Bounced email

At least one of my regular email correspondents (in Goa, India) has
been getting his emails to me bounced back. Here's a self-explanatory
note from him that I *did* get about one example:

====================
Dear Terry,

This is what I get in the detail of the rejected message .

Original-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
Final-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0 (Remote SMTP server has rejected address)
Remote-MTA: dns;smtp9.systems.pipex.net (zone.systems.pipex.net ESMTP
Postfix)
Diagnostic-code: smtp;504 <mum1mr1-a-fixed>: Helo command rejected:
need fully-qualified hostname
====================

FWIW, I have Agent 1.94 configured to send email messages with SMTP,
using an Email Server that Pipex specified, namely:
smtpauth.dial.pipex.com
This change was made after I switched from DialUp to BT Broadband, and
appears to have been working OK. The bouncing may be unrelated to the
SMTP address; I mention it just in case.

Can anyone offer any suggestions please, or further steps to isolate
nature of problem? I've also asked my friend to check with his ISP.
But of course, I'm not confident I will get any replies from him!

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK



Terry Pinnell

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:53:36 +0100, Terry Pinnell
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>At least one of my regular email correspondents (in Goa, India) has
>been getting his emails to me bounced back. Here's a self-explanatory
>note from him that I *did* get about one example:
>
>====================
>Dear Terry,
>
>This is what I get in the detail of the rejected message .
>
>Original-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
>Final-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
>Action: failed
>Status: 5.0.0 (Remote SMTP server has rejected address)
>Remote-MTA: dns;smtp9.systems.pipex.net (zone.systems.pipex.net ESMTP
>Postfix)
>Diagnostic-code: smtp;504 <mum1mr1-a-fixed>: Helo command rejected:
>need fully-qualified hostname
>====================
>
>FWIW, I have Agent 1.94 configured to send email messages with SMTP,
>using an Email Server that Pipex specified, namely:
>smtpauth.dial.pipex.com
>This change was made after I switched from DialUp to BT Broadband, and
>appears to have been working OK. The bouncing may be unrelated to the
>SMTP address; I mention it just in case.
>
>Can anyone offer any suggestions please, or further steps to isolate
>nature of problem? I've also asked my friend to check with his ISP.
>But of course, I'm not confident I will get any replies from him!

Some radom thoughts that *might* lead to a solution.

Based on the your statement "after I switched from DialUp to BT
Broadband" I have to **assume** that your Internet connection is via
BT Broadband but that you wish to use your former email address with
Pipex where replies are sent to.

Your email climent would be setup with the POP3 server of Pipex but
your SMTP entry *has* to be the one that is given by BTBroadband. I
think that is smtp.btbroadband.com

*ADDITIONALLY* you *have* to contact BTBroadband to have your Pipex
address registered with them if you use the Pipex email address as the
one that you wish replies to be sent to you.

You can always test if things are working out OK by simply sending an
email to yourself or if using Xp the built in test facility.

DAVID BRADLEY

David Bradley

Terry Pinnell <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> At least one of my regular email correspondents (in Goa, India) has
> been getting his emails to me bounced back. Here's a self-explanatory
> note from him that I *did* get about one example:
>
> ====================
> Dear Terry,
>
> This is what I get in the detail of the rejected message .
>
> Original-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
> Final-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.0.0 (Remote SMTP server has rejected address)
> Remote-MTA: dns;smtp9.systems.pipex.net (zone.systems.pipex.net ESMTP
> Postfix)
> Diagnostic-code: smtp;504 <mum1mr1-a-fixed>: Helo command rejected:
> need fully-qualified hostname
> ====================

Well, if only *his* emails to you are being bounced, your config has
nothing to with the problem, unless he's trying to reply to an address
with a type in it etc..

The way I would read the bounce, is that he sends the email, and his smtp
server connects to the pipex mail server and HELOs itself as something
other than a non FQDN (mum1mr1-a-fixed rather than mum1mr1-a-
fixed.ispname.com).

It's quite a common tactic to block spam, many viruses/trojans simple
HELO as an IP address, or "localhost".

Ironic really as we blocked some mail from 123reg yesterday as they
HELO'd as localhost which is not a FQDN.. and who have they just been
taken over by :-)

regards,
Paul
--
paul <at> spamcop.net

David Bradley wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:53:36 +0100, Terry Pinnell
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>At least one of my regular email correspondents (in Goa, India) has
>>been getting his emails to me bounced back. Here's a self-explanatory
>>note from him that I *did* get about one example:
>>
>>====================
>>Dear Terry,
>>
>>This is what I get in the detail of the rejected message .
>>
>>Original-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
>>Final-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
>>Action: failed
>>Status: 5.0.0 (Remote SMTP server has rejected address)
>>Remote-MTA: dns;smtp9.systems.pipex.net (zone.systems.pipex.net ESMTP
>>Postfix)
>>Diagnostic-code: smtp;504 <mum1mr1-a-fixed>: Helo command rejected:
>>need fully-qualified hostname
>>====================
>>
>>FWIW, I have Agent 1.94 configured to send email messages with SMTP,
>>using an Email Server that Pipex specified, namely:
>>smtpauth.dial.pipex.com
>>This change was made after I switched from DialUp to BT Broadband, and
>>appears to have been working OK. The bouncing may be unrelated to the
>>SMTP address; I mention it just in case.
>>
>>Can anyone offer any suggestions please, or further steps to isolate
>>nature of problem? I've also asked my friend to check with his ISP.
>>But of course, I'm not confident I will get any replies from him!
>
>
> Some radom thoughts that *might* lead to a solution.
>
> Based on the your statement "after I switched from DialUp to BT
> Broadband" I have to **assume** that your Internet connection is via
> BT Broadband but that you wish to use your former email address with
> Pipex where replies are sent to.
>
> Your email climent would be setup with the POP3 server of Pipex but
> your SMTP entry *has* to be the one that is given by BTBroadband. I
> think that is smtp.btbroadband.com
>
> *ADDITIONALLY* you *have* to contact BTBroadband to have your Pipex
> address registered with them if you use the Pipex email address as the
> one that you wish replies to be sent to you.
>
> You can always test if things are working out OK by simply sending an
> email to yourself or if using Xp the built in test facility.
>
> DAVID BRADLEY
>
> David Bradley
>


BT Broadband do not have an SMTP server. There was an unofficial
arrangement that allowed customers to use BTopenworld's systems, but as
these have been moved to yahoo, and authentication is now mandatory,
this is no longer possible (unless you have a BTinternet / openworld
username).

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:16:44 +0100, Martyn Dewar
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>David Bradley wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:53:36 +0100, Terry Pinnell
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At least one of my regular email correspondents (in Goa, India) has
>>>been getting his emails to me bounced back. Here's a self-explanatory
>>>note from him that I *did* get about one example:
>>>
>>>====================
>>>Dear Terry,
>>>
>>>This is what I get in the detail of the rejected message .
>>>
>>>Original-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
>>>Final-recipient: rfc822;(E-Mail Removed)
>>>Action: failed
>>>Status: 5.0.0 (Remote SMTP server has rejected address)
>>>Remote-MTA: dns;smtp9.systems.pipex.net (zone.systems.pipex.net ESMTP
>>>Postfix)
>>>Diagnostic-code: smtp;504 <mum1mr1-a-fixed>: Helo command rejected:
>>>need fully-qualified hostname
>>>====================
>>>
>>>FWIW, I have Agent 1.94 configured to send email messages with SMTP,
>>>using an Email Server that Pipex specified, namely:
>>>smtpauth.dial.pipex.com
>>>This change was made after I switched from DialUp to BT Broadband, and
>>>appears to have been working OK. The bouncing may be unrelated to the
>>>SMTP address; I mention it just in case.
>>>
>>>Can anyone offer any suggestions please, or further steps to isolate
>>>nature of problem? I've also asked my friend to check with his ISP.
>>>But of course, I'm not confident I will get any replies from him!
>>
>>
>> Some radom thoughts that *might* lead to a solution.
>>
>> Based on the your statement "after I switched from DialUp to BT
>> Broadband" I have to **assume** that your Internet connection is via
>> BT Broadband but that you wish to use your former email address with
>> Pipex where replies are sent to.
>>
>> Your email climent would be setup with the POP3 server of Pipex but
>> your SMTP entry *has* to be the one that is given by BTBroadband. I
>> think that is smtp.btbroadband.com
>>
>> *ADDITIONALLY* you *have* to contact BTBroadband to have your Pipex
>> address registered with them if you use the Pipex email address as the
>> one that you wish replies to be sent to you.
>>
>> You can always test if things are working out OK by simply sending an
>> email to yourself or if using Xp the built in test facility.
>>
>> DAVID BRADLEY
>>
>> David Bradley
>>
>
>
>BT Broadband do not have an SMTP server. There was an unofficial
>arrangement that allowed customers to use BTopenworld's systems, but as
>these have been moved to yahoo, and authentication is now mandatory,
>this is no longer possible (unless you have a BTinternet / openworld
>username).

You are quite right! The number of flavours that BT uses to provide a
Broadband service simply muddies the water at times and I have fallen
into the trap of writing about a combination that would not work.

I was drawing on the experiences of two other connections that I made,
1) BTConnect and 2) BTBroadband in combination with previously
established account with BT Openworld, which is not relevant to the
original OPs problem.

Maybe a correct solution has been previously posted, but IMHO it is
probably necessary to source an SMTP service elsewhere in which case
much of what I said previously would tend to apply.

DAVID BRADLEY

David Bradley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

Thanks David. Comments inline.

>Some radom thoughts that *might* lead to a solution.
>
>Based on the your statement "after I switched from DialUp to BT
>Broadband" I have to **assume** that your Internet connection is via
>BT Broadband but that you wish to use your former email address with
>Pipex where replies are sent to.

Correct.

>Your email climent would be setup with the POP3 server of Pipex but
>your SMTP entry *has* to be the one that is given by BTBroadband. I
>think that is smtp.btbroadband.com

No. As David points out, I could not get any help on this from
BTBroadband.

>*ADDITIONALLY* you *have* to contact BTBroadband to have your Pipex
>address registered with them if you use the Pipex email address as the
>one that you wish replies to be sent to you.

No. Maybe at some time in the past, but not for me. When I discovered
that I had chosen a broadband service that gave me neither news nor
email continuity, I had to make special arrangements. While I foind I
could sustain my incoming ('POP3') account, my SMTP one used with dial
up no longer worked. Eventually Pipex suggested I try the one I
specified in my OP, and it works OK.

>You can always test if things are working out OK by simply sending an
>email to yourself

As I said, this is a selective problem, not universal. Emails to many
others (including myself) appear to get through OK.

BTW, although I invariably do that self-mail test, as it's so
trivially easy, I don't know how much confidence I can have in
extrapolating its success. Given that both outgoing and incoming
emails use the same (Pipex) servers, I wouldn't think it proves
much...

>or if using Xp the built in test facility.

Yes, I have XP. Please amplify on the 'test facility' you mean.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

David Bradley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>You are quite right! The number of flavours that BT uses to provide a
>Broadband service simply muddies the water at times and I have fallen
>into the trap of writing about a combination that would not work.
>
>I was drawing on the experiences of two other connections that I made,
>1) BTConnect and 2) BTBroadband in combination with previously
>established account with BT Openworld, which is not relevant to the
>original OPs problem.
>
>Maybe a correct solution has been previously posted, but IMHO it is
>probably necessary to source an SMTP service elsewhere in which case
>much of what I said previously would tend to apply.

Yes, see my earlier post, sent before I saw this subsequent reply fro
you.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

Paul Hutchings <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Well, if only *his* emails to you are being bounced, your config has
>nothing to with the problem, unless he's trying to reply to an address
>with a type in it etc..
>
>The way I would read the bounce, is that he sends the email, and his smtp
>server connects to the pipex mail server and HELOs itself as something
>other than a non FQDN (mum1mr1-a-fixed rather than mum1mr1-a-
>fixed.ispname.com).
>
>It's quite a common tactic to block spam, many viruses/trojans simple
>HELO as an IP address, or "localhost".

Thanks, Paul. Internet communications remains a black art to me, so
terms like HELO and FQDN leave me cold. But the gist of your reply
('it's down to him, not you') squares exactly with another response I
had elsewhere. I'll copy it below for interest. (The remaining problem
of establishing whether this really *is* the cause is hampered by the
problem itself. Rather like the familiar Catch 22: "Can you all hear
me at the back?"!)

>Ironic really as we blocked some mail from 123reg yesterday as they
>HELO'd as localhost which is not a FQDN.. and who have they just been
>taken over by :-)

I dearly wish I had the technical nouse to grasp the irony <g>.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK
====================

Reply from Ralph Fox
--------------------

Your friend is probably uploading the email to his ISP's mail
server to be sent to you, like this diagram [best viewed using
a fixed pitch font]


+--------+ +----------+ +--------+ +-------+
| | | Friend's | | Your | | |
| Friend |---->| mail |---->| mail |---->| You |
| | | server | | server | | |
+--------+ +----------+ +--------+ +-------+


_If_ this is correct [check this with your friend!], then the
problem is as follows


1. Your ISP's mail server requires that the friend's mail
server should give it's (friend's mail server's)
fully-qualified domain name (e.g. "mta4.isp.in") when
the friend's mail server connects to your ISP's mail
server to send the email.

As to why your ISP's mail server requires this, it is to
cut down on spam.

• Almost all bona fide mail servers do give their
fully-qualified domain name when sending email.

• On the other hand, a lot of spammers will send spam
directly from their PC to your mail server [see #3],
bypassing the spammer's own mail server. Often the
spammer's PC will _not_ give a valid fully-qualified
domain name.


2. However, your friend's mail server would seem to be a
rare exception to the mail server rule. It seems that
your friend's mail server is _not_ giving a valid
fully-qualified domain name.

Because of this, your ISP's mail server refuses to
accept the email, believing it to be from a spammer.
The email bounces back to your friend.


3. This is how a lot of spam arrives.

+--------+ +--------+ +-------+
| | | Your | | |
|Spamming|--------------------->| mail |---->| You |
| PC | | server | | |
+--------+ +--------+ +-------+

If your friend's mail server does not give a valid fully-qualified
domain name, then your ISP's mail server assumes the email
is from a spammer. Almost all of the time this will be a good
bet.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:40:07 +0100, Terry Pinnell
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

[snip]

>>You can always test if things are working out OK by simply sending an
>>email to yourself
>
>As I said, this is a selective problem, not universal. Emails to many
>others (including myself) appear to get through OK.
>
>BTW, although I invariably do that self-mail test, as it's so
>trivially easy, I don't know how much confidence I can have in
>extrapolating its success. Given that both outgoing and incoming
>emails use the same (Pipex) servers, I wouldn't think it proves
>much...
>
>>or if using Xp the built in test facility.
>
>Yes, I have XP. Please amplify on the 'test facility' you mean.

Another error on my part [must have lost a marble during the last
week]; I was thinking of the built in test facility provided with
Microsoft Outlook 2002 or 2003. However I had found this not to be
100% reliable as a failure was given for a couple of postings that
actually were subsequently delivered.

Yeah, I not too sure have far it travels into cyber space if the POP3
and SMTP servers have the same IP address; perhaps an authority voice
can jump in on that one. But of course if you have another email
address elsewhere [even a WEB based one] that would perhaps test the
water better.

David Bradley

Terry Pinnell <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> Thanks, Paul. Internet communications remains a black art to me, so
> terms like HELO and FQDN leave me cold. But the gist of your reply
> ('it's down to him, not you') squares exactly with another response I
> had elsewhere. I'll copy it below for interest. (The remaining problem
> of establishing whether this really *is* the cause is hampered by the
> problem itself. Rather like the familiar Catch 22: "Can you all hear
> me at the back?"!)

Me too sometimes and it's part of my job :-)

Basically it looks like the mail server at his ISP isn't following the
recognized standard when it talks to the Pipex server, if you follow the
letter of the "law" they shouldn't reject on it, but it looks like they
are, as do we, as it stops a shedload of spam and viruses with little
impact on legitimate email.

The reply you pasted is spot-on (and he draws better than I do), so maybe
suggest to your friend that he forwards it to his ISP and see what they
have to say?

regards,
Paul

--
paul <at> spamcop.net