Unreliable network printing

I'm ready to dropkick my printer towards Redmond. I have a WIndows ME
laptop and an XP desktop with a printer connected by a wireless LAN. I have
no problems finding the printer, but I get frequent failures that leave
things broken until I reboot. When I print from the laptop, I get the print
dialog, click OK, and then either the printer starts and prints half a page
before stalling and giving me the "device not available, contact my network
administrator". (Come on Microsoft -- this is a HOME Edition operating
system. How many homes have a network administrator?), or nothing happens
at all. If nothing happens, trying to bring up the printer device and check
on it often results in the window for the printer just hanging.

I suspect the problem is that the network printing software simply isn't
recovering from wireless network errors. Is there anything I can do to
improve error recovery, or at least force everything to reset without yet
another reboot (which often doesn't work anyway because the ME machine
refuses to shut down and has to be powered off and go through a 15 minute
disk scan before I can try again.)


--
Warren Montgomery (E-Mail Removed) (
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:58:34 -0600, "warren montgomery"
<*email_address_deleted*> wrote:

>I'm ready to dropkick my printer towards Redmond. I have a WIndows ME
>laptop and an XP desktop with a printer connected by a wireless LAN. I have
>no problems finding the printer, but I get frequent failures that leave
>things broken until I reboot. When I print from the laptop, I get the print
>dialog, click OK, and then either the printer starts and prints half a page
>before stalling and giving me the "device not available, contact my network
>administrator". (Come on Microsoft -- this is a HOME Edition operating
>system. How many homes have a network administrator?), or nothing happens
>at all. If nothing happens, trying to bring up the printer device and check
>on it often results in the window for the printer just hanging.
>
>I suspect the problem is that the network printing software simply isn't
>recovering from wireless network errors. Is there anything I can do to
>improve error recovery, or at least force everything to reset without yet
>another reboot (which often doesn't work anyway because the ME machine
>refuses to shut down and has to be powered off and go through a 15 minute
>disk scan before I can try again.)

Warren,

How is the printer connected? Is it a network printer - - does its
driver specifically support printing from a network? My earlier
printer, an HP Deskjet 722C (no wireless LAN, but similar problems)
was NOT designed for network access, it worked, but had problems. I
replaced it with an HP Deskjet 952C, which is specifically designed
for network use. Much more reliable.

How are the computers and printer connected to each other? Is
everything wireless, or just the laptop?

Are you using the latest drivers for the printer, and for both
computers?

Cheers,
Chuck
Paranoia comes from experience - and is not necessarily a bad thing.

>
> How is the printer connected? Is it a network printer - - does its
> driver specifically support printing from a network? My earlier
> printer, an HP Deskjet 722C (no wireless LAN, but similar problems)
> was NOT designed for network access, it worked, but had problems. I
> replaced it with an HP Deskjet 952C, which is specifically designed
> for network use. Much more reliable.
>
>
> How are the computers and printer connected to each other? Is
> everything wireless, or just the laptop?
>
It's an HP 660C, connected to the XP machine with a parallel printer
interface. The XP machine has a wireless USB (linksys 802.11b), and the ME
machine has a wireless plug in card. They connect through a Linksys access
point/router. The printer is set up to be shareable. As I said I have no
problems with accessing it or making it visible, I seem to have a
reliability problem once things get going. I have no idea what you mean by
"designed for network use" or how I'd determine it. The printer is probably
8 years old and originally connected to another machine. I've updated the
print drivers to the latest offered by HP and Microsoft for it.
>
> Are you using the latest drivers for the printer, and for both
> computers?
>


--
Warren Montgomery (E-Mail Removed) (
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:05:52 -0600, "warren montgomery"
<*email_address_deleted*> wrote:

>>
>> How is the printer connected? Is it a network printer - - does its
>> driver specifically support printing from a network? My earlier
>> printer, an HP Deskjet 722C (no wireless LAN, but similar problems)
>> was NOT designed for network access, it worked, but had problems. I
>> replaced it with an HP Deskjet 952C, which is specifically designed
>> for network use. Much more reliable.
>>
>>
>> How are the computers and printer connected to each other? Is
>> everything wireless, or just the laptop?
>>
>It's an HP 660C, connected to the XP machine with a parallel printer
>interface. The XP machine has a wireless USB (linksys 802.11b), and the ME
>machine has a wireless plug in card. They connect through a Linksys access
>point/router. The printer is set up to be shareable. As I said I have no
>problems with accessing it or making it visible, I seem to have a
>reliability problem once things get going. I have no idea what you mean by
>"designed for network use" or how I'd determine it. The printer is probably
>8 years old and originally connected to another machine. I've updated the
>print drivers to the latest offered by HP and Microsoft for it.
>>
>> Are you using the latest drivers for the printer, and for both
>> computers?
>>

Warren,

Your experience sounds pretty much like mine. My 722C was not
designed as a network printer, I was getting odd errors occasionally.
HP Support told me the 722C is not designed for network use, and the
printer drivers can only compensate so much. I replaced it with a
952C, which performs very reliably.

If it's 8 years old, you might want to replace it. You could keep it
as a backup (as I did with my 722C) (my 722C sits gathering dust).

Your network setup might be contributing to the problem. Your print
jobs from the ME machine use the wireless LAN twice - each packet goes
from the ME machine to the router, and from the router to the XP
machine. I've seen reports that print jobs may not perform well that
way.

How far does the XP machine (and the ME machine) sit from the router?
Do you have any microwave ovens or cordless phones? Wireless
interference could be part of the problem. That plus the dual
wireless path would definitely cause job reliability problem IMHO.

Does your Linksys have a print server? If not, you might want to
consider getting a wired print server and connecting the printer
directly to the router (of course you'd have to get a new printer
too).

BTW, is that your email address in your posts? Learn to munge
properly, to keep yourself a bit safer.
http://www.mailmsg.com/SPAM_munging.htm

Cheers,
Chuck
Paranoia comes from experience - and is not necessarily a bad thing.

>
> If it's 8 years old, you might want to replace it. You could keep it
> as a backup (as I did with my 722C) (my 722C sits gathering dust).
>
Well this give me some home it might be fixed when I do replace it.
>
> Your network setup might be contributing to the problem. Your print
> jobs from the ME machine use the wireless LAN twice - each packet goes
> from the ME machine to the router, and from the router to the XP
> machine. I've seen reports that print jobs may not perform well that
> way.
>
True. I'm actually surprised more people don't have this problem. My
router/access point is where the cable is, which isn't where I have or want
a computer. Sure, I could run a cable outlet in another room, but this was
the pain I was trying to avoid by being wireless. If I did that, which I am
strongly considering, I'd leave the cable modem/router alone and run Cat 5
and eliminate the wireless link completely.

> How far does the XP machine (and the ME machine) sit from the router?
> Do you have any microwave ovens or cordless phones? Wireless
> interference could be part of the problem. That plus the dual
> wireless path would definitely cause job reliability problem IMHO.
>
It's long enough to be a problem, but I actually think the real culprit is
the XP's automatic configuration, which periodically disables the link for a
couple of seconds. I've gotten a fix from someone else on this list but
haven't yet found a combination that allows me to have the network
parameters set once and not periodically changed. -- then again I haven't
had the time to spend on it.) All the networking runs over TCP/IP though so
unless the network printing application levels have tight timeouts TCP/IP
should recover all the errors -- right?

> Does your Linksys have a print server? If not, you might want to
> consider getting a wired print server and connecting the printer
> directly to the router (of course you'd have to get a new printer
> too).
>
As I said the problem is the wired network isn't anywhere I want the
printer.
>
> BTW, is that your email address in your posts? Learn to munge
> properly, to keep yourself a bit safer.
> http://www.mailmsg.com/SPAM_munging.htm
>
I haven't found it necessary. I'm a computer veteran (I installed an early
copy of the newsgroups software on Unix machines in the early 1980's and
contributed to the design), and while I munged by addresses when Spam first
became an issue I never bothered when I set up this account and in 3 years
haven't found it necessary. (It's more annoying to be well enough known
that my email appears in a lot of Outlook express address books and I get
lots of virus related traffic each time a new one comes out).

Anyway, thanks for addressing the question and following up.
--
Warren Montgomery (E-Mail Removed) (
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

I just thought I'd jump in.... Does your wireless network have any problems
with respect to LAN or internet connectivity? I'm wondering if there is an
interference problem which is affecting your wireless network. Do you have
any 2.4GHz phones in your house?
I have 2 printers, a HP 5P laserjet and a HP D135 officejet. They are
hardwire connected to a XP box but I never have an issue printing to either
one from my laptop connected wirelessly (802.11g). Your setup being totally
wireless is more demanding but it seems it should still work.


"warren montgomery" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:2bOdneP0sqTppafdRVn-(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> > If it's 8 years old, you might want to replace it. You could keep it
> > as a backup (as I did with my 722C) (my 722C sits gathering dust).
> >
> Well this give me some home it might be fixed when I do replace it.
> >
> > Your network setup might be contributing to the problem. Your print
> > jobs from the ME machine use the wireless LAN twice - each packet goes
> > from the ME machine to the router, and from the router to the XP
> > machine. I've seen reports that print jobs may not perform well that
> > way.
> >
> True. I'm actually surprised more people don't have this problem. My
> router/access point is where the cable is, which isn't where I have or
want
> a computer. Sure, I could run a cable outlet in another room, but this
was
> the pain I was trying to avoid by being wireless. If I did that, which I
am
> strongly considering, I'd leave the cable modem/router alone and run Cat 5
> and eliminate the wireless link completely.
>
> > How far does the XP machine (and the ME machine) sit from the router?
> > Do you have any microwave ovens or cordless phones? Wireless
> > interference could be part of the problem. That plus the dual
> > wireless path would definitely cause job reliability problem IMHO.
> >
> It's long enough to be a problem, but I actually think the real culprit is
> the XP's automatic configuration, which periodically disables the link for
a
> couple of seconds. I've gotten a fix from someone else on this list but
> haven't yet found a combination that allows me to have the network
> parameters set once and not periodically changed. -- then again I haven't
> had the time to spend on it.) All the networking runs over TCP/IP though
so
> unless the network printing application levels have tight timeouts TCP/IP
> should recover all the errors -- right?
>
> > Does your Linksys have a print server? If not, you might want to
> > consider getting a wired print server and connecting the printer
> > directly to the router (of course you'd have to get a new printer
> > too).
> >
> As I said the problem is the wired network isn't anywhere I want the
> printer.
> >
> > BTW, is that your email address in your posts? Learn to munge
> > properly, to keep yourself a bit safer.
> > http://www.mailmsg.com/SPAM_munging.htm
> >
> I haven't found it necessary. I'm a computer veteran (I installed an
early
> copy of the newsgroups software on Unix machines in the early 1980's and
> contributed to the design), and while I munged by addresses when Spam
first
> became an issue I never bothered when I set up this account and in 3 years
> haven't found it necessary. (It's more annoying to be well enough known
> that my email appears in a lot of Outlook express address books and I get
> lots of virus related traffic each time a new one comes out).
>
> Anyway, thanks for addressing the question and following up.
> --
> Warren Montgomery (E-Mail Removed) (
> http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )
>
>

> I just thought I'd jump in.... Does your wireless network have any
problems
> with respect to LAN or internet connectivity? I'm wondering if there is
an
> interference problem which is affecting your wireless network. Do you
have
> any 2.4GHz phones in your house?
> I have 2 printers, a HP 5P laserjet and a HP D135 officejet. They are
> hardwire connected to a XP box but I never have an issue printing to
either
> one from my laptop connected wirelessly (802.11g). Your setup being
totally
> wireless is more demanding but it seems it should still work.
>
I have trouble transferring large files. When I monitor the throughput
rates (i.e. move a 200Meg audio recording while watching the TCP/IP transfer
rates on both machines), I notice a pattern of occasional dropouts of about
5 seconds. As I said elsewhere, this corresponds with the wireless adaptor
in the XP box losing it's signal, which according to other information I got
is because the zero configuration wireless service on XP periodically does
this to look for better signals. I don't know whether the same intermittent
interruptions are causing the printing failures as it's not as easy to
monitor this. I think it's more likely that the printing software just
isn't robust to the possibility that the network may occasionally take a
long time to deliver.
--
Warren Montgomery (E-Mail Removed) (
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:22:26 -0500, "jch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I just thought I'd jump in.... Does your wireless network have any problems
>with respect to LAN or internet connectivity? I'm wondering if there is an
>interference problem which is affecting your wireless network. Do you have
>any 2.4GHz phones in your house?
>I have 2 printers, a HP 5P laserjet and a HP D135 officejet. They are
>hardwire connected to a XP box but I never have an issue printing to either
>one from my laptop connected wirelessly (802.11g). Your setup being totally
>wireless is more demanding but it seems it should still work.

JCH,

How is your XP box connected to the rest of your network? Is it a
wired or wireless connection?

Cheers,
Chuck
Paranoia comes from experience - and is not necessarily a bad thing.

My XP box is hardwired Chuck. I guess what you're getting at is, relative to
this issue, my setup has fewer wireless links. You're right. Still, printing
from the wireless laptop to my printer is and has been robust. I'll keep my
fingers crossed....

"Chuck" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:22:26 -0500, "jch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >I just thought I'd jump in.... Does your wireless network have any
problems
> >with respect to LAN or internet connectivity? I'm wondering if there is
an
> >interference problem which is affecting your wireless network. Do you
have
> >any 2.4GHz phones in your house?
> >I have 2 printers, a HP 5P laserjet and a HP D135 officejet. They are
> >hardwire connected to a XP box but I never have an issue printing to
either
> >one from my laptop connected wirelessly (802.11g). Your setup being
totally
> >wireless is more demanding but it seems it should still work.
>
> JCH,
>
> How is your XP box connected to the rest of your network? Is it a
> wired or wireless connection?
>
> Cheers,
> Chuck
> Paranoia comes from experience - and is not necessarily a bad thing.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:34:52 -0500, "jch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>My XP box is hardwired Chuck. I guess what you're getting at is, relative to
>this issue, my setup has fewer wireless links. You're right. Still, printing
>from the wireless laptop to my printer is and has been robust. I'll keep my
>fingers crossed....

That's the big difference. Warren has a "hidden node" problem,
similar to what's described in this paper:
http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee384y.../shahriar2.pdf

You have a single wireless link from your mobile node to your printer.
That's a more reliable wireless configuration.

Cheers,
Chuck
Paranoia comes from experience - and is not necessarily a bad thing.