Can you trust PlusNet

PlusNet have been shaping/throttling packages that they have sold as
unthrottled for over 14 days and have only just informed their customers of
this fact.
Even though their own T&C state:

20 How this Contract can be changed

20.1 We may change this Contract, including our charges, at any time. We
will give you at least 14 days notice of any changes before they take
effect. As explained in paragraph 19, you can end this contract by giving us
immediate notice in this 14 day period if we increase our charges or change
the conditions of this Contract to your detriment.


The following has been posted in the PlusNet newsgroups:

Dear Customer,

We would like to explain the way that our broadband products are
provided; as information published yesterday (Wed July 27th) has brought
a number of questions and concerns for some customers.

Since March we have offered a choice of broadband services, including
Broadband Plus and Broadband Premier. There are two main differences
between these services. Firstly, they are managed at different levels of
contention; Premier is 30:1 and Plus is 50:1. This means that customers
on Premier will see a superior and faster service, especially at peak
times, when compared to Plus.

The second difference is our approach to managing file-sharing.
Broadband Plus is designed for customers that want a fast experience for
email and web surfing. To maintain our market-leading price-point of
£14.99, we manage the costs of file-sharing traffic on Plus, by limiting
the amount of bandwidth that customers can use. This means that
file-sharing download speeds on Plus are significantly reduced,
especially at busy times, and priority is given to web surfing and
email.

Broadband Premier offers fast access to all types of services, including
file-sharing. In March, we described Broadband Premier as a "clean
service", with no traffic shaping. This was correct at the time and we
have not been shaping traffic on Premier until very recently.

We would like to confirm that within the last two weeks we have chosen
to apply a low level of shaping to file-sharing traffic on Broadband
Premier. We have done this to positively improve the overall peak-time
experience for Premier customers.

The benefit for all Broadband Premier customers is an improvement in
peak-time experience for email, surfing and gaming. The vast majority of
Broadband Premier customers will have noticed no negative difference
following the changes we made two weeks ago.

The service has always been a contended service and there will always be
some slowdown on some applications at peak times. The shaping we have
implemented will ensure that this is limited to file-sharing
downloads.

If you are a typical customer on Broadband Premier there is minimum
impact, at worst you will see a small percentage decrease in the speed
of file-sharing at peak times. For example, a file that would normally
take an hour may take an additional five minutes to complete. In
contrast, on Broadband Plus this same file could take several hours,
particularly through peak hours.

We are aware that some Broadband Premier customers may have seen a
greater reduction in file-sharing performance than we had anticipated.
We believe this is linked to a network failure in the last 48 hours that
has since been resolved. If any Premier customers are still experiencing
very slow file-sharing speeds you should report a fault.

We aim to be the best value ISP and we believe that broadband at £14.99
and £21.99 offers great value for our customers. We don't spend millions
of pounds on advertising; we're reliant on our customers recognising the
great value and excellent service we provide. We live and die by our
customers recommending our services.

We should have told our customers about this change before we
implemented it, and I would like to sincerely apologise to all of our
customers for this breakdown in communications.

In order to offer great value and great performance, we will make
changes and improvements to our services. Before we make changes and
improvements from now on, I would like to personally assure customers
that we will always be as open, honest and upfront as possible.


Yours faithfully,

Neil Armstrong
Head of Marketing, PlusNet


Would you trust this ISP?




Pete M Williams

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:11:28 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
<news:42e8f58d$0$28637$(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> PlusNet have been shaping/throttling packages that they have sold as
> unthrottled for over 14 days and have only just informed their customers of
> this fact.
> Even though their own T&C state:
>
<snip>

>
> Would you trust this ISP?

Why not?

BTW, changes to the T&C are irrelevant to them implementing this, because
it isn't a change to the T&C.

This is a minor technical change. IT would have been more courteous of them
to have told people *before* implementing, rather than afterwards, but I
don't see how they are breaching any of the T&C.

--
Alex Heney
Global Villager
Want a taste of religion? Bite a minister.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTPLUSDOTcom

"Pete M Williams" <postmaster@localhost> wrote:


> Would you trust this ISP?

That seems pretty up front, with an apology.

--
Patrick (Durham UK)
PCRRN Internet Services
Web Design for the Community
http://www.pcrrn.co.uk
Do not reply direct, email via website above.
"There are 10 types of people in the world - those that know binary and
those that don't."
__________________________________________________ ___________________

"Alex Heney" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:1xc2aqd6ee5ea$.(E-Mail Removed).. .
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:11:28 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
>
> Why not?
>
> BTW, changes to the T&C are irrelevant to them implementing this, because
> it isn't a change to the T&C.
>

You have read the what support have been telling you and as they would have
hoped you have believed it then.
The Service as mentioned in the T&C and being part of the T&C has changed.
So it has been stated to me, legally.

1 Definitions

2 The Service

2.1 The Service gives you access to the Internet and/or a range of Internet
content, services (including helpdesk services) and applications as
described here ( http://www.plus.net/) and will be provided at the Premises
we agree with you.

The following was taken from PlusNets site yesterday. Where the link above
pointed:

"If you regulary file-share and download, we recommend Broadband Premier.
With equal priority given to all internet services, including Peer-2-Peer,
Broadband Premier is ideal for heavier users. "


The T&C which is the legally binding contract that both you and I have with
PlusNet stated that "equal priority given to all internet services,
including Peer-2-Peer"
This has now changed (well it changed about 14 days ago but PlusNet did not
see fit to inform us)

It also states:

20 How this Contract can be changed

20.1 We may change this Contract, including our charges, at any time. We
will give you at least 14 days notice of any changes before they take
effect.



Now how can this not be a change to the T&C Alex?



> This is a minor technical change. IT would have been more courteous of
> them
> to have told people *before* implementing, rather than afterwards, but I
> don't see how they are breaching any of the T&C.
>


See above and explain your/Plusnets thinking on this.
I can tell you now that PlusNet appear to be on very thin ice on this one as
they have got a lot of peoples backs up.
There are complaints already been looked at by lawyers for definite and
according to others the ASA and Trading Standards.

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:59:20 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
<news:42e900bf$0$28611$(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> "Alex Heney" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:1xc2aqd6ee5ea$.(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:11:28 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> BTW, changes to the T&C are irrelevant to them implementing this, because
>> it isn't a change to the T&C.
>>
>
> You have read the what support have been telling you and as they would have
> hoped you have believed it then.
> The Service as mentioned in the T&C and being part of the T&C has changed.
> So it has been stated to me, legally.
>
> 1 Definitions
>
> 2 The Service
>
> 2.1 The Service gives you access to the Internet and/or a range of Internet
> content, services (including helpdesk services) and applications as
> described here ( http://www.plus.net/) and will be provided at the Premises
> we agree with you.
>
> The following was taken from PlusNets site yesterday. Where the link above
> pointed:
>

It just points to the member centre now.

> "If you regulary file-share and download, we recommend Broadband Premier.
> With equal priority given to all internet services, including Peer-2-Peer,
> Broadband Premier is ideal for heavier users. "
>
> The T&C which is the legally binding contract that both you and I have with
> PlusNet stated that "equal priority given to all internet services,
> including Peer-2-Peer"
> This has now changed (well it changed about 14 days ago but PlusNet did not
> see fit to inform us)
>
> It also states:
>
> 20 How this Contract can be changed
>
> 20.1 We may change this Contract, including our charges, at any time. We
> will give you at least 14 days notice of any changes before they take
> effect.
>
> Now how can this not be a change to the T&C Alex?
>

Because it also says (section 8) that
"8.2 We may have to alter code or access numbers or technical
specifications associated with the Service for operational reasons. Before
we do this, we will give you as much notice as possible."

Admittedly, the "we will give you as much notice as possible" doesn't seem
to have been followed. But that is a minor breach, not a change.

But I have to say that I do not think the exact technical specification is
actually described anywhere that can reasonably be considered part of the
T&C.

I think what you point at is advertising blurb (which should be made
accurate, and isn't), rather than part of the T&C.


>> This is a minor technical change. IT would have been more courteous of
>> them
>> to have told people *before* implementing, rather than afterwards, but I
>> don't see how they are breaching any of the T&C.
>>
>
> See above and explain your/Plusnets thinking on this.
> I can tell you now that PlusNet appear to be on very thin ice on this one as
> they have got a lot of peoples backs up.
> There are complaints already been looked at by lawyers for definite and
> according to others the ASA and Trading Standards.

The ASA may well give them a rap over the knuckles for the statement above.

No other action is likely (IMO) to succeed, and anything the ASA do will
not affect the service provided, it will only make them change the
advertising.

By leaving that description up, they are guilty of false advertising, I
think. But nothing more.

--
Alex Heney
Global Villager
Recovery program for excessive talkers: On-and-on-Anon.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTPLUSDOTcom

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:59:20 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
<news:42e900bf$0$28611$(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> "Alex Heney" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:1xc2aqd6ee5ea$.(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:11:28 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> BTW, changes to the T&C are irrelevant to them implementing this, because
>> it isn't a change to the T&C.
>>
>
> You have read the what support have been telling you and as they would have
> hoped you have believed it then.

Nope.

All I have read on this subject is what you just posted.

--
Alex Heney
Global Villager
Ultimate office automation: networked coffee.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTPLUSDOTcom

"Alex Heney" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:59:20 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
> <news:42e900bf$0$28611$(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> "Alex Heney" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:1xc2aqd6ee5ea$.(E-Mail Removed).. .
>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:11:28 +0100, Pete M Williams in message
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>>
>>> BTW, changes to the T&C are irrelevant to them implementing this,
>>> because
>>> it isn't a change to the T&C.
>>>
>>
>> You have read the what support have been telling you and as they would
>> have
>> hoped you have believed it then.
>> The Service as mentioned in the T&C and being part of the T&C has
>> changed.
>> So it has been stated to me, legally.
>>
>> 1 Definitions
>>
>> 2 The Service
>>
>> 2.1 The Service gives you access to the Internet and/or a range of
>> Internet
>> content, services (including helpdesk services) and applications as
>> described here ( http://www.plus.net/) and will be provided at the
>> Premises
>> we agree with you.
>>
>> The following was taken from PlusNets site yesterday. Where the link
>> above
>> pointed:
>>
>
> It just points to the member centre now.


I does not for me!
It takes me to a page where you can select either Residential or Business
products offered by PlusNet.
Yesterday if you selected Residential and selected Broadband Plus it stated:

"If you regularly file-share and download, we recommend Broadband Premier.
With equal priority given to all internet services, including Peer-2-Peer,
Broadband Premier is ideal for heavier users."

Now it says:

"If you regularly file-share and download, take a look at Broadband Premier.
With a 30:1 PlusNet network contention, Broadband Premier offers a premium
service and is suitable for Internet enthusiasts and families."

Even though the shaping was implemented about 14 days ago.


>Because it also says (section 8) that
>"8.2 We may have to alter code or access numbers or technical
>specifications associated with the Service for operational reasons. Before
>we do this, we will give you as much notice as possible."

>Admittedly, the "we will give you as much notice as possible" doesn't seem
>to have been followed. But that is a minor breach, not a change.

Sorry, but you cannot have two sections of a contract that contradict each
other and that is what you are trying here.
In section 2 they state what the service is.
This has changed because of the different wording on the pages that section
2 links to. These linked pages are part of the T&C due to their inclusion in
the T&C.
But to implement these changes section 20 states that they have to give 14
days notice (before not after).

"Pete M Williams" <postmaster@localhost> wrote in message
news:42e8f58d$0$28637$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> Would you trust this ISP?
>

It gets better.
Seems that they were over throttling around 2000 customers (for how long,
god only knows)
They also "wrongly" blocked ports that subsequently caused a detrimental
effect to the customers that used IRC, a program used for P2P communications
amongst other things.

Dear customers,

As a follow-up to last night's update on how we manage our network, I'd like
to keep you abreast of some issues that have arisen.

Following customer feedback and some detailed investigations that our
engineering team have undertaken, it has come to light that a small number
of Broadband Premier customers have been assigned an incorrect traffic
shaping profile. This has meant those customers are seeing significant
reduction in file-sharing download speeds.

We believe this has affected around 2,000 of our Broadband Premier
customers. Where we have assigned an incorrect profile we will be amending
this during the next 24 hours and those customers should see a noticeable
improvement. We applied a fix to some network equipment this morning and
will apply further upgrades tomorrow morning.

The vast majority of Broadband Premier customers should only be seeing a
small percentage decrease in file-sharing speeds during busy hours.

Earlier in the week we also posted a security update for customers
announcing that we were blocking an increased number of ports to protect our
customers. Following customer feedback that this was negatively impacting
some IRC applications we will be removing those port blocks from Broadband
Premier customers during the next 24 hours. As these will be removed we'd
like to remind customers to ensure they have adequate security measures in
place.

I would like to apologise to customers for any inconvenience this has caused
you. We realise that the changes we have made has caused some angst for some
of our customers. I would ask customers to be patient with us and understand
that we are at the leading edge of issues that are facing the whole
industry - that is how to manage services to give great performance and
great value, while introducing line speed increases and changing traffic
profiles as high-bandwidth applications become more popular.

Yours faithfully,

Neil Armstrong
Head of Marketing, PlusNet

In article <42e8f58d$0$28637$(E-Mail Removed)>,
postmaster@localhost says...

> Would you trust this ISP?

Nope, but then, I wouldn't move from using them either as they are
supplying what is a perfect for my needs service.

By the same token, that very nice man, Richard Branson, wouldn't get an
ounce of my trust either.

In business, trust no-one. Profit is all mighty.

In article <42e900bf$0$28611$(E-Mail Removed)>,
postmaster@localhost says...


> I can tell you now that PlusNet appear to be on very thin ice on this one

So challenge it, legally. In other words, put up, or shut up. Usenet is
way too full of this Plusnet crap.