acer and tried to use it on my
> network with no luck.
>
> I plugged in a Cardbus 10/100 Ethernet card and that connected to my
> network (and internet) straight away. I had the same sucess with a
> Netgear WiFi card and a D-Link USB / Ethernet converter. I sawped
> cables / ports and locked the built in VIA Rhine II port in the Acer
> to 10M etc but no improvement. The 'Status' screen on XP networking
> showed no RX data on the Ethernet port so I assumed it was dead.
>
> It was returned to Acer and promply 'repaired / tested' and returned
> to me yesterday. I plugged it onto my LAN but it was still dead (no
> DHCP but all the lights were on etc).
>
> My next door tekky mate (our networks are connected) enabled the DHCP
> server on his Smoothwall and away the Acer went (DHCP etc) so it's not
> actually a hard 'fault' as such?
>
> Now, I must of had 50 different network devices / machines on my
> Di-704 Router as DHCP clients over the years and they all have worked
> ok?
>
> Acer can't help much further so I might be looking for another similar
> priced laptop as an alternative ;-(
>
> Anyone out there got any ideas on how I could 'prove' which end isn't
> following the relevent std re the DHCP handshake etc please? (I did
> download a network 'sniffer' but it would probably need to be an
> external device on the same segment to get real results?)
>
> All the best ..
>
> T i m

A few things that could be tried spring to mind here.
You seem to have a fairly large network, are there enough spare IP
addresses available to your DHCP server.
Make sure that DHCP address range don't overlap into your static address
ramge.
Make sure that you only have one DHCP server. If your mate has a DHCP
server on his network, is this trying to allocate addresses on your
network?
Try allocating a static address to your new laptop, does it work now?

It is Windows XP that implements the DHCP standard and not the hardware,
so if it works OK on one network device it should be OK on all devices.

Hope this helps, Graham

On 15 Apr 2004 00:53:29 -0700, (E-Mail Removed) (Pete
Mainwaring) wrote:


>>
>> Anyone out there got any ideas on how I could 'prove' which end isn't
>> following the relevent std re the DHCP handshake etc please? (I did
>> download a network 'sniffer' but it would probably need to be an
>> external device on the same segment to get real results?)
>>
>> All the best ..
>>
>> T i m
>
>I think you are going to need the sniffer trace to prove what is
>happening. The sniffer s/w should run on the Acer PC itself. If you
>run the sniffer s/w and then do an "ipconfig /renew" (possibly
>preceded by an "ipconfig /release") from a command prompt, it should
>restart the DHCP handshake.

Hi Pete and thanks very much for the reply.

I'm sort of waiting on the Co that acted as a 'supplier' for the
Insurance Co to come back to me with a suggestion for a replacement
(brand) for the Acer, but in the mean time I would like to test all
options.

When I took the machine next door (on the same 'network') my mate
pretty well did everything you suggest ( I downloaded a Sniffer) but I
don't think he was able to see 'why' it wasn't working (just that it
was different)?

On the PCMCIA card we could see am immediate DHCP response from my
D-Link router / DHCP server and with the internal Ethernet port,
nothing? Was I was worried about is the 'Sniffer' might 'think' the
DHCP request was going out when it wasn't actually?

As soon as he enabled the DHCP server on his 'Smoothwall' all worked
ok?

All the best and thanks again ..

T i m

Tim,

AFAIK the DHCP protocol in Windows XP is handled independently of
the network driver, which would mean you'd be on the wrong track
sniffing the protocol packets.

Suggestions:
1) Check the set-up on your router for anything relating to its
DHCP server functionality. I once chased a similar problem only to
find that the router's maximum DHCP clients was set too low - DOH!

2) Try disabling and renabling the network connection.

3) Try stopping and restarting the DHCP Client service.

4) Failure to agree on 10Mbps vs 100Mbps, half vs full duplex
maybe? - try auto then all four combinations of static settings for
the LAN adapter.

5) Try setting up a static IP config in the same subnet for the
suspect adapter - can you then ping other nodes OK?


--
BRG
===
http://www.brgservices.co.uk/

===

T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> On 15 Apr 2004 00:53:29 -0700, (E-Mail Removed) (Pete
> Mainwaring) wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> Anyone out there got any ideas on how I could 'prove' which
>>> end isn't following the relevent std re the DHCP handshake etc
>>> please? (I did download a network 'sniffer' but it would
>>> probably need to be an external device on the same segment to
>>> get real results?)
>>>
>>> All the best ..
>>>
>>> T i m
>>
>>I think you are going to need the sniffer trace to prove what is
>>happening. The sniffer s/w should run on the Acer PC itself. If
>>you run the sniffer s/w and then do an "ipconfig /renew"
>>(possibly preceded by an "ipconfig /release") from a command
>>prompt, it should restart the DHCP handshake.
>
> Hi Pete and thanks very much for the reply.
>
> I'm sort of waiting on the Co that acted as a 'supplier' for the
> Insurance Co to come back to me with a suggestion for a
> replacement (brand) for the Acer, but in the mean time I would
> like to test all options.
>
> When I took the machine next door (on the same 'network') my
> mate pretty well did everything you suggest ( I downloaded a
> Sniffer) but I don't think he was able to see 'why' it wasn't
> working (just that it was different)?
>
> On the PCMCIA card we could see am immediate DHCP response from
> my D-Link router / DHCP server and with the internal Ethernet
> port, nothing? Was I was worried about is the 'Sniffer' might
> 'think' the DHCP request was going out when it wasn't actually?
>
> As soon as he enabled the DHCP server on his 'Smoothwall' all
> worked ok?
>
> All the best and thanks again ..
>
> T i m

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:55:12 +0100, Graham <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:09:41 +0100, T i m wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Last Monday I received a new Acer 1353XC as an insurance replacement
>> for my trusty Compaq 1260 (that got dopped).
>>
>> I finished the XP Home install on the Acer and tried to use it on my
>> network with no luck.
>>
>> I plugged in a Cardbus 10/100 Ethernet card and that connected to my
>> network (and internet) straight away. I had the same sucess with a
>> Netgear WiFi card and a D-Link USB / Ethernet converter. I sawped
>> cables / ports and locked the built in VIA Rhine II port in the Acer
>> to 10M etc but no improvement. The 'Status' screen on XP networking
>> showed no RX data on the Ethernet port so I assumed it was dead.
>>
>> It was returned to Acer and promply 'repaired / tested' and returned
>> to me yesterday. I plugged it onto my LAN but it was still dead (no
>> DHCP but all the lights were on etc).
>>
>> My next door tekky mate (our networks are connected) enabled the DHCP
>> server on his Smoothwall and away the Acer went (DHCP etc) so it's not
>> actually a hard 'fault' as such?
>>
>> Now, I must of had 50 different network devices / machines on my
>> Di-704 Router as DHCP clients over the years and they all have worked
>> ok?
>>
>> Acer can't help much further so I might be looking for another similar
>> priced laptop as an alternative ;-(
>>
>> Anyone out there got any ideas on how I could 'prove' which end isn't
>> following the relevent std re the DHCP handshake etc please? (I did
>> download a network 'sniffer' but it would probably need to be an
>> external device on the same segment to get real results?)
>>
>> All the best ..
>>
>> T i m
>
>A few things that could be tried spring to mind here.
>You seem to have a fairly large network, are there enough spare IP
>addresses available to your DHCP server.

Well .. I seem to have (with your prompting) stumbled across the
solution (but still am not convinced)?

>Make sure that DHCP address range don't overlap into your static address
>ramge.

Ok, so next door uses static I/P's, all under the (192.168.0).99
range. My router is on .100 and also use static I/P's from .101-105
for the 'home' PC's. The wireless stuff is mostly static on .200 up.

>Make sure that you only have one DHCP server.

We only have one (except for the tests the other day).

If your mate has a DHCP server on his network, is this trying to
allocate addresses on your network?

His has a scope of .10 upwards (not sure what his upper limit is?)

>Try allocating a static address to your new laptop, does it work now?

Yes it did. I first did it via Knoppix then XP Pro and both were ok.
>
>It is Windows XP that implements the DHCP standard and not the hardware,
>so if it works OK on one network device it should be OK on all devices.

And that was (without better 'tools') was what I was basing my logic
on? However ...

I checked my router and it seemed my DHCP server range was set to
192.168.0.101>110? As we speak the only devices on my LAN are the
router (.100) my PC (.101) and the Wireless AP (.200).

My daughter was also using the old Compaq laptop set for DHCP (USB >
Ethernet) and that had picked up .102 (although alocated to a static
address on another PC it wasn't turned on).

When I used the PCMCIA, Wireless or USB devices in the Acer they all
were able to pickup the first 'unalocated' address (even though some
were active as static I/P's at the time) and I saw no "IP address
conflict" messages at either end? For some reason the built in Rhine
II card takes the *last* address in the range (.110) and for reasons
unknown was failing. When I spotted this oversight I reset the DHCP
range to 150-160, saved and reset the router and tried all the devices
again. WiFi, PCMCIA and USB devices (one-at-a-time) get 150 and the
inbuilt picks up 160?

I reset the range back to the overlaping range (101-110) and it still
picks up 110 but this time works ok!

Is there a 'rule' for how DHCP accocated IP adresses should be
accepted and if so, which way round is it please?

So, thanks very much for making me look again at my Router config
Graham (even though I was in there the day before doh).

I wonder how long it has been like that but working fine with
everything else? (I've put the DHCP scope back to 150-160 now <g>)

All the best ..

T i m (confused but happy!) ;-)

On 15 Apr 2004 10:44:41 GMT, BRG <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Tim,
>
>AFAIK the DHCP protocol in Windows XP is handled independently of
>the network driver, which would mean you'd be on the wrong track
>sniffing the protocol packets.

Ah, ok .. So where / what *does* handle it?

I have posted a 'result' to the group since you kindly answered me but
I'll comment on your poins if I may ..
>
>Suggestions:
>1) Check the set-up on your router for anything relating to its
>DHCP server functionality. I once chased a similar problem only to
>find that the router's maximum DHCP clients was set too low - DOH!

Was probably discovering the same as you were posting BRG! I *had*
the DHCP scope overlapping my statics but that hadn't caused a problem
before and specifically not a problem on the Acer with 3 other network
devices?
>
>2) Try disabling and renabling the network connection.

Been there, done that (several times) and moreso installed 98SE, XP
Pro, run Knoppix (from CD) and the pre installed XP Home with
identical results?
>
>3) Try stopping and restarting the DHCP Client service.

Ah, well we may have been close here but not for 'logical' reasons?
The DHCP server runs in RAM on the Firmware driven D-Link Router and
as everything else was working ok didn't consider that was a likely
problem? It would appear that the built in Rhine II port somehow
requests / accepts? the upper address in the range and for reasons
unknown, was 'stuck' (within the router). When I reallocated the DHP
scope to 150-160 all worked ok but the inbuilt port STILL went for 160
whilst ALL the other devices (and other devices on my and next door's
LAN) takes / accepts the lower first? Just-to-see, I set the range
back to 101-110 (save, reboot router) and the Acer then worked
perfectly ok on 110?
>
>4) Failure to agree on 10Mbps vs 100Mbps, half vs full duplex
>maybe? - try auto then all four combinations of static settings for
>the LAN adapter.

Good thought, I *had* tried locking the port to 10M HD but it made no
difference. The Acer was infact connected to the 8 port Netgear 10/100
switch and from there to the Router. I assumed that if it was a
'comms' problem it wouldn't have taked an address from my mates
Smoothwall DHCP server?
>
>5) Try setting up a static IP config in the same subnet for the
>suspect adapter - can you then ping other nodes OK?

I didn't ping anything but after setting static IP (in both Knoppix
and then XP) and downloading 200MB of UT2004 demo I considered it was
ok ;-)

So, AFAICS, the 'problem' wouldn't have been noticed if the Acer's
Rhine II ethernet port had worked 'conventionally' (picked up I/P
addresses bottom up) and my last question is "does anyone know what
the rules are here" please (probably within a RFC somewhere?)

All the best .. and thanks very much again ..

T i m

Glad you've got it working. More comments below ==>

T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> On 15 Apr 2004 10:44:41 GMT, BRG <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>Tim,
>>
>>AFAIK the DHCP protocol in Windows XP is handled independently
>>of the network driver, which would mean you'd be on the wrong
>>track sniffing the protocol packets.
>
> Ah, ok .. So where / what *does* handle it?
>
==> I think its the DHCP Client Service.

> I have posted a 'result' to the group since you kindly answered
> me but I'll comment on your poins if I may ..
>>
>>Suggestions:
>>1) Check the set-up on your router for anything relating to its
>>DHCP server functionality. I once chased a similar problem only
>>to find that the router's maximum DHCP clients was set too low -
>>DOH!
>
> Was probably discovering the same as you were posting BRG! I
> *had* the DHCP scope overlapping my statics but that hadn't
> caused a problem before and specifically not a problem on the
> Acer with 3 other network devices?
>>
>>2) Try disabling and renabling the network connection.
>
> Been there, done that (several times) and moreso installed 98SE,
> XP Pro, run Knoppix (from CD) and the pre installed XP Home with
> identical results?
==> Agreed. The drivers on those systems would all be different.

>>
>>3) Try stopping and restarting the DHCP Client service.
>
> Ah, well we may have been close here but not for 'logical'
> reasons? The DHCP server runs in RAM on the Firmware driven
> D-Link Router and as everything else was working ok didn't
> consider that was a likely problem? It would appear that the
> built in Rhine II port somehow requests / accepts? the upper
> address in the range and for reasons unknown, was 'stuck'
> (within the router). When I reallocated the DHP scope to 150-160
> all worked ok but the inbuilt port STILL went for 160 whilst ALL
> the other devices (and other devices on my and next door's LAN)
> takes / accepts the lower first? Just-to-see, I set the range
> back to 101-110 (save, reboot router) and the Acer then worked
> perfectly ok on 110?
>>
>>4) Failure to agree on 10Mbps vs 100Mbps, half vs full duplex
>>maybe? - try auto then all four combinations of static settings
>>for the LAN adapter.
>
> Good thought, I *had* tried locking the port to 10M HD but it
> made no difference. The Acer was infact connected to the 8 port
> Netgear 10/100 switch and from there to the Router. I assumed
> that if it was a 'comms' problem it wouldn't have taked an
> address from my mates Smoothwall DHCP server?
==> I'd assumed you were connected to a different device when
testing on your mate's network.

>>
>>5) Try setting up a static IP config in the same subnet for the
>>suspect adapter - can you then ping other nodes OK?
>
> I didn't ping anything but after setting static IP (in both
> Knoppix and then XP) and downloading 200MB of UT2004 demo I
> considered it was ok ;-)
==> Seems a reasonable conclusion :-)

>
> So, AFAICS, the 'problem' wouldn't have been noticed if the
> Acer's Rhine II ethernet port had worked 'conventionally'
> (picked up I/P addresses bottom up) and my last question is
> "does anyone know what the rules are here" please (probably
> within a RFC somewhere?)
>

==> There's a simplified summary of how DHCP *should* work here:
http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/Dumm...d-1015,subcat-
CERTIFICATION.html

==> I can't make sense of the symptoms you observed but there you
go - the joys and mysteries of networking :-)










--
BRG
===
http://www.brgservices.co.uk/

On 15 Apr 2004 12:15:10 GMT, BRG <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>>>AFAIK the DHCP protocol in Windows XP is handled independently
>>>of the network driver, which would mean you'd be on the wrong
>>>track sniffing the protocol packets.
>>
>> Ah, ok .. So where / what *does* handle it?
>>
>==> I think its the DHCP Client Service.

Ok, so that would be built into TCP/IP rather than the Client
software?
>

>>>2) Try disabling and renabling the network connection.
>>
>> Been there, done that (several times) and moreso installed 98SE,
>> XP Pro, run Knoppix (from CD) and the pre installed XP Home with
>> identical results?
>==> Agreed. The drivers on those systems would all be different.

Swot I though .. and they *All* couldn't be wrong ?
>
>>>

>
>> So, AFAICS, the 'problem' wouldn't have been noticed if the
>> Acer's Rhine II ethernet port had worked 'conventionally'
>> (picked up I/P addresses bottom up) and my last question is
>> "does anyone know what the rules are here" please (probably
>> within a RFC somewhere?)
>>
>
>==> There's a simplified summary of how DHCP *should* work here:
>http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/Dumm...d-1015,subcat-
>CERTIFICATION.html

That's handy (I might look back over the log files and see how it
fits) but probably not deep enough to answer the 'direction' thing?
I'll look further ..
>
>==> I can't make sense of the symptoms you observed but there you
>go - the joys and mysteries of networking :-)

Oh, indeed .. classic hole to fall into .. "I *assumed* the router was
ok as it worked with everything else ..." ;-(

And not just Networking ... PC's .. cars, Wives ...... ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

snip

> If your mate has a DHCP server on his network, is this trying to
> allocate addresses on your network?

>> His has a scope of .10 upwards (not sure what his upper limit is?)

snip

I see from your answer here that you both have a DHCP server on the same
network segment. It doesn't matter that the address ranges or scope don't
overlap they will still conflict with each other.

When you power on a PC that asks for a DHCP address it will broadcast a
request across the whole network, including your mates network. Your
router will probably respond first because it is nearer and the request
may suceeed (most of the time) dut your mates DHCP server will also
respond and try to allocate an address also. I think this is where the
problem lies.

Try disconnecting the link to your mates network and retry with your
original settings.

It is not ideal to join two network segments with their own internet
gateways together directly. The best solution would be to split them using
another router. Or failing that make all the IP addresses on one side of
the network static.

Graham.