upgraded and now router is constantly dropping the link.

Setup
=====
Clara Max Home 2GB (same technology as BT Max)
D-link DSL-504 (old but has been flawless at slower speeds)
Home network behind all that. All flawless till speed upgrade.

Symptoms
========
Random re-training of modem part of router. May be fine for 12 hours,
may retrain every minute. No pattern detected. Except maybe the colder
it is outside the worse it is.

Things tried
============

Disconnecting PABX and going in raw. MAYBE 0.5dB or less better signal.
Can't eliminate filter, as have no adapter from BT to router style plug
Going in behind BT faceplate. No difference.
BT voice test on line. Passes.
ISP 'tested line' says its fine. Say they 'cant help' till I've
unplugged whole network and connected with just one PC (don't have a PC)
and no filter (don't have a cable) and a different router. Yeah, right.


ROUTER STATS.
============
Current Firmware Version R2.21.002.06.b17uk
ADSL driver Version 1.3.5.03182002.0001
Protocol ADSL
State Showtime
Data Path Interleave
Operation Mode G.DMT

Downstream Upstream
Line Status
ADSL Link Speed 5056 kbps 448 kbps
SNR 4.0 dB 0.0 dB
ATEN 46 dB 25 dB
Line Error
ADSL layer
FEC 34854 0
CRC 2 0
ATM layer
HEC 1 0
Frame Counter 1430185 1182451

Loop Distance: About 9 K ft.

From logs cleared midday..note corrupt data in the places where it
stops..only [BUN] events are shown..the rest is just 'yes ppp ok and
logged in ok and..'

[BUN]2007/11/12 13:34:19-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 15:44:11-p :
[BUN]2007/11/12 15:44:24-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 17:26:25-0�Ÿ:
[BUN]2007/11/12 17:26:38-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 17:52:39-ðœŸ:
[BUN]2007/11/12 17:53:03-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:00:39-Connect:PPP Stop (I think I diod this one manually)
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:00:53-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:11:52-Connect:PPP IPCP reaches open state
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:12:06-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:16:08-Connect:PPP IPCP reaches open state
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:16:21-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:20:22-Connect:PPP Stop
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:20:36-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:37:14-Connect:PPP IPCP reaches open state
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:37:28-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 18:38:37-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:17:00-@hŸ:
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:17:14-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:39:44-Connect:PPP IPCP reaches open state
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:39:57-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:55:40-`•Ÿ:
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:55:53-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:59:13-Connect:PPP IPCP reaches open state
[BUN]2007/11/12 19:59:27-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 20:09:24-Connect:PPP Stop
[BUN]2007/11/12 20:09:37-Link:ADSL Link Up
[BUN]2007/11/12 20:13:56-:
[BUN]2007/11/12 20:16:08-Link:ADSL Link Up

My questions are these:

1/. is this sort of behaviour simply what is expected at these signal
levels - i.e. is the line and router basically fine, just trying to do
TOO MUCH.?

2/. If so, how do I fore the thing into a lower speed to get stability?

3/. If not, is it the router, or the line?

4/. Is this sort of buck passing behaviour typical of broadband support?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Setup
> =====
> Clara Max Home 2GB (same technology as BT Max)
> D-link DSL-504 (old but has been flawless at slower speeds)
> Home network behind all that. All flawless till speed upgrade.
>
> Symptoms
> ========
> Random re-training of modem part of router. May be fine for 12 hours,
> may retrain every minute. No pattern detected. Except maybe the colder
> it is outside the worse it is.

<snip>

How long have you been on Max?

> My questions are these:
>
> 1/. is this sort of behaviour simply what is expected at these signal
> levels - i.e. is the line and router basically fine, just trying to do
> TOO MUCH.?

Yes, it looks like it. 4dB downstream noise margin is just a little too low.
IME one needs about 5.5-6dB for a stable connection.

> 2/. If so, how do I fore the thing into a lower speed to get stability?

In theory, that's what the training period does.

> 3/. If not, is it the router, or the line?
>
> 4/. Is this sort of buck passing behaviour typical of broadband support?

Who have they passed the buck to?

--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ((E-Mail Removed))
21:35:23 up 1 day, 10:13, 1 user, load average: 0.08, 0.07, 0.11
50,000 watts of funking power

"The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Setup
> =====
> Clara Max Home 2GB (same technology as BT Max)
> D-link DSL-504 (old but has been flawless at slower speeds)
> Home network behind all that. All flawless till speed upgrade.
>
> Symptoms
> ========
> Random re-training of modem part of router. May be fine for 12 hours, may
> retrain every minute. No pattern detected. Except maybe the colder it is
> outside the worse it is.
>
> Things tried
> ============
>
> Disconnecting PABX and going in raw. MAYBE 0.5dB or less better signal.
> Can't eliminate filter, as have no adapter from BT to router style plug
> Going in behind BT faceplate. No difference.
> BT voice test on line. Passes.
> ISP 'tested line' says its fine. Say they 'cant help' till I've unplugged
> whole network and connected with just one PC (don't have a PC) and no
> filter (don't have a cable) and a different router. Yeah, right.
>
>
> ROUTER STATS.
> ============
> Current Firmware Version R2.21.002.06.b17uk
> ADSL driver Version 1.3.5.03182002.0001
> Protocol ADSL
> State Showtime
> Data Path Interleave
> Operation Mode G.DMT
>
> Downstream Upstream
> Line Status ADSL Link Speed 5056 kbps 448 kbps
> SNR 4.0 dB 0.0 dB
> ATEN 46 dB 25 dB

[snip]

Please explain PABX
Try another filter
Try another router - borrow one! Might also be able to borrow a cable to
eliminate need for filter.

SNR margins are too low for reliable operation. You need about 7dB
downstream. I would expect to see at least 10 dB upstream given your
figures - I suspect the router has not yet completed its rate adaptation to
the speed upgrade.

If the performance does not improve with a different router, your ISP can
ask BT to increase the SNR margin - might have to wait a couple of hours for
BT to change it.

--
Graham J

alexd wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Setup
>> =====
>> Clara Max Home 2GB (same technology as BT Max)
>> D-link DSL-504 (old but has been flawless at slower speeds)
>> Home network behind all that. All flawless till speed upgrade.
>>
>> Symptoms
>> ========
>> Random re-training of modem part of router. May be fine for 12 hours,
>> may retrain every minute. No pattern detected. Except maybe the colder
>> it is outside the worse it is.
>
> <snip>
>
> How long have you been on Max?
>

12 days..

>> My questions are these:
>>
>> 1/. is this sort of behaviour simply what is expected at these signal
>> levels - i.e. is the line and router basically fine, just trying to do
>> TOO MUCH.?
>
> Yes, it looks like it. 4dB downstream noise margin is just a little too low.
> IME one needs about 5.5-6dB for a stable connection.
Ok..that cofors whaty someone else said.

>
>> 2/. If so, how do I fore the thing into a lower speed to get stability?
>
> In theory, that's what the training period does.
>

The handshake, or the 10 days..

>> 3/. If not, is it the router, or the line?
>>
>> 4/. Is this sort of buck passing behaviour typical of broadband support?
>
> Who have they passed the buck to?

Well me really. I got the distinct impression that he was trying to
aamke me do useless things so he could get home.

>

Graham J wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Setup
>> =====
>> Clara Max Home 2GB (same technology as BT Max)
>> D-link DSL-504 (old but has been flawless at slower speeds)
>> Home network behind all that. All flawless till speed upgrade.
>>
>> Symptoms
>> ========
>> Random re-training of modem part of router. May be fine for 12 hours, may
>> retrain every minute. No pattern detected. Except maybe the colder it is
>> outside the worse it is.
>>
>> Things tried
>> ============
>>
>> Disconnecting PABX and going in raw. MAYBE 0.5dB or less better signal.
>> Can't eliminate filter, as have no adapter from BT to router style plug
>> Going in behind BT faceplate. No difference.
>> BT voice test on line. Passes.
>> ISP 'tested line' says its fine. Say they 'cant help' till I've unplugged
>> whole network and connected with just one PC (don't have a PC) and no
>> filter (don't have a cable) and a different router. Yeah, right.
>>
>>
>> ROUTER STATS.
>> ============
>> Current Firmware Version R2.21.002.06.b17uk
>> ADSL driver Version 1.3.5.03182002.0001
>> Protocol ADSL
>> State Showtime
>> Data Path Interleave
>> Operation Mode G.DMT
>>
>> Downstream Upstream
>> Line Status ADSL Link Speed 5056 kbps 448 kbps
>> SNR 4.0 dB 0.0 dB
>> ATEN 46 dB 25 dB
>
> [snip]
>
> Please explain PABX

Private auxiliary branch exchange. A phone system, One wire in, many
extensions out. Less load than a normal phone.



> Try another filter

Haven't got one.

> Try another router - borrow one! Might also be able to borrow a cable to
> eliminate need for filter.

Where from?
Nearest neighbour is 200yrads away and they are so religious they
haven't even got TV;-)

>
> SNR margins are too low for reliable operation. You need about 7dB
> downstream. I would expect to see at least 10 dB upstream given your
> figures - I suspect the router has not yet completed its rate adaptation to
> the speed upgrade.
>
Fairy Nuff

> If the performance does not improve with a different router, your ISP can
> ask BT to increase the SNR margin - might have to wait a couple of hours for
> BT to change it.
>

Hm.
Boost the DSLAM eh?

On 12-Nov-2007, alexd <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Yes, it looks like it. 4dB downstream noise margin is just a little too
> low.
> IME one needs about 5.5-6dB for a stable connection.

Try another filter, or buy a cheap one and plug it into the telephone
socket of the current one, and the phones into the second one.
Leave the ADSL plugged, as at present into the existing one.
You are just adding an extra filter on the phone side, it's cheaper
than buying the expensive 12 quid ones, when you only
want to see if it improves things. A cheap filter should be
around 3 quid with local traders, or around a tenner at DIY stores.
Maybe you need a modem/router that works better on
marginal lines, or has the option of flashing for
long lines.
Sure you haven't a noisy line or one with a dry joint, which has
just become apparent with the upgrade?
Worse when it's colder, at night it gets colder, and people come
home and start using broadband, so in residential areas noise
and crosstalk from other ADSL users tends to be worse.

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> On 12-Nov-2007, alexd <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Yes, it looks like it. 4dB downstream noise margin is just a little too
>> low.
>> IME one needs about 5.5-6dB for a stable connection.
>
> Try another filter, or buy a cheap one and plug it into the telephone
> socket of the current one, and the phones into the second one.
> Leave the ADSL plugged, as at present into the existing one.
> You are just adding an extra filter on the phone side, it's cheaper
> than buying the expensive 12 quid ones, when you only
> want to see if it improves things. A cheap filter should be
> around 3 quid with local traders, or around a tenner at DIY stores.
> Maybe you need a modem/router that works better on
> marginal lines, or has the option of flashing for
> long lines.
> Sure you haven't a noisy line or one with a dry joint, which has
> just become apparent with the upgrade?
> Worse when it's colder, at night it gets colder, and people come
> home and start using broadband, so in residential areas noise
> and crosstalk from other ADSL users tends to be worse.

I don't think that is the issue - the filter anyway - that's to stop
phones interfering wit the router. I've. unplugged that and no difference.

The real issue is WHY is my router training at a speed it cannot
reliably maintain?

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:49:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Graham J wrote:
>
>> If the performance does not improve with a different router, your ISP can
>> ask BT to increase the SNR margin - might have to wait a couple of hours for
>> BT to change it.
>
>Hm.
>Boost the DSLAM eh?

No, they'd change a setting so your modem would sync at a lower speed but
at a higher SNR ratio - MAX is a trade-off between the two.

(My Netgear DG834GT with the latest UberGT firmware is stable with SNRs as
low as 1.0dB - and I'm not making this up. It's the only way I can get a
2Mbit/sec connection)

--
-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell Eridani Star System
MailStripper - http://www.MailStripper.eu/ - SMTP spam filter
Mail Me Anywhere - http://www.MailMeAnywhere.com/ - Mobile email
Second Number - http://secondnumber.matrixnetwork.co.uk/

Soruk wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:49:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Graham J wrote:
>>
>>> If the performance does not improve with a different router, your ISP can
>>> ask BT to increase the SNR margin - might have to wait a couple of hours for
>>> BT to change it.
>> Hm.
>> Boost the DSLAM eh?
>
> No, they'd change a setting so your modem would sync at a lower speed but
> at a higher SNR ratio - MAX is a trade-off between the two.
>
> (My Netgear DG834GT with the latest UberGT firmware is stable with SNRs as
> low as 1.0dB - and I'm not making this up. It's the only way I can get a
> 2Mbit/sec connection)
>

That's precisely what I need. The problem is how to get past the wall of
incompetence on the support desk and get them to actually do it.

"The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Soruk wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:49:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>> Graham J wrote:
>>>
>>>> If the performance does not improve with a different router, your ISP
>>>> can ask BT to increase the SNR margin - might have to wait a couple of
>>>> hours for BT to change it.
>>> Hm.
>>> Boost the DSLAM eh?
>>
>> No, they'd change a setting so your modem would sync at a lower speed but
>> at a higher SNR ratio - MAX is a trade-off between the two.
>>
>> (My Netgear DG834GT with the latest UberGT firmware is stable with SNRs
>> as low as 1.0dB - and I'm not making this up. It's the only way I can get
>> a 2Mbit/sec connection)
>>
>
> That's precisely what I need. The problem is how to get past the wall of
> incompetence on the support desk and get them to actually do it.

Change to a competent ISP first !!!!
========================

--
Graham J