Splitters and Burglar Alarms

It wasn't till we recently had a line fault that knocked out our broadband
that I realised that our burglar alarm is wired directly into the line. It
was installed years ago and is wired directly into the master socket.

Clearly it's the 'wrong side' of the splitters now used in each socket but
nevertheless our broadband has worked for well over a year like this,
although we do occasionally have slight intermittent ADSL problems (doesn't
everyone?).

Can anyone please advise whether this arrangement ought to be changed or 'if
working, leave well alone'?

Thanks,

V

Victor Delta wrote:
> It wasn't till we recently had a line fault that knocked out our broadband
> that I realised that our burglar alarm is wired directly into the line. It
> was installed years ago and is wired directly into the master socket.
>
> Clearly it's the 'wrong side' of the splitters now used in each socket but
> nevertheless our broadband has worked for well over a year like this,
> although we do occasionally have slight intermittent ADSL problems (doesn't
> everyone?).
>
> Can anyone please advise whether this arrangement ought to be changed or 'if
> working, leave well alone'?
>
> Thanks,
>
> V

Change it, I did and noticed a lot of improvement. Exactly the same
experience as yours. Also, when you are finally forced up to the max
product it will exacerbate things. My issues only showed up then.

"Victor Delta" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> It wasn't till we recently had a line fault that knocked out our broadband
> that I realised that our burglar alarm is wired directly into the line. It
> was installed years ago and is wired directly into the master socket.

Is this an autodialler on the alarm?
If it is then you may lose your broadband when the alarm goes off (or during
a test) unless you filter it.

If its a permanently monitored alarm you should ask them what the
requirements are (probably nothing as it appears to work)

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:16 GMT, "dennis@home"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"Victor Delta" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> It wasn't till we recently had a line fault that knocked out our broadband
>> that I realised that our burglar alarm is wired directly into the line. It
>> was installed years ago and is wired directly into the master socket.
>
>Is this an autodialler on the alarm?
>If it is then you may lose your broadband when the alarm goes off (or during
>a test) unless you filter it.
>
>If its a permanently monitored alarm you should ask them what the
>requirements are (probably nothing as it appears to work)
>
>
>

STOP, count up to ten before doing anything as any changes made might
invadiate your service agreement with your alarm company and could lead to a
situation where you are become uninsured.

My premises has Redcare installed and prior to Broadband being available the
only other use of the line was for a fax machine via a Redcare filter into the
master socket. It is the only line into our premises which is analogue since
the switch for telephone services is with multiple ISDN2e lines.

Extensive equiries revealled that it was possible to overlay this analogue
line with an ADSL service and all that would be required would be an ADSL
filter for the fax machine in conjuction with the Redcare filter. It was not
necessary to have an ADSL filter for the alarm connection. What remained
unresolved to this day is whether the Redcare filter would be best connected
before or after the ADSL filter; logic indicated it should be after, and thiat
is how it is for us.

I was advised in no uncertain terms that the hard wiring of the Redcare unit
should remain, complete with its indentifable connection block. So if this is
the system you have, then leave well alone the connectivity into the alarm
unit.

Of course if you have a system which has an auto dialler fitted then this
would indicate an ADSL filter would be required. The line should be configured
for outgoing calls only and exclusively for this purposes since any other
connected device which has failed to clear down after a call would inhibit the
alarm sending a signal to the remote monitoring station. I was under the
impression that there were no longer any intruder alarms that used auto
diallers.

I think for this newsgroup to come up with an authority answer of what you
should do in your particular case requires more information to be posted which
perhaps might be unwise as security issues would be discussed in a very public
forum. My suggestion is to discuss the issues with your alarm company.

David Bradley

Many thanks for all the helpful responses. I also had some useful responses
via the uk.telecom group.

AFAIK it's only an (old) autodialler although my understanding is that it
can grab the line if there's a call in progress - which suggests the line
loops in and out of the alarm box and back to the master socket.

However, I shall certainly now contact the alarm company and ask them to fit
a filter (asap or on their next 6 monthly visit).

Thanks again.

V

Victor Delta wrote:
> It wasn't till we recently had a line fault that knocked out our broadband
> that I realised that our burglar alarm is wired directly into the line. It
> was installed years ago and is wired directly into the master socket.
>
> Clearly it's the 'wrong side' of the splitters now used in each socket but
> nevertheless our broadband has worked for well over a year like this,
> although we do occasionally have slight intermittent ADSL problems (doesn't
> everyone?).
>
> Can anyone please advise whether this arrangement ought to be changed or 'if
> working, leave well alone'?
>
> Thanks,

I had a few filters go dead over about a year with a telephone and
personal alarm system sharing the line but then had to shift to another
line as the one I was using, blew filters at one a week and a couple
only lasted a day (when the newly installed Sky dish needed yet another
connection on that line too) then I remembered something about a maximum
of four loads per standard line without a booster, while the technicians
were running around.

<http://web.ukonline.co.uk/freshwater/ren.htm>

It's probably not your problem but generally something that gets
overlooked and now on my own line for almost a year I've had no problems
at all.



Richard.


--
Two updates tools for 3D Studio Max
<http://www.kdbanglia.com/maxtools.html>

"Richard Brooks" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)...
> I had a few filters go dead over about a year with a telephone and
> personal alarm system sharing the line but then had to shift to another
> line as the one I was using, blew filters at one a week and a couple only
> lasted a day (when the newly installed Sky dish needed yet another
> connection on that line too) then I remembered something about a maximum
> of four loads per standard line without a booster, while the technicians
> were running around.
>
> <http://web.ukonline.co.uk/freshwater/ren.htm>
>
> It's probably not your problem but generally something that gets
> overlooked and now on my own line for almost a year I've had no problems
> at all.

Thanks. Yes usually anything more than 4 phones (each with a REN=1) will
cause problem on a phone line including possible broadband issues. Following
the recent problem, I've actually removed one of my phones in case it was
the straw that was (occasionally) breaking the camel's back, but the
intermittent problem remains.

However, I'm interested in what you say about filters occasionally blowing
or going dead. How do you know when a filter has died - especially when you
may be using several of them on various extensions in a house. Is there a
simple way of testing them?

V

Victor Delta wrote:
> "Richard Brooks" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> message news(E-Mail Removed)...
>> I had a few filters go dead over about a year with a telephone and
>> personal alarm system sharing the line but then had to shift to
>> another line as the one I was using, blew filters at one a week
>> and a couple only lasted a day (when the newly installed Sky dish
>> needed yet another connection on that line too) then I remembered
>> something about a maximum of four loads per standard line without
>> a booster, while the technicians were running around.
>>
>> <http://web.ukonline.co.uk/freshwater/ren.htm>
>>
>> It's probably not your problem but generally something that gets
>> overlooked and now on my own line for almost a year I've had no
>> problems at all.
>
> Thanks. Yes usually anything more than 4 phones (each with a REN=1)
> will cause problem on a phone line including possible broadband
> issues. Following the recent problem, I've actually removed one of
> my phones in case it was the straw that was (occasionally) breaking
> the camel's back, but the intermittent problem remains.
>
> However, I'm interested in what you say about filters occasionally
> blowing or going dead. How do you know when a filter has died -
> especially when you may be using several of them on various
> extensions in a house. Is there a simple way of testing them?
>

Normally the analogue phone line will go noisey, especially on the
phone attatched to the duff filter, that's if it still works. It's
one of the reasons why the faceplate filters are really the best way
to go, only one point of weakness, only one point to check, unlike the
5 you've got...

Of by the way exceeding the REN doesn't normally cause problems with
the broadband, just the ringing cadence of the phones gets changed or
stops completely, depending how far over you go...

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006, Victor Delta wrote:

> Thanks. Yes usually anything more than 4 phones (each with a REN=1)
> will cause problem on a phone line including possible broadband
> issues.

That's very misleading. You don't normally get phones these days
which really have a REN of 1, but there's no incentive to declare
the REN more accurately, so the manufacturers just make do with
declaring REN=1 anyway.

There do seem to be possible issues with the unbalanced bell wire, but
I hadn't heard of them being dependent on loading.

If you *know* you're always going to be using ADSL via local
splitters, you don't actually need the bell wire connected at the
linebox, and disconnecting it might remove a potential source of
problems. But then you'd have a non-standard installation... and if
you ever decide to go for a main splitter at the linebox instead, then
don't forget to reinstate the bell wire.

> However, I'm interested in what you say about filters occasionally
> blowing or going dead. How do you know when a filter has died -
> especially when you may be using several of them on various
> extensions in a house. Is there a simple way of testing them?

I don't think so, other than pulling them all out and then trying
each, one at a time, comparing results against a new one (you do of
course keep at least one known-good spare, right? they only cost
pocket-money, after all). Watch your router's sync speed and SNR
margin report as you try it.

As a baseline comparison, take note of what you get if you pull the
sub-panel off the linebox and plug the ADSL router into the internal
socket.

h t h

Alan J. Flavell wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2006, Victor Delta wrote:
>
>
>>Thanks. Yes usually anything more than 4 phones (each with a REN=1)
>>will cause problem on a phone line including possible broadband
>>issues.
>
>
>
>
>>However, I'm interested in what you say about filters occasionally
>>blowing or going dead. How do you know when a filter has died -
>>especially when you may be using several of them on various
>>extensions in a house. Is there a simple way of testing them?
>
>
> I don't think so, other than pulling them all out and then trying
> each, one at a time, comparing results against a new one (you do of
> course keep at least one known-good spare, right? they only cost
> pocket-money, after all). Watch your router's sync speed and SNR
> margin report as you try it.
>
Interestingly we have just supplied a couple of splitters to a friend
and triued the 'no bell wire' option.
Guess what?
The phones using our splitters didn't work!
They were cheap ones £2.25 from CPC with the Commtel label.

Taking one apart I discovered that they not only diddn't have a 'bell
capacitor' installed but also they didn't have the high-pass filter in
the ADSL leg - only the low-pass filter in the phone leg.

The Low pass is to keep ADSL data off the analogue phone but the High
pass is specified to keep impedance changes away from the ADSL modem.

Looks like buying cheap filters in dodgy areas is a mistake.

The official BT one I looked at also only had two 'pins' on teh BT plug
- a shure way of knowing that it was actually deriving the ringing from
within the splitter not down the third 'bell' wire.

Mike

PS going to get a Maplin one today and pull it apart to see whats in theirs.