What sort of fault might this be?

Heres one that's new to me )-:

Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master socket. I
have tried 3 different microfilters and 2 differnet modem/routers, but
the result is the same :-

With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
with the occasional crackle. This i swith nothing more than a microfilter
plugged into the test port, a standard analogue phone and Draytek router
(one of 2 I've tried - a 2600+ and a 2600vg)

Broadband is mostly the full 8Mb, although I'm only 0.5Km from the
exchange, SNR isn't really what I'd expect. Currently seeing:

up: 736000 down: 6880000 snr: 15.5 loopAtt:23.0

So I know that if I call BT they'll just tell me it's my equipment,
(as in, oh listen, it's silent when you turn off the router so it must
be the router) and charge me for a call-out fee, so is there anything
that anyone in the past has seen that would cause this? Something I
could tell the BT teletubby that they might belive?

This has happened before - during a period of bad weather, but it's been
nice here for weeks now!

If anyone has any clues, magic words to say to BT, etc. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Gordon

In article <(E-Mail Removed) >,
Peter Crosland <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Heres one that's new to me )-:
>>
>> Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master socket. I
>> have tried 3 different microfilters and 2 differnet modem/routers, but
>> the result is the same :-
>>
>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>> with the occasional crackle. This i swith nothing more than a microfilter
>> plugged into the test port, a standard analogue phone and Draytek router
>> (one of 2 I've tried - a 2600+ and a 2600vg)
>>
>> Broadband is mostly the full 8Mb, although I'm only 0.5Km from the
>> exchange, SNR isn't really what I'd expect. Currently seeing:
>>
>> up: 736000 down: 6880000 snr: 15.5 loopAtt:23.0
>>
>> So I know that if I call BT they'll just tell me it's my equipment,
>> (as in, oh listen, it's silent when you turn off the router so it must
>> be the router) and charge me for a call-out fee, so is there anything
>> that anyone in the past has seen that would cause this? Something I
>> could tell the BT teletubby that they might belive?
>>
>> This has happened before - during a period of bad weather, but it's been
>> nice here for weeks now!
>>
>> If anyone has any clues, magic words to say to BT, etc. I'd appreciate it.
>
>
>At the risk of stating the obvious have you tried just the filter and router
>plugged into the test socket with nothing else connected? It does appear
>likely that the problem is not with BT so don't involve them. The other
>possibility is that both router and/or filters have faults. Can you borrow
>another of both to try? Are the filter good quality branded ones rather than
>the anonymous T shaped variety?

Yes, I have tried both routers directly into the socket - they sync OK, but
not at the values I'd expect. (Same SNR/LoopAtt values)

And while there is a possibility the router have faults, I doubt it -
I've been using them since I got ADSL. I have graphs of the SNR/LoopAtt
values too for the past year, so I know it's never been right for a long
time (considering my distance from the exchange and based on neighbours
connections) - it's only recently it's started to get worse...

Actually, I've tried 4 microfilters - the "normal" one I use is a box
mounted faceplate from solwise - at the end of 5m of cat5 cable from
the master socket - that yields the same results, so I went right back
to the master socket for the rest of my tests.

I'm fairly sure I did ready about someone recently with a similar fault,
but I've done a search here and elsewhere, but not come up with anything
yet - corroded wire, high resistance, bad connection, *something* like
that in the external BT cabling, but ...

Gordon

In article <gbq81h$kua$(E-Mail Removed)>, gordon+(E-Mail Removed)
says...

>
> Yes, I have tried both routers directly into the socket - they sync OK, but
> not at the values I'd expect. (Same SNR/LoopAtt values)
>
> And while there is a possibility the router have faults, I doubt it -
> I've been using them since I got ADSL. I have graphs of the SNR/LoopAtt
> values too for the past year, so I know it's never been right for a long
> time (considering my distance from the exchange and based on neighbours
> connections) - it's only recently it's started to get worse...
>
> Actually, I've tried 4 microfilters - the "normal" one I use is a box
> mounted faceplate from solwise - at the end of 5m of cat5 cable from
> the master socket - that yields the same results, so I went right back

Do you have any home phone wiring? If so, this will probably be
connected to the back of the master faceplate so your wiring described
above, if I understand it correctly, is wrong. The filter MUST be
connected between the incoming phone wires and all your home phone-type
equipment and wiring. It must be connected before any home phone
wiring, for best effect. What it appears you have done is to connect a
filter into a "box mounted faceplate from Solwise at the end of 5m of
cat5 cable from the master socket". How does this filter remove the
ADSL signal from your home phone wiring?

Don't forget that an ADSL filter does nothing between the phone line
and the ADSL modem. It only provides a low-pass filter, to remove the
ADSL part of the combined signal, between the incoming phone line and
the internal telephony wires and devices. Your description of the
problem (the ADSL HF noise) sounds like you don't have a filter between
the incoming phone line and your telephone.

That said, your test putting the filter into the test socket and
plugging the telephone into the filter's phone socket (you did this,
didn't you?), with the modem in the filter's ADSL socket, should have
removed the ADSL signal from the phone. You are close to the exchange,
so I'd try putting more than one filter in series with the telephones.
This is because filters aren't sharp cut-off devices so the lower
frequency ADSL signals may still be audible (I used to work with a
"golden ears" who could hear cross-talk at -60dB) You can get filters
with sharper cut-off characteristics that perform better on short lines
than the standard design.

Also, try disconnecting the pin-3 ring wire. It may be picking up the
ADSL signal and coupling it into the phone side of the wiring (but not
likely if you did the test socket connection correctly...)

ADSL filters do fail. They have capacitors in them which can change
characteristics with age (and high ring signals). Try a new faceplate
filter. I've had good performance with ADSLnation ones - but they also
will age...
--
John W
Replace the obvious with co.uk twice to mail me

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
John Weston <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>In article <gbq81h$kua$(E-Mail Removed)>, gordon+(E-Mail Removed)
>says...
>
>>
>> Yes, I have tried both routers directly into the socket - they sync OK, but
>> not at the values I'd expect. (Same SNR/LoopAtt values)
>>
>> And while there is a possibility the router have faults, I doubt it -
>> I've been using them since I got ADSL. I have graphs of the SNR/LoopAtt
>> values too for the past year, so I know it's never been right for a long
>> time (considering my distance from the exchange and based on neighbours
>> connections) - it's only recently it's started to get worse...
>>
>> Actually, I've tried 4 microfilters - the "normal" one I use is a box
>> mounted faceplate from solwise - at the end of 5m of cat5 cable from
>> the master socket - that yields the same results, so I went right back
>
>Do you have any home phone wiring?

No.

Actually yes, but I did say I was plugged directly into the master socket
which disables all internal wiring. I may not have been quite clear, but
I really meant the test socket on the BT fitted box.

>If so, this will probably be
>connected to the back of the master faceplate so your wiring described
>above, if I understand it correctly, is wrong.

The home wiring is connected to the front-plate, so when I remove the
front-plate, it disconnects all home wiring, leaving just the test socket
on the master box which is what I am plugging into. Into this socket I
have plugged 2 modems (not at the same time), both with and without 3
different microfilters. The SNR/LoopAtt doesn't change with or without
the microfilters, but with the microfilters I hear hiss/crackles when
the ADSL modems start their synchronisation process.

I don't want to sound like a bit of a know-it-all, but I sell and
install ADSL as part of my business and have done dozens of installs
and home/office phone/network re-wires. I have the proper tools and
I've a good level of clue about phone wiring and so on, and how to
trouble shoot it all back to the BT master box. I've done all this in
my case and it's still not right, now I'm looking for clues as to what
the external issue might be.

Yes, I know filters and modems can fail, but right now I've tried
4 filters and now 3 different modems, all with the same results. As
soon as the modem starts to negotiate, the audio part starts to hiss
and crackle and I'm of the opinion that this is caused by some sort
of external failure in either the line or equipment at the exchange,
however getting BT to acknowledge this and not charge me a 100 quid
call-out fee is what I'm trying to do.

>That said, your test putting the filter into the test socket and
>plugging the telephone into the filter's phone socket (you did this,
>didn't you?),

Yes I did. I may not have made that clear, but I was (currently still
am) plugged directly into the test socket.

> with the modem in the filter's ADSL socket, should have
>removed the ADSL signal from the phone. You are close to the exchange,
>so I'd try putting more than one filter in series with the telephones.
>This is because filters aren't sharp cut-off devices so the lower
>frequency ADSL signals may still be audible (I used to work with a
>"golden ears" who could hear cross-talk at -60dB) You can get filters
>with sharper cut-off characteristics that perform better on short lines
>than the standard design.

My concern is not so-much for the hiss/crackles I hear on the phone, but
that the ADSL modem signals are causing it via some line fault - either a
bad connection or some sort of high resistance, corrosion, diode effect
(???) or equipment failure at the exchange that's being triggererd
somehow by the adsl modem signals.

I can trace my wire visibly from the master socket to the pole where it
goes underground to the exchange..

>Also, try disconnecting the pin-3 ring wire. It may be picking up the
>ADSL signal and coupling it into the phone side of the wiring (but not
>likely if you did the test socket connection correctly...)

It's not connected at all. I normally only have one telephone device
connected and that's a PBX. My home/office phones are on the other side
of the PBX. Right now, it's not connected, just my test phone.

>ADSL filters do fail. They have capacitors in them which can change
>characteristics with age (and high ring signals). Try a new faceplate
>filter. I've had good performance with ADSLnation ones - but they also
>will age...

I've tried 4 so-far and 3 modems. One (filter) was brand-new out of the box.

Gordon

Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>with the occasional crackle.

Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal contacts
can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
products in the audio range.

A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect it to
crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes influenced
by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher voltage of
incoming ringing.

A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
away.

--

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
nospam <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>>I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>>with the occasional crackle.
>
>Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal contacts
>can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
>products in the audio range.
>
>A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
>same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect it to
>crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes influenced
>by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher voltage of
>incoming ringing.
>
>A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
>connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
>away.

Right.

But how to get BT to actually do something about it though )-:

It might even be worth the 100 quid if I could actually get BT to do
this...

Gordon

In article <gbqc1m$spd$(E-Mail Removed)>, gordon+(E-Mail Removed)
says...

>
> I don't want to sound like a bit of a know-it-all, but I sell and
> install ADSL as part of my business and have done dozens of installs
> and home/office phone/network re-wires. I have the proper tools and
> I've a good level of clue about phone wiring and so on, and how to
> trouble shoot it all back to the BT master box. I've done all this in
> my case and it's still not right, now I'm looking for clues as to what
> the external issue might be.
>
> Yes, I know filters and modems can fail, but right now I've tried
> 4 filters and now 3 different modems, all with the same results. As
> soon as the modem starts to negotiate, the audio part starts to hiss

Ah - the essential information :-) You can often hear the ADSL modem
until the line synchronises.

I assume you are using a basic phone and have tried different types.
Some older electronic types were not designed to reject even the low
level filtered ADSL signal. Have you tried filters in series to get a
sharper cut-off? - but that won't help is it is noise in the audio
band.

It does sound like a line problem causing cross-modulation. IME, it's a
b****r to get fixed if you don't have a technically competent ISP - and
Openreach engineer interested in fixing the fault. Can the noise be
heard at the other end of a phone call? If so, it is somewhat easier
to get the fault acknowledged.

Good look - and let us know if you find, or get a fix...
--
John W
Replace the obvious with co.uk twice to mail me

nospam wrote:
> Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>> with the occasional crackle.
>
> Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal contacts
> can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
> products in the audio range.

Reading the thread I couldn't see a mechanism that would cause this..but
yes, you are exactly right here.


>
> A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
> same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect it to
> crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes influenced
> by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher voltage of
> incoming ringing.
>
> A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
> connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
> away.
>

The problem is getting Openreach and the ISP to accept they have a
fault..Test equipment should see the fault though.

I've just sorted a very similar problem for one of my customers using Unicom. They have their support in Manchester but are just as bad as an Indian call centre, the staff all read off a script. I spent over 40 mins on the phone and still no resolution, they did a line test and said as that came back ok there was NO problem with the line, here are some of the questions.

Unicom: Are you using the speed touch modem we supplied?
Myself: No we are using a Linksys router.
Unicom: Can you plug the Speed Touch modem in and goto a speed test site.
Myself: The router doesn’t see a ADSL signal on the line.
Unicom: If you don’t goto the speed test site there is nothing I can do.
Myself: There is no ADSL on the line!
Unicom: Look we have a procedure to work through.
Unicom: Looking at this you had the ADSL installed less than 16 days ago you will need to sp. (I had to cut him short)
Myself: No! 2 years and 14 days ago!
Myself: Can I speak to your supervisor please.

Then onto the supervisor after much discussion (about 20 mins)

Unicom: Do you have firewall software installed on your computer?
Myself: No
Unicom: Well your ADSL connection ahs probably been hacked then!
Myself: How did they do that then?
Unicom: These hackers are really clever these days….
Myself: Laughing (My customer is in stitches at this point), this is a new one to me.
Unicom: You will have to install firewall software on your computer.
Myself: The router has an inbuilt firewall.
Unicom: That won’t stop them.
Myself: Could it be an unbalanced tap?
Unicom: Unbalanced what?
Myself: Do you know anything about how ADSL works?
Unicom: Yes, if the phone line works then there is no problem with the ADSL.
Myself: Why am I speaking to you on my mobile, maybe there is so much noise on the phone line you can’t make a voice call. (note they had tested the line and said there was no problem)
Unicom: I will pass it onto the Technical department..

Following this and about 5 emails to the technical department they arranged an engineer to visit, but said that if no problem was found they would charge for the visit.

The engineer within 30 seconds said there was a problem with the line and changed the line onto another pair from the exchange, not even a sorry from the ISP

The following is a useful document to confuse technical support at an isp…

http://www.nicc.org.uk/nicc-public/P...s/Intfr_i1.pdf

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
John Livingston <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> nospam wrote:
>>> Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as
>>>> soon as
>>>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound
>>>> hissy
>>>> with the occasional crackle.
>>>
>>> Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal
>>> contacts
>>> can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
>>> products in the audio range.
>>
>> Reading the thread I couldn't see a mechanism that would cause this..but
>> yes, you are exactly right here.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
>>> same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect
>>> it to
>>> crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes
>>> influenced
>>> by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher
>>> voltage of
>>> incoming ringing.
>>> A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
>>> connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
>>> away.
>>
>> The problem is getting Openreach and the ISP to accept they have a
>> fault..Test equipment should see the fault though.
>>
>
>Agree with all of that - except the last bit. The usual test kit "BT
>Hawk" and similar MAY see the fault if it is gross, but often won't show
>true intermittents. That's the problem I had with my (now fixed) HR
>fault. The only real way is to monitor the SNR margin over an extended
>time at the DSLAM or the modem. I believe BT has the capability to do
>this, but they don't seem to do so in most cases (Open to correction
>here...)

Must have been your post I saw earlier - I knew I'd seem someone with a
similar problem!

I've got graphs, but who'll believe me?

http://unicorn.drogon.net/adsl-day.png

Green is SNR Margin, blue is loop attenuation. It started late last
night by the looks of it.

A copy of the connection history off Entas site:

http://unicorn.drogon.net/connectionhistory.php.html

BT's online test found nothing wrong (surprise!), but now that I know
"HR Fault" I might be able to wrangle them into action... However it's
been dry (and warm) here for the past week or so - maybe a box somewhere
has eventually dried out and it's made things worse...

Watch this space...

Gordon