'Twisted pair' question

I suspect I am going to regret asking this question.

I have read the varous comments about the importance of using 'twisted
pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a splitter
frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core cable to an
extension in my study/bedroom which has a split telephone/computer
outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and three for telephone. I
tried disconnecting the earth wire but the phone stopped ringing. I
then plugged the router into that extension socket. Am I making a
mistake?

Thanks
Scott

Scott wrote:
> I suspect I am going to regret asking this question.
>
> I have read the varous comments about the importance of using 'twisted
> pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a splitter
> frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core cable to an
> extension in my study/bedroom which has a split telephone/computer
> outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and three for telephone. I
> tried disconnecting the earth wire but the phone stopped ringing. I
> then plugged the router into that extension socket. Am I making a
> mistake?

I have no idea..does it work?

Over a short run twisted pair vis a vis ordinary wire wont make much
difference. Running a bell wire might tho. Easiest to use a master
faceplate on the extension and NOT run the bell wire.



>
> Thanks
> Scott

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:11:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>> I suspect I am going to regret asking this question.
>>
>> I have read the varous comments about the importance of using 'twisted
>> pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a splitter
>> frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core cable to an
>> extension in my study/bedroom which has a split telephone/computer
>> outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and three for telephone. I
>> tried disconnecting the earth wire but the phone stopped ringing. I
>> then plugged the router into that extension socket. Am I making a
>> mistake?
>
>I have no idea..does it work?
>
>Over a short run twisted pair vis a vis ordinary wire wont make much
>difference. Running a bell wire might tho. Easiest to use a master
>faceplate on the extension and NOT run the bell wire.
>
It certainly works but without a lot of speed testing I don't know
whether it is detrimental to performance. That was why I was asking
those who might have an idea!

So far as the bell wire goes, if it is disconnected the extension
phone does not ring.

(I should have said 'bell wire' not 'earth wire'.)

Scott wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:11:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>> I suspect I am going to regret asking this question.
>>>
>>> I have read the varous comments about the importance of using 'twisted
>>> pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a splitter
>>> frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core cable to an
>>> extension in my study/bedroom which has a split telephone/computer
>>> outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and three for telephone. I
>>> tried disconnecting the earth wire but the phone stopped ringing. I
>>> then plugged the router into that extension socket. Am I making a
>>> mistake?
>> I have no idea..does it work?
>>
>> Over a short run twisted pair vis a vis ordinary wire wont make much
>> difference. Running a bell wire might tho. Easiest to use a master
>> faceplate on the extension and NOT run the bell wire.
>>
> It certainly works but without a lot of speed testing I don't know
> whether it is detrimental to performance. That was why I was asking
> those who might have an idea!
>
> So far as the bell wire goes, if it is disconnected the extension
> phone does not ring.
>

So use a 'master' faceplate to regenerate it.

> (I should have said 'bell wire' not 'earth wire'.)

I reaslised that..

On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:45:57 GMT, "Ato_Zee" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>
>On 6-Jun-2009, Scott <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> I have read the varous comments about the importance of using 'twisted
>> pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a splitter
>> frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core cable to an
>> extension in my study/bedroom which has a split telephone/computer
>> outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and three for telephone. I
>> tried disconnecting the earth wire but the phone stopped ringing. I
>> then plugged the router into that extension socket. Am I making a
>> mistake?
>
>Splitter faceplate fitted to master socket is unclear, is it an
>NTE5 master socket?

Yes

>It it is an NTE5 (many illustrations with a Google search) you
>should, with the faceplate fitted, have a small RJ11 socket which
>matches the RJ11 plugs on modem/router patch leads, plus
>a standard BT style phone socket into which a phone can be
>plugged.

Yes

>It's not clear how you have fitted the appropriate plugs onto
>your 8-core, and whether the 8-core has 4 individually
>twisted pairs.

I was trying to keep it simple. The faceplate was modified before
purchase (purchased on the internet). On the back are the original
three positions for phone cables to which I have connected three cores
of the eight core cable. There is a second connector on the back. I
have connected two cores to that (and the same to the RJ11 (RJ45?)
socket on the extension. The router does work so it must all be
connected properly.

>The unspecified possibilities are 8-straight wires in the 8-core,
>or 4-twisted pairs which would also be 8-core, if the cores are
>pairs then it might even be CAT5 spec.
>If the 8-core has individually twisted pairs, and one of these
>pairs is ADSL only, though not ideal, it should work.
>If it is straight untwisted wires think about putting
>the modem/router next to the master socket, then
>running CAT5 to the PC's location.

I don't know how I can tell if the cores are twisted or not, but I am
pretty sure they are not 'individually' twisted.

>Which raises a further question, how is the PC connected
>to the router, RJ45 patch lead, or wireless?

At the moment it is wireless as I can't get the ethernet cable to
work. I did have the router at the master socket until today
(connected wirelessly), but I decided to try it on the extension to
try a wired connection. This seems to be something of a disaster so
far!

"Scott" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:45:57 GMT, "Ato_Zee" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>On 6-Jun-2009, Scott <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> I have read the varous comments about the importance of using 'twisted
>>> pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a splitter
>>> frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core cable to an
>>> extension in my study/bedroom which has a split telephone/computer
>>> outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and three for telephone. I
>>> tried disconnecting the earth wire but the phone stopped ringing. I
>>> then plugged the router into that extension socket. Am I making a
>>> mistake?
>>
>>Splitter faceplate fitted to master socket is unclear, is it an
>>NTE5 master socket?
>
> Yes
>
>>It it is an NTE5 (many illustrations with a Google search) you
>>should, with the faceplate fitted, have a small RJ11 socket which
>>matches the RJ11 plugs on modem/router patch leads, plus
>>a standard BT style phone socket into which a phone can be
>>plugged.
>
> Yes
>
>>It's not clear how you have fitted the appropriate plugs onto
>>your 8-core, and whether the 8-core has 4 individually
>>twisted pairs.
>
> I was trying to keep it simple. The faceplate was modified before
> purchase (purchased on the internet). On the back are the original
> three positions for phone cables to which I have connected three cores
> of the eight core cable. There is a second connector on the back. I
> have connected two cores to that (and the same to the RJ11 (RJ45?)
> socket on the extension. The router does work so it must all be
> connected properly.
>
>>The unspecified possibilities are 8-straight wires in the 8-core,
>>or 4-twisted pairs which would also be 8-core, if the cores are
>>pairs then it might even be CAT5 spec.
>>If the 8-core has individually twisted pairs, and one of these
>>pairs is ADSL only, though not ideal, it should work.
>>If it is straight untwisted wires think about putting
>>the modem/router next to the master socket, then
>>running CAT5 to the PC's location.
>
> I don't know how I can tell if the cores are twisted or not, but I am
> pretty sure they are not 'individually' twisted.

With normal telephone cable the twist isn't always obvious unless
you strip > 20cm of sheath unlike cat CAT5 where the twist
is very obvious and would have been a better choice in
your application IMHO.
If it is proper modern telecoms 4 pair, the colours will be:

blue/white stripe
white/blue stripe

orange/white stripe
white/orange stripe

green/white stripe
white/green stripe

If the colours are as above, then at least you do have twisted pair.
The mutually twisted conducters are grouped in that list.

The importent thing is that you use one pair (say the blues) for
the phone 2-2 and 5-5 and another (say the orange) for the unfiltered ADSL

then you would use one wire of the remaining green pair for the bell 3-3
But personally I would not connect the bell wire at all in this application.

Does your installation differ in any way to the above?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:25:36 +0100, "Graham." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>
>"Scott" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:45:57 GMT, "Ato_Zee" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>On 6-Jun-2009, Scott <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have read the varous comments about the importance of using 'twisted
>>>> pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a splitter
>>>> frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core cable to an
>>>> extension in my study/bedroom which has a split telephone/computer
>>>> outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and three for telephone. I
>>>> tried disconnecting the earth wire but the phone stopped ringing. I
>>>> then plugged the router into that extension socket. Am I making a
>>>> mistake?
>>>
>>>Splitter faceplate fitted to master socket is unclear, is it an
>>>NTE5 master socket?
>>
>> Yes
>>
>>>It it is an NTE5 (many illustrations with a Google search) you
>>>should, with the faceplate fitted, have a small RJ11 socket which
>>>matches the RJ11 plugs on modem/router patch leads, plus
>>>a standard BT style phone socket into which a phone can be
>>>plugged.
>>
>> Yes
>>
>>>It's not clear how you have fitted the appropriate plugs onto
>>>your 8-core, and whether the 8-core has 4 individually
>>>twisted pairs.
>>
>> I was trying to keep it simple. The faceplate was modified before
>> purchase (purchased on the internet). On the back are the original
>> three positions for phone cables to which I have connected three cores
>> of the eight core cable. There is a second connector on the back. I
>> have connected two cores to that (and the same to the RJ11 (RJ45?)
>> socket on the extension. The router does work so it must all be
>> connected properly.
>>
>>>The unspecified possibilities are 8-straight wires in the 8-core,
>>>or 4-twisted pairs which would also be 8-core, if the cores are
>>>pairs then it might even be CAT5 spec.
>>>If the 8-core has individually twisted pairs, and one of these
>>>pairs is ADSL only, though not ideal, it should work.
>>>If it is straight untwisted wires think about putting
>>>the modem/router next to the master socket, then
>>>running CAT5 to the PC's location.
>>
>> I don't know how I can tell if the cores are twisted or not, but I am
>> pretty sure they are not 'individually' twisted.
>
>With normal telephone cable the twist isn't always obvious unless
>you strip > 20cm of sheath unlike cat CAT5 where the twist
>is very obvious and would have been a better choice in
>your application IMHO.
>If it is proper modern telecoms 4 pair, the colours will be:
>
>blue/white stripe
>white/blue stripe
>
>orange/white stripe
>white/orange stripe
>
>green/white stripe
>white/green stripe
>
>If the colours are as above, then at least you do have twisted pair.
>The mutually twisted conducters are grouped in that list.
>
>The importent thing is that you use one pair (say the blues) for
>the phone 2-2 and 5-5 and another (say the orange) for the unfiltered ADSL
>
>then you would use one wire of the remaining green pair for the bell 3-3
>But personally I would not connect the bell wire at all in this application.
>
>Does your installation differ in any way to the above?

That's pretty much it, except I used the browns for the adsl. I
connected the bell wire because one of the extension phones does not
ring without it. I could live without if it would make a difference
to the broadband performance (or even the acoustic quality of the
phone).

What I am trying to establish is whether it is better to put the
router in the hall and connect it wirelessly to the computer, or to
put it in the study/bedroom with an ethernet connection. The wireless
slows down the start up of the computer.

However, an added mystery today is the the router won't work with an
ethernet cable, only wirelessly. The computer (Windows 7, just to
confuse things further) says the network cable is unplugged when it
clearly is not. The cable is certified network cable (Category 5+) so
I assume it is the correct cable to use. I tried reversing its
direction but this did not work either. I suppose it could be faulty
but that seems a bit unlikely. I wonder if I am missing something.

Thanks for your help.

>
> That's pretty much it, except I used the browns for the adsl. I
> connected the bell wire because one of the extension phones does not
> ring without it. I could live without if it would make a difference
> to the broadband performance (or even the acoustic quality of the
> phone).
>
> What I am trying to establish is whether it is better to put the
> router in the hall and connect it wirelessly to the computer, or to
> put it in the study/bedroom with an ethernet connection. The wireless
> slows down the start up of the computer.
>
> However, an added mystery today is the the router won't work with an
> ethernet cable, only wirelessly. The computer (Windows 7, just to
> confuse things further) says the network cable is unplugged when it
> clearly is not. The cable is certified network cable (Category 5+) so
> I assume it is the correct cable to use. I tried reversing its
> direction but this did not work either. I suppose it could be faulty
> but that seems a bit unlikely. I wonder if I am missing something.
>
> Thanks for your help.

I would disconnect the bell wire and connect the non-ringing phone
with a spare ADSL filter. That may sound strange advice as all
your voice sockets are filtered centrally at the NTE5, but it is
a valid thing to do as the filter contains a capacitor that couples
one side of the line to pin 3 making it emulate a local master socket.

As fat the LAN problem, it could be the NIC in the computer,
or the router, or the cable of course.
I have an old Sweex router that works fine on all 4 ports, but only
if using a crossover cable between the router and NIC. Go figure.
--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

"Ato_Zee" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bhCWl.1367$(E-Mail Removed)2...
>
> On 6-Jun-2009, "Graham." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> As fat the LAN problem, it could be the NIC in the computer,
>> or the router, or the cable of course.
>
> First step is to buy a couple of CAT5 RJ45 patch cables, you
> will need them later if you use RJ45 faceplates in boxes at
> each end. Plus an always useful RJ45 X-over adapter, which
> is the X-over version of the coupler (which is useful if you
> want to join two patch cables to make a longer one).
> The couplers are quite cheap.
> Then put the router next to the PC and join with a
> patch cable. If that doesn't work (most RJ45 interfaces
> have lights - green or blue OK) put patch cables in
> PC and router, and try a X-over coupler between
> them. If you get a green or blue indication of a
> correct connection, you should be able to get
> to the routers control panel, know that the router and
> PC can talk, and whether you need a straight or X-over
> connection.
> Once things talk, you are in the home straight.
> It's just a case of two faceplates in boxes and
> deciding if and where you need the X-over
> (usually implemented between the faceplates,
> which is why they are colour coded for A and B ends).
> Faceplates are usually IDC for solid core CAT5.

Once I'd identified the problem, the work-around was obvious,
and in any case the switch I was using after the router was MDI / MDI-X
complient.
--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

"Kráftéé" <kraftee@b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
news:8smdnchpR_T5dLfXnZ2dnUVZ8q-(E-Mail Removed)...
> Scott wrote:
> | I suspect I am going to regret asking this question.
> |
> | I have read the varous comments about the importance of using
> | 'twisted pai' cable. I have the following set-up. I fitted a
> | splitter frontplate to the master socket. I then ran an 8 core
> | cable to an extension in my study/bedroom which has a split
> | telephone/computer outlet. Two of the cores are for broadband and
> | three for telephone. I tried disconnecting the earth wire but the
> | phone stopped ringing. I then plugged the router into that
> | extension socket. Am I making a mistake?
> |
> | Thanks
> | Scott
>
> Well your corrupting your DSL signal by placing a non filtered phone
> in line, but if it works.....
But he's not.
He's using a NTE5 faceplate and running filtered and non filtered pairs
to a remote BT/RJ11 plate using a single cable.


--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%