Very Basic Router Question

I have a brand new Belkin 802.11g router which is connected by cable
to one PC and wirelessly to a laptop.

90% of the time things work fine.

10% of the time, NEITHER computer will connect to the internet.
(connection is via a cable modem)

2 questions:

1) Is it safe to assume that a new router will typically function 100%
of the time or not work at all?

2) If there is a router problem, will the pc connected via cable also
lose it's connection?

thnx

PS: Roadrunner always tells me that there is no problem with the
signal they are sending me. (BIG surprise!!!)

Perhaps this belongs in another newsgroup, but is there a way for me
to help diagnose WHY I lose my connection and/or if it's a Roadrunner
problem, a cable modem problem, or a router problem???


phil6666

phil6666 wrote:
>
> I have a brand new Belkin 802.11g router which is connected by cable
> to one PC and wirelessly to a laptop.
>
> 90% of the time things work fine.
>
> 10% of the time, NEITHER computer will connect to the internet.
> (connection is via a cable modem)
>
> 2 questions:
>
> 1) Is it safe to assume that a new router will typically function 100%
> of the time or not work at all?

You'd need to work out if it really was the router.
Try plugging the cable from the modem directly into one PC's network
port and see if it is stable. If it isn't its your ISP.

If it is stable then your router is having troubles, so you'd need to
check for firmware upgrades and the like.

>
> 2) If there is a router problem, will the pc connected via cable also
> lose it's connection?

Perhaps. I had an issue awhile back with my wireless router where
wireless clients would keep dropping out, but wired would still remain
connected.

Seeing as you're losing connection on both however, if it *is* a router
issue then yes it will lose its connection (wait, haven't you already
lost connection on the wired one?).

>
> thnx
>
> PS: Roadrunner always tells me that there is no problem with the
> signal they are sending me. (BIG surprise!!!)
>

My ISP is twice as incompetent as yours..it happens.

> Perhaps this belongs in another newsgroup, but is there a way for me
> to help diagnose WHY I lose my connection and/or if it's a Roadrunner
> problem, a cable modem problem, or a router problem???

See above. That will at least eliminate the router from your
investigations

Thanks...I'll try a direct connection from my cable modem to my PC to
see if that's stable. Last time I tried that, I still didn't have any
internet access!!!

Roadrunner had me reboot my modem repeatedly & it was somewhat better
the next day, but it intermittently still loses it's connection.

I'm betting Roadrunner will say it's a modem or PC problem and I'm not
sure how to verify that!!??



On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:59:01 GMT, David Fairbrother
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>phil6666 wrote:
>>
>> I have a brand new Belkin 802.11g router which is connected by cable
>> to one PC and wirelessly to a laptop.
>>
>> 90% of the time things work fine.
>>
>> 10% of the time, NEITHER computer will connect to the internet.
>> (connection is via a cable modem)
>>
>> 2 questions:
>>
>> 1) Is it safe to assume that a new router will typically function 100%
>> of the time or not work at all?
>
>You'd need to work out if it really was the router.
>Try plugging the cable from the modem directly into one PC's network
>port and see if it is stable. If it isn't its your ISP.
>
>If it is stable then your router is having troubles, so you'd need to
>check for firmware upgrades and the like.
>
>>
>> 2) If there is a router problem, will the pc connected via cable also
>> lose it's connection?
>
>Perhaps. I had an issue awhile back with my wireless router where
>wireless clients would keep dropping out, but wired would still remain
>connected.
>
>Seeing as you're losing connection on both however, if it *is* a router
>issue then yes it will lose its connection (wait, haven't you already
>lost connection on the wired one?).
>
>>
>> thnx
>>
>> PS: Roadrunner always tells me that there is no problem with the
>> signal they are sending me. (BIG surprise!!!)
>>
>
>My ISP is twice as incompetent as yours..it happens.
>
>> Perhaps this belongs in another newsgroup, but is there a way for me
>> to help diagnose WHY I lose my connection and/or if it's a Roadrunner
>> problem, a cable modem problem, or a router problem???
>
>See above. That will at least eliminate the router from your
>investigations

phil6666 <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>I have a brand new Belkin 802.11g router which is connected by cable
>to one PC and wirelessly to a laptop.

Any particular model number Belkin router?

>90% of the time things work fine.
>10% of the time, NEITHER computer will connect to the internet.
>(connection is via a cable modem)

Ask Belkin for a 10% discound and you'll break even.

>1) Is it safe to assume that a new router will typically function 100%
>of the time or not work at all?

No. Bottom of the line routers are not 100% reliable. There have
been products that will stay up and functional literally forever.
There are also losers that hang and have to be rebooted (power cycled)
either regularly or erratically.

Your activities also have a big effect on stability. If you're using
a file sharing program (BiTorrent based), and have not bothered to
limit the available number of connections or traffic, chances are good
that you will crash the router. For example, each connection requires
allocating some buffer space. If you open too many connections, the
router runs out of buffer space. Same with table space for things
like the routeing table, ARP table, etc.

There are also internet based exploits that tend to crash routers. Try
the test at:
<http://www.pcflank.com/exploits.htm>
Most modern routers will pass just fine, but I have some old losers
that will hang.

>2) If there is a router problem, will the pc connected via cable also
>lose it's connection?

Yes. Everything goes through the router. If the router crashes or
hickups, every device connected to the router is also disconnected.
You can simulate what will happen by simply turning off the router.
Does the PC work? Probably not.

>PS: Roadrunner always tells me that there is no problem with the
>signal they are sending me. (BIG surprise!!!)

So, do your own testing. The cable modem probably has a build in web
page with diagnostic output. It will give signal levels and
connection statistics. The lights on the front panel will also give
you a clue. It could be a problem with the Belkin router, the cable
modem, or the RR service. Hard to tell from here.

>Perhaps this belongs in another newsgroup, but is there a way for me
>to help diagnose WHY I lose my connection and/or if it's a Roadrunner
>problem, a cable modem problem, or a router problem???

This is NOT a wireless problem. Try a Roadrunner support forum:
<http://www.dslreports.com/forum/cable,rr>


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

The router is a Belkin F5D7230-4

Not sure if it's a good model, but it was free....

Took your advice and first time I lost my internet connection, I
connected directly from the cable modem to my PC. NO IMPROVEMENT, so
I'll assume the router isn't the problem. (After 2 minutes,
everything was back to normal.)

I'll have to check into the diagnostics for my cable modem, plus I'll
run Ping Plotter on an on-going basis to chart my down times.

I'll also check out the Roadrunner forum you linked to.

Thanks!!!

PS: Any other suggestions????



On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 08:36:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>phil6666 <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
>>I have a brand new Belkin 802.11g router which is connected by cable
>>to one PC and wirelessly to a laptop.
>
>Any particular model number Belkin router?
>
>>90% of the time things work fine.
>>10% of the time, NEITHER computer will connect to the internet.
>>(connection is via a cable modem)
>
>Ask Belkin for a 10% discound and you'll break even.
>
>>1) Is it safe to assume that a new router will typically function 100%
>>of the time or not work at all?
>
>No. Bottom of the line routers are not 100% reliable. There have
>been products that will stay up and functional literally forever.
>There are also losers that hang and have to be rebooted (power cycled)
>either regularly or erratically.
>
>Your activities also have a big effect on stability. If you're using
>a file sharing program (BiTorrent based), and have not bothered to
>limit the available number of connections or traffic, chances are good
>that you will crash the router. For example, each connection requires
>allocating some buffer space. If you open too many connections, the
>router runs out of buffer space. Same with table space for things
>like the routeing table, ARP table, etc.
>
>There are also internet based exploits that tend to crash routers. Try
>the test at:
><http://www.pcflank.com/exploits.htm>
>Most modern routers will pass just fine, but I have some old losers
>that will hang.
>
>>2) If there is a router problem, will the pc connected via cable also
>>lose it's connection?
>
>Yes. Everything goes through the router. If the router crashes or
>hickups, every device connected to the router is also disconnected.
>You can simulate what will happen by simply turning off the router.
>Does the PC work? Probably not.
>
>>PS: Roadrunner always tells me that there is no problem with the
>>signal they are sending me. (BIG surprise!!!)
>
>So, do your own testing. The cable modem probably has a build in web
>page with diagnostic output. It will give signal levels and
>connection statistics. The lights on the front panel will also give
>you a clue. It could be a problem with the Belkin router, the cable
>modem, or the RR service. Hard to tell from here.
>
>>Perhaps this belongs in another newsgroup, but is there a way for me
>>to help diagnose WHY I lose my connection and/or if it's a Roadrunner
>>problem, a cable modem problem, or a router problem???
>
>This is NOT a wireless problem. Try a Roadrunner support forum:
><http://www.dslreports.com/forum/cable,rr>

phil6666 <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Took your advice and first time I lost my internet connection, I
> connected directly from the cable modem to my PC. NO IMPROVEMENT, so
> I'll assume the router isn't the problem. (After 2 minutes,
> everything was back to normal.)

Connecting your PC directly to the cable modem may or may not work. Some
cable modems, and the cable ISP, allow one MAC address to communicate. If
you change from a router to a PC, the cable modem might not let you connect
to the internet. You should try that swap when PC-router-cable is working,
so you know if it is a valid test.

In my case I did a "clone" of the MAC address of one PC to the router, so
either one can be connected to the cable modem, and the cable modem sees
the same MAC.

Another way this might work is to turn off the cable modem for about five
minutes before connecting the other device. But power cycling the modem
might defeat part of the test.

> I'll have to check into the diagnostics for my cable modem, plus I'll
> run Ping Plotter on an on-going basis to chart my down times.

http://192.168.100.1 should show something from the modem, although some
modems aren't very forthcoming with their logs, which are accessible on
hidden pages, but not from a link on the main page.

Look at the signal levels from time to time, to get a feel for what it
looks like when it's good.

I had an SMC router that didn't work well with WinXP, but was perfectly
consistent. I had several SMC of an earlier vintage that were unreliable
junk. I have had Linksys, DLink, and Netgear routers that just work for
months. I have more power failures in the house than unexplained outages
in the router.

The cable connections are dicey. I had some connector problems at a
grounding block on the roof, but MCHSI was able to tell me that the modem
was rebooting several times a day, and they eventually sorted that out.

--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

phil6666 <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>The router is a Belkin F5D7230-4
>Not sure if it's a good model, but it was free....

Free is good. I'm not thrilled with that model, but it's been known
to work. It's also hackable. See:
<http://www.efn.org/~rick/work/f5d7230/>

>Took your advice and first time I lost my internet connection, I
>connected directly from the cable modem to my PC. NO IMPROVEMENT, so
>I'll assume the router isn't the problem. (After 2 minutes,
>everything was back to normal.)

Sounds like you're losing your cable connection. After 2 minutes,
did it come back when you were connected directly to the modem, or to
the router? If the modem, then it's certainly a problem between the
cable ISP and your cable modem. However, it you move the CAT5 cable
back to the router, it's indeterminate.

>I'll have to check into the diagnostics for my cable modem, plus I'll
>run Ping Plotter on an on-going basis to chart my down times.

Good idea. MRTG works well for this.

>PS: Any other suggestions????

1. Collect enough simple information that you can convince RR
outsourced support (Stream International) that it's their problem. If
they try to pass the buck, get the trouble ticket number and mumble
something about posting the problem to one of the public RR forums,
which should get the attention of RR management.

2. Verify your cable signal level at the modem. If you're going
through a maze of splitters, couplers, and amplifiers, you may have
created the problem at your end. Also verify the signal level at the
point of entry to insure that the mice haven't chewed up the cable.
It's all too common.

3. Verify if the outages coincide with operating a TV or radio that
are plugged into the cable. Some of these belch local oscillator
radiation back into the cable which may be acting as ingres.

4. Verify that any and all splitters and couplers are 5-1000MHz. It's
the low end that's important. Anything higher than 5MHz will
attenuate the reverse channel and cause problems.

5. You can can get signal level statistics from your modem status
page. You didn't specify the maker or model number so I can't lookup
what's normal. Different models have somewhat different target
ranges.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks for the help!!

When I lost my internet connection, I quickly eliminated the router
and connected the PC directly to the cable modem.

Internet connection remained unavailable for 2 minutes, when it came
back without my doing anything.

I then put the router back in the loop and connection remained stable
as it still remains, 3 hours later.

I have an old Motorola SB4200 Surfboard modem and don't seem to be
able to find anything about how to check signal strength or
diagnostics, at least on their website!!??

You said:

>You can can get signal level statistics from your modem status page.

Not sure about that at all......

My setup has been rock-stable for years......both TV and internet, but
has had these intermittent problems for the last month or so. No
splitters or amplifiers.

I don't think it's on my end, but that's hard to prove.

(The last problem I had was intermittent log-in timeouts with my email
accounts. RoadRunner suggested that I do everything under the sun,
include reformatting my HD and calling in experts. Long story short,
our town had a power failure, once it was restored, I had even more
email problems that night, but the next day it was back to perfect.
NOTHING at all was changed on my end and somehow it was fixed!!!)

thnx


On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:31:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>phil6666 <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
>>The router is a Belkin F5D7230-4
>>Not sure if it's a good model, but it was free....
>
>Free is good. I'm not thrilled with that model, but it's been known
>to work. It's also hackable. See:
><http://www.efn.org/~rick/work/f5d7230/>
>
>>Took your advice and first time I lost my internet connection, I
>>connected directly from the cable modem to my PC. NO IMPROVEMENT, so
>>I'll assume the router isn't the problem. (After 2 minutes,
>>everything was back to normal.)
>
>Sounds like you're losing your cable connection. After 2 minutes,
>did it come back when you were connected directly to the modem, or to
>the router? If the modem, then it's certainly a problem between the
>cable ISP and your cable modem. However, it you move the CAT5 cable
>back to the router, it's indeterminate.
>
>>I'll have to check into the diagnostics for my cable modem, plus I'll
>>run Ping Plotter on an on-going basis to chart my down times.
>
>Good idea. MRTG works well for this.
>
>>PS: Any other suggestions????
>
>1. Collect enough simple information that you can convince RR
>outsourced support (Stream International) that it's their problem. If
>they try to pass the buck, get the trouble ticket number and mumble
>something about posting the problem to one of the public RR forums,
>which should get the attention of RR management.
>
>2. Verify your cable signal level at the modem. If you're going
>through a maze of splitters, couplers, and amplifiers, you may have
>created the problem at your end. Also verify the signal level at the
>point of entry to insure that the mice haven't chewed up the cable.
>It's all too common.
>
>3. Verify if the outages coincide with operating a TV or radio that
>are plugged into the cable. Some of these belch local oscillator
>radiation back into the cable which may be acting as ingres.
>
>4. Verify that any and all splitters and couplers are 5-1000MHz. It's
>the low end that's important. Anything higher than 5MHz will
>attenuate the reverse channel and cause problems.
>
>5. You can can get signal level statistics from your modem status
>page. You didn't specify the maker or model number so I can't lookup
>what's normal. Different models have somewhat different target
>ranges.

phil6666 <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>When I lost my internet connection, I quickly eliminated the router
>and connected the PC directly to the cable modem.
>
>Internet connection remained unavailable for 2 minutes, when it came
>back without my doing anything.
>
>I then put the router back in the loop and connection remained stable
>as it still remains, 3 hours later.

That's totally useless. If you didn't get a connection at any time
when connected directly to the modem, you haven't eliminated the
router as a possible problem. Since the connection is work right now,
let's try it. Turn OFF the modem and then turn it back on. Connect
the CAT5 cable from the PC to the modem. Run:
start -> run -> cmd <enter>
ipconfig
Do you have a routeable IP address? Or does it say 169.254.xxx.xxx?
If it says 0.0.0.0 or 192.168.xxx.xxx, then run:
ipconfig /release
(wait a few seconds)
ipconfig /renew
ipconfig
Now do you have an IP address?

Note that I'm assuming that you're NOT using the USB port.

>I have an old Motorola SB4200 Surfboard modem and don't seem to be
>able to find anything about how to check signal strength or
>diagnostics, at least on their website!!??

Umm, try again at:
<http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/support/default.asp?supportSection=DiscontinuedProducts>
Search for the SB4200 section. It should be in the user guide or FAQ.
Well, maybe not. Try this:
1. Setup your PC for a:
static IP address of 192.168.100.25
gateway = blank
netmask = 255.255.255.0
2. Try:
ping 192.168.100.1
If that works, try:
http://192.168.100.1
According to various web site, the SB4200 has an internal web page at
this IP address.

This is interesting:
<http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14686588?hilite=sb4200>
<http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15652860?hilite=sb4200>
It's not the first flakey SB4200 that someone found that has had
problems.


>>You can can get signal level statistics from your modem status page.
>Not sure about that at all......

I am. Google finds numerous articles mentioning statisitics and the
SB4200.

>My setup has been rock-stable for years......both TV and internet, but
>has had these intermittent problems for the last month or so. No
>splitters or amplifiers.

Yeah right. Assumption, the mother of all screwups. Kindly check
your connections, even if you think they're perfect.

>I don't think it's on my end, but that's hard to prove.

Actually, it's fairly easy by substituting different hardware and
taking the house wiring out of the puzzle. Can you run a coax cable
from the SB4200 directly to the cable point of entry?

>(The last problem I had was intermittent log-in timeouts with my email
>accounts. RoadRunner suggested that I do everything under the sun,
>include reformatting my HD and calling in experts. Long story short,
>our town had a power failure, once it was restored, I had even more
>email problems that night, but the next day it was back to perfect.
>NOTHING at all was changed on my end and somehow it was fixed!!!)

The first step to solving a problem is to blame someone. When nobody
else is available, most large support disorganizations will blame the
customer. That puts you in the position of proving to them that
you're NOT the problem. That's rather difficult to do.

What I do is specifically request to talk to a different support
person that is not hung up on blaming the customer. That always gets
the attention of the pit boss at the support pool. A change of
support person always implies a disatisfied and irate customer. Things
usually move more smoothly after that.

However, don't go blaming someone in India for problems at RR. In
many cases, India does not have the information or the diagnostic
tools to determine the cause of system problems. They also tend to be
the last ones to be told that a system problem exists or is even being
worked on.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:56:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>>When I lost my internet connection, I quickly eliminated the router
>>and connected the PC directly to the cable modem.
>>
>>Internet connection remained unavailable for 2 minutes, when it came
>>back without my doing anything.
>>
>>I then put the router back in the loop and connection remained stable
>>as it still remains, 3 hours later.
>
>That's totally useless. If you didn't get a connection at any time
>when connected directly to the modem, you haven't eliminated the
>router as a possible problem. Since the connection is work right now,
>let's try it. Turn OFF the modem and then turn it back on. Connect
>the CAT5 cable from the PC to the modem. Run:
> start -> run -> cmd <enter>
> ipconfig
>Do you have a routeable IP address? Or does it say 169.254.xxx.xxx?

Windows IP Configuration

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 76.180.184.xxx

IPv6 Address. . . . . . . . . . . :
2001:0:4136:e38a:30e4:394d:b34b:xxxx

Is that good????

.................................................. .................................................. .....

>If it says 0.0.0.0 or 192.168.xxx.xxx, then run:
> ipconfig /release
> (wait a few seconds)
> ipconfig /renew
> ipconfig
>Now do you have an IP address?
>
>Note that I'm assuming that you're NOT using the USB port.

Not using USB port.

.................................................. .................................................. .....

>2. Try:
> ping 192.168.100.1
>If that works, try:
> http://192.168.100.1
>According to various web site, the SB4200 has an internal web page at
>this IP address.

Downstream Value
Frequency 711000000 Hz Locked
Signal to Noise Ratio 37 dB
Power Level -1 dBmV


Upstream Value
Channel ID 15
Frequency 38000000 Hz Ranged
Power Level 43 dBmV


Not sure how to interpret any of this, but my connection has been
stable for 6+ hours which is not uncommon, but it might go flakey
anytime soon and not surprise me.......

thnx