Setting up two separate networks on two routers on one Network?

Im a teacher at a small school. We have one 2003 server and several
teachers computers. We also have student computers some which are
laptops.

I don't know some about networking but don't know how to do what I
want at this point.

We have one connection to the internet. What I want is two separate
networks. One that accesses the Windows server and other resources on
that network. eg printers, small library database computers etc. but
also allows you to surf the net. But I also want another network that
students can connect to just to surf the net. They would not be able
to access the server or any resources on its network. Now of course
this is already achieved by passwords and active directories etc. But
I would also like to separate it by the network. One added feature of
this is that I could put wireless networks on the one network (student
Net) eg the one that is just for surfing which helps a little in the
area of security.

I don't really know how to do this. I'm sure that its just primarily
through IP settings etc. on the router but I dont know know how to do
this. Does anyone know of a web site that would help me here or give
me a simple description of how to do this that would help to get this
started.

As an added question if I may. I bought a wireless N router and a
wireless N card. This is suppose to travel farther than other wifi
signals. I have not found this to be true any anyone give me any
feedback on their findings.

Regards

steve wrote:
> Im a teacher at a small school. We have one 2003 server and several
> teachers computers. We also have student computers some which are
> laptops.
>
> I don't know some about networking but don't know how to do what I
> want at this point.
>
> We have one connection to the internet. What I want is two separate
> networks. One that accesses the Windows server and other resources on
> that network. eg printers, small library database computers etc. but
> also allows you to surf the net. But I also want another network that
> students can connect to just to surf the net. They would not be able
> to access the server or any resources on its network. Now of course
> this is already achieved by passwords and active directories etc. But
> I would also like to separate it by the network. One added feature of
> this is that I could put wireless networks on the one network (student
> Net) eg the one that is just for surfing which helps a little in the
> area of security.
>
> I don't really know how to do this. I'm sure that its just primarily
> through IP settings etc. on the router but I dont know know how to do
> this. Does anyone know of a web site that would help me here or give
> me a simple description of how to do this that would help to get this
> started.
>
> As an added question if I may. I bought a wireless N router and a
> wireless N card. This is suppose to travel farther than other wifi
> signals. I have not found this to be true any anyone give me any
> feedback on their findings.
>
> Regards

Using passwords in Active Directory is not a proper way of preventing
access to it.

What you should do is have a Wireless subnet which students can use to
surf the Internet, and use access lists to prevent that subnet from
accessing the Servers (which you will put on another subnet).

What sort of router you have, and what sort of interfaces that router
has on it will determine how this is set up. Of course - the equipment
is your only limitation. :-)

So, if you replied with some Make & Models of the network equipment that
you already have, or if you were open to spending; then someone (even on
this newgroup) could help you to start planning.

Regards,
Jason

Jason or others.

Thanks for your advice.

We have several routers, no consistency I'm afraid. As the place grew
and more and more area wanted wifi then they got added.

Dlink ebr2310 (which is our dhcp and our gateway to the world)
USR8054 x2
Linksys wrt54gs
Linksys WRT300N

I provide these to show you waht we have. And of course we can buy
more. But I think what Im looking for is to understand the concept.
Because of course I think (if your not too picky) any router can
basically do what you have mentioned. eg set up a sub net. (Please
feel free to correct me on anything)

IF my presumption is true(?) That most routers can do this. I have
several questions. BTW our current addressing scheme is 192.168.1.x
and we have one Router doing dhcp. The server does not do this. This
is the system I inherited.

Lets call the two networks Office and Student.

Would I just plug the Wifi routers in the office network. Set one up
to do DHCP based on 192.168.2.x (or even 10.1.0.x just to make it
really different) Then give all the student wifi routers static ip's
of the 192.168.2.1 , 2, 3, etc. Any Wifi that I wanted Teachers to
access the network say the teachers lounge I would give the
192.168.1.x address. (yes I know there will be some leakage from the
lounge but Im really just trying to understand the concept at the
moment.


By the way if anyone wants to read a great relatively simple article
on routers and basically how they work and how to set up two routers
to create a super secure network here are a few links. I have read
them and they are great. However they dont quite do what I want.

http://www.grc.com/nat/nat.htm
http://www.grc.com/nat/nats.htm



Here is a suggested diagram. Cut and paste into notepad or some other
mono spacing text editor.


DMZ
.-------.
|NatRout|< Office DHCP
'-------'
|
| ()
.-------. .-------. .-------. /\/\/\/
|Switch|----------|Switch|--|NatRout|-------------| NWFR |
'-------' '-------' '-------' \/\/\/
| | |
| | |
| | .----------|
| | | |
| | () | |
| () /\/\/\/ | | ()
/\/\/\/ | NWFR | | /\/\/\/
| NWFR | \/\/\/ | | NWFR |
\/\/\/ Student | \/\/\/
Student | Student
| ()
/\/\/\/
| NWFR |Office
\/\/\/

----Table------------------------------------------------------------

-
.-------.
|Switch| == Switch NAT WIFI ROUTER
'-------'
()
/\/\/\/
.-------. | NWFR |
|NatRout|==NAT Router \/\/\/
'-------'
(created by AACircuit v1.28.4 beta 13/12/04 www.tech-chat.de)

Ken I didnt see your post untill now.

Im trying to understand your answer. If I put a router on the
network. so >>dmz - [router-dhcp]--- students --- [router] ---
teachers---- Does this mean that I can use the same ip scheme eg
192.168.1.x on both networks but the students will not be able to
access anything behind the teachers router that is downstream ?( I
get the term downstream and upstream confused so I may mean upstream)
Basically that students will not be able to access teachers stuff.
Also If I use a separate numbering scheme eg 10.1.0.x do I have to set
up the teachers router to do that. and will it do it for different
"legs" of the net that have wifi or network connections. What would be
the pros and cons of using the same subnet (if thats what the
192.168.1.x is ) from using and setting up a second one for the
teachers.
Hope Im clear and dont ask to goofy questions.

Thanks.

> You want both routers to be doing dhcp.
So one router would do IP's for Students and another would do IP's for
teachers is what I hear you saying.

> > teachers---- Does this mean that I can use the same ip scheme eg
> > 192.168.1.x on both networks but the students will not be able to
> > access anything behind the teachers router that is downstream ?
>
> You can do that. I just prefer to have them on separate address ranges
> to help minimize confusion (mine as well as possibly router).
Yes I agree 192.x and 10.x Nice and clear.

> Because the students router is upstream (outside) of the teachers
> router, any attempt to get passed the teachers router will be blocked
> (routers are at a minimum one way firewalls - without a request from
> inside, nothing coming from the outside gets in).
Yes I understand, love that NAT.


>
> You can set either router for a different address range.
>
> and will it do it for different
>
> > "legs" of the net that have wifi or network connections.
>
> Each router would have its own IP address range and therefore whichever
> routers provide wifi would use the range set in that router. Each router
> can support up to 255 devices.

Ok I need a little more fleshing out here I don't quite understand
what you mean here.

Say you have a network that looks like Pitch fork. There are 3 spikes
on the fork. Along the fork there are wireless routers and computers
for the students. However at the end of the tines (the spike of the
fork) you put a Teacher router. Can you set one of these teacher
routers to do dhcp for the teachers, then give each of the teachers
routers a different IP address, say 10.1.0.1. & .2 & .3 set each of
the subnet masks to 255.255.255.0 and I'm done. This will mean that in
total I will allow roughly 255 computers on this subnet 10.1.0.1-255
(this is way more than we need by the way).
Can one dhcp figure out who it is suppose to give IP's though on a
network that has other traffic on it.

Will the routers at the end of spike 2 and 3 find the DHCP on 10.1.0.1
despite the fact that the network is also the students network.
Do ya get what I mean??

> What would be
> > the pros and cons of using the same subnet (if thats what the
> > 192.168.1.x is ) from using and setting up a second one for the
> > teachers.
>
> I am not well versed in subnet masking (i.e. 255.255.255.0). I do know
> that you can you the same IP address range (192.169.1.x) with different
> subnet masks to keep things separate, but I'm not confident enough with
> it to give advice.

Sure and frankly subnets 192.x and 10.x makes it clearer.

Hope Im clear enough. Frankly its sort of fun figuring it all out.

Regards

steve wrote:
> Im a teacher at a small school. We have one 2003 server and several
> teachers computers. We also have student computers some which are
> laptops.
>
> I don't know some about networking but don't know how to do what I
> want at this point.
>
> We have one connection to the internet. What I want is two separate
> networks. One that accesses the Windows server and other resources on
> that network. eg printers, small library database computers etc. but
> also allows you to surf the net. But I also want another network that
> students can connect to just to surf the net. They would not be able
> to access the server or any resources on its network. Now of course
> this is already achieved by passwords and active directories etc. But
> I would also like to separate it by the network. One added feature of
> this is that I could put wireless networks on the one network (student
> Net) eg the one that is just for surfing which helps a little in the
> area of security.
>
> I don't really know how to do this. I'm sure that its just primarily
> through IP settings etc. on the router but I dont know know how to do
> this. Does anyone know of a web site that would help me here or give
> me a simple description of how to do this that would help to get this
> started.
>
> As an added question if I may. I bought a wireless N router and a
> wireless N card. This is suppose to travel farther than other wifi
> signals. I have not found this to be true any anyone give me any
> feedback on their findings.
>
> Regards
The person who wrote this is s teacher? Egad!

On Aug 12, 10:31 am, Major Minor <maj...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> steve wrote:
> > Im a teacher at a small school. We have one 2003 server and several
> > teachers computers. We also have student computers some which are
> > laptops.
>
> > I don't know some about networking but don't know how to do what I
> > want at this point.
>
> > We have one connection to the internet. What I want is two separate
> > networks. One that accesses the Windows server and other resources on
> > that network. eg printers, small library database computers etc. but
> > also allows you to surf the net. But I also want another network that
> > students can connect to just to surf the net. They would not be able
> > to access the server or any resources on its network. Now of course
> > this is already achieved by passwords and active directories etc. But
> > I would also like to separate it by the network. One added feature of
> > this is that I could put wireless networks on the one network (student
> > Net) eg the one that is just for surfing which helps a little in the
> > area of security.
>
> > I don't really know how to do this. I'm sure that its just primarily
> > through IP settings etc. on the router but I dont know know how to do
> > this. Does anyone know of a web site that would help me here or give
> > me a simple description of how to do this that would help to get this
> > started.
>
> > As an added question if I may. I bought a wireless N router and a
> > wireless N card. This is suppose to travel farther than other wifi
> > signals. I have not found this to be true any anyone give me any
> > feedback on their findings.
>
> > Regards
>
> The person who wrote this is s teacher? Egad!

Yes thanks for the compliment I should really be in IT Instead of the
History department.

Regards

>Let's back up a little. How many student computers do you need to
>accommodate (wired and wireless)? How many teacher computers (wired and
>wireless)?

Student computers would be about 5 Wired and 10-15 Wireless.
Teachers computers and library are about 15.

>Forgot to add... Are the computers spread out over some distance or
>would one wireless router cover the area?

Campus is several Buildings and residences (Row Houses) The buildings
are around 70-100+ years old, Some buidings are 20 feet away others
are maybe 75 feet away.Not that far apart really. That means SOLID
construction, stone brick thick walls. We have several WIFIs now but
struggle with conectivity.
In thinking this through one of the problems is that Im going to have
to go through and change all the ip's on all the devices, printers etc
and possibly reconfigure the server. And add Routers onto the existing
line to create the second layer of defense (second network.)

Your comment back to me leads me to think that the the question
regarding DHCP is no! eg if you have one teacher router connected to
the upstream student network, that the one teacher router will not be
able to see the second teacher router connected upstream to the
student network.
That there needs to be a separate network cable connecting the
teachers network and students network.

Right now its basically network cable running here and there and
trying to separate the lines upstream and down stream may be very
hard?? I could diagram it basically if it would like to show you how
its configured now.
Regards

In other words NO one wireless router would not work. We have several
now!

Regards

"steve" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:92aff83c-1fa5-4ada-8582-(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> The person who wrote this is s teacher? Egad!
>
> Yes thanks for the compliment I should really be in IT Instead of the
> History department.
>
> Regards

lol - a fine retort!

People seem to forget that usenet postings aren't usually used as doctoral
theses or even papers.
Nevertheless, the (amateur) grammar and usage police are everywhere! Beware!
Hide the women and children!
PS: consider how much more interesting the original post might have been had
it come from a CrackBerry or simlar mobile phone with a next to useless
keypad!