setting up a free hotspot

A simple mom and pop store is looking into setting up WIFI for an RV
park (back of facility) and customers on two sides that would access
the wifi from outside the store. The wifi is to attract users to the
store rather than to set up a business.

Here is my guestimate of what would be required, though I'm looking for
good suggestions. Note that this should run without a PC present other
than to set it up.

Take the dsl and feed it to a router such as di-804hv. [I've had good
luck with both DLink and SMC gear, with DLink providing better
support.] Now I have 4 ports For each side of the building,connect a
high power wap like Senao NL-2611 CB3 Plus. I like the idea that they
are powered over the ethernet since they means only one walwart in the
system. On each outside wall, a flat pannel antenna such as
<http://www.wlanparts.com/c=MmRUC0UWukuF059HF7R8OJrBy/product/PA24-13>

I'd like the user about 200ft away to access the system with a low
power wifi card. I've done easily twice that distance using a 250mw
card and a homemade biquad, so I am assuming the reciprocal would be
true.

One last thing...Is there a way to prevent users on one side of the
building from accessing their wap, going through the router, then
hacking a user on a different wap connected to the router. That is
other than the users making sure file sharing is turned off.

http://www.schoffstallnet.com/coverage.html
This Guy dos it here. ask him.

Maybe I should have mentioned "on the cheap" in the post. Also, that
company is in Pa., and the site is in the west. I'm looking for
hardware advice. If this is not the forum, perhaps someone can suggest
a better one.


Rich wrote:
> http://www.schoffstallnet.com/coverage.html
> This Guy dos it here. ask him.

By a $39.00 linksys wirless router and hook it to a internet line. WRT54G




<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> A simple mom and pop store is looking into setting up WIFI for an RV
> park (back of facility) and customers on two sides that would access
> the wifi from outside the store. The wifi is to attract users to the
> store rather than to set up a business.
>
> Here is my guestimate of what would be required, though I'm looking for
> good suggestions. Note that this should run without a PC present other
> than to set it up.
>
> Take the dsl and feed it to a router such as di-804hv. [I've had good
> luck with both DLink and SMC gear, with DLink providing better
> support.] Now I have 4 ports For each side of the building,connect a
> high power wap like Senao NL-2611 CB3 Plus. I like the idea that they
> are powered over the ethernet since they means only one walwart in the
> system. On each outside wall, a flat pannel antenna such as
> <http://www.wlanparts.com/c=MmRUC0UWukuF059HF7R8OJrBy/product/PA24-13>
>
> I'd like the user about 200ft away to access the system with a low
> power wifi card. I've done easily twice that distance using a 250mw
> card and a homemade biquad, so I am assuming the reciprocal would be
> true.
>
> One last thing...Is there a way to prevent users on one side of the
> building from accessing their wap, going through the router, then
> hacking a user on a different wap connected to the router. That is
> other than the users making sure file sharing is turned off.
>

I know you are trying to be helpful, but really, you aren't. For one
thing, I need to surround a building. Wifi probably won't shoot though
industrial sized refrigerators. I'm quite sure I need outdoor antennas.
Second, I need some range.

I've done wifi in the hourse. I've done high power wifi with homemade
antennas for on the road use. I just haven't tried to saturate the
outside of a building with clean wifi.

Rich wrote:
> By a $39.00 linksys wirless router and hook it to a internet line. WRT54G
>
>
>
>
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> > A simple mom and pop store is looking into setting up WIFI for an RV
> > park (back of facility) and customers on two sides that would access
> > the wifi from outside the store. The wifi is to attract users to the
> > store rather than to set up a business.
> >
> > Here is my guestimate of what would be required, though I'm looking for
> > good suggestions. Note that this should run without a PC present other
> > than to set it up.
> >
> > Take the dsl and feed it to a router such as di-804hv. [I've had good
> > luck with both DLink and SMC gear, with DLink providing better
> > support.] Now I have 4 ports For each side of the building,connect a
> > high power wap like Senao NL-2611 CB3 Plus. I like the idea that they
> > are powered over the ethernet since they means only one walwart in the
> > system. On each outside wall, a flat pannel antenna such as
> > <http://www.wlanparts.com/c=MmRUC0UWukuF059HF7R8OJrBy/product/PA24-13>
> >
> > I'd like the user about 200ft away to access the system with a low
> > power wifi card. I've done easily twice that distance using a 250mw
> > card and a homemade biquad, so I am assuming the reciprocal would be
> > true.
> >
> > One last thing...Is there a way to prevent users on one side of the
> > building from accessing their wap, going through the router, then
> > hacking a user on a different wap connected to the router. That is
> > other than the users making sure file sharing is turned off.
> >

Set up two units on two different channels. one front one back.
You can't exceed the power.





<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> I know you are trying to be helpful, but really, you aren't. For one
> thing, I need to surround a building. Wifi probably won't shoot though
> industrial sized refrigerators. I'm quite sure I need outdoor antennas.
> Second, I need some range.
>
> I've done wifi in the hourse. I've done high power wifi with homemade
> antennas for on the road use. I just haven't tried to saturate the
> outside of a building with clean wifi.
>
> Rich wrote:
> > By a $39.00 linksys wirless router and hook it to a internet line.
WRT54G
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> > > A simple mom and pop store is looking into setting up WIFI for an RV
> > > park (back of facility) and customers on two sides that would access
> > > the wifi from outside the store. The wifi is to attract users to the
> > > store rather than to set up a business.
> > >
> > > Here is my guestimate of what would be required, though I'm looking
for
> > > good suggestions. Note that this should run without a PC present other
> > > than to set it up.
> > >
> > > Take the dsl and feed it to a router such as di-804hv. [I've had good
> > > luck with both DLink and SMC gear, with DLink providing better
> > > support.] Now I have 4 ports For each side of the building,connect a
> > > high power wap like Senao NL-2611 CB3 Plus. I like the idea that they
> > > are powered over the ethernet since they means only one walwart in the
> > > system. On each outside wall, a flat pannel antenna such as
> > > <http://www.wlanparts.com/c=MmRUC0UWukuF059HF7R8OJrBy/product/PA24-13>
> > >
> > > I'd like the user about 200ft away to access the system with a low
> > > power wifi card. I've done easily twice that distance using a 250mw
> > > card and a homemade biquad, so I am assuming the reciprocal would be
> > > true.
> > >
> > > One last thing...Is there a way to prevent users on one side of the
> > > building from accessing their wap, going through the router, then
> > > hacking a user on a different wap connected to the router. That is
> > > other than the users making sure file sharing is turned off.
> > >
>

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>A simple mom and pop store is looking into setting up WIFI for an RV
>park (back of facility) and customers on two sides that would access
>the wifi from outside the store. The wifi is to attract users to the
>store rather than to set up a business.

Good plan. What's the budget (in dollars)?

>Here is my guestimate of what would be required, though I'm looking for
>good suggestions. Note that this should run without a PC present other
>than to set it up.

Ok, so everything has to be inside the wireless router. No problem.
Various version of the WRT54G replacement firmware have built in
wireless hotspot software. I've been tinkering with DD-WRT which has
Chilispot hotspot software inside:
http://wrt-wiki.bsr-clan.de/index.php?title=Chillispot
http://www.chillispot.org
Most of the local wireless hotspots use EWRT.
http://www.portless.net/menu/ewrt/
There's also Sputnik firmware for the WRT54G.
http://www.sputnik.com/products/aps/linksys_wrt.html
In addition, there are some stand along products offered by DLink:
http://www.dlink.com/products/category.asp?cid=2&sec=0
(scroll down to hot spot gateways at bottom).

>Take the dsl and feed it to a router such as di-804hv. [I've had good
>luck with both DLink and SMC gear, with DLink providing better
>support.] Now I have 4 ports For each side of the building,connect a
>high power wap like Senao NL-2611 CB3 Plus. I like the idea that they
>are powered over the ethernet since they means only one walwart in the
>system.

Lay off the high transmit power. You create an "alligator" which is a
system with a big mouth and small ears. Your overpowered transmitter
will be heard much farther than users can get into the system. The
high power access points don't hear any better than the low power
versions. The ideal is where the range in both directions is
symmetrical.

>On each outside wall, a flat pannel antenna such as
><http://www.wlanparts.com/c=MmRUC0UWukuF059HF7R8OJrBy/product/PA24-13>

Time for some math. Those are 13dBi antennas with a -3dB beamwidth of
35 degrees (see data sheet and pattern). That means, to cover a 180
degree wall (back of building), you'll need 5 of these. To cover a
full 360 degrees, you'll need 10 of these antennas. Now, are you sure
you really want such high gain?

>I'd like the user about 200ft away to access the system with a low
>power wifi card.

Are you supplying the card? Are you supplying the card with an
external or attached antenna? Are you supplying anything?

Is the user in a window or trying to shoot through the aluminium wall
of the camper/trailer? They might have a chance at 200ft though the
window, but forget it going through the wall of the camper/trailer.
Think outside (rooftop) antenna.

Also, got any trees in the way? Every campground I've ever been in is
literally overgrown with trees (for privacy). 2.4GHz doesn't like to
go through trees or bushes.

>I've done easily twice that distance using a 250mw
>card and a homemade biquad, so I am assuming the reciprocal would be
>true.

Maybe. It really depends on the topography, location, folliage, and
interference. Interference is critical and unfortunately
unpredictable. If you did your 200ft test on the ground, you probably
were not high enough to pickup much interference. However, put the
same system at rooftop level, and you'll hear the world.

>One last thing...Is there a way to prevent users on one side of the
>building from accessing their wap, going through the router, then
>hacking a user on a different wap connected to the router. That is
>other than the users making sure file sharing is turned off.

Yes. The WRT54G and many access points have a "client protection"
feature. Linksys misnames is "AP protection" but they're the same.
What happens is that all the clients can only direct traffic through
the router and on to the internet. No client can connect to or see
any other client. It's designed for exactly what you're thinking and
will prevent client to client connections, attacks, file sharing, and
local game networks.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>Time for some math. Those are 13dBi antennas with a -3dB beamwidth of
>35 degrees (see data sheet and pattern). That means, to cover a 180
>degree wall (back of building), you'll need 5 of these. To cover a
>full 360 degrees, you'll need 10 of these antennas. Now, are you sure
>you really want such high gain?

Forgotta paragraph. What you want is called a sector antenna. These
have fairly high gain, very narrow vertical radiation angles, and very
wide horizontal radiation angles. See:
http://www.superpass.com
For example, a 120 degree (horizontal) sector antenna, with a gain of
about 12dBi will have a vertical radiation pattern of about 14
degrees.
http://www.superpass.com/2400-2483M_120.html
That's rather narrow and has to be carefully positions. However, it
won't take 5 antennas to do the job and you won't be sending most of
your RF into the sky and into the ground.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

http://www.freeantennas.com



(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> A simple mom and pop store is looking into setting up WIFI for an RV
> park (back of facility) and customers on two sides that would access
> the wifi from outside the store. The wifi is to attract users to the
> store rather than to set up a business.
>
> Here is my guestimate of what would be required, though I'm looking for
> good suggestions. Note that this should run without a PC present other
> than to set it up.
>
> Take the dsl and feed it to a router such as di-804hv. [I've had good
> luck with both DLink and SMC gear, with DLink providing better
> support.] Now I have 4 ports For each side of the building,connect a
> high power wap like Senao NL-2611 CB3 Plus. I like the idea that they
> are powered over the ethernet since they means only one walwart in the
> system. On each outside wall, a flat pannel antenna such as
> <http://www.wlanparts.com/c=MmRUC0UWukuF059HF7R8OJrBy/product/PA24-13>
>
> I'd like the user about 200ft away to access the system with a low
> power wifi card. I've done easily twice that distance using a 250mw
> card and a homemade biquad, so I am assuming the reciprocal would be
> true.
>
> One last thing...Is there a way to prevent users on one side of the
> building from accessing their wap, going through the router, then
> hacking a user on a different wap connected to the router. That is
> other than the users making sure file sharing is turned off.

Now we're onto something. Taking a look at the layout, a 90 degree
sector would work out best. This particular building has fuel pumps in
the front with lanes on either side, so the wifi zone would need to be
past the traffic zone. There is an above ground fuel tank that would
set one limit. Users would stilll have to be in the 100ft to 200ft
zone. The angle required is quite small, like 3 degrees so
http://www.superpass.com/SPDG16F2.html
http://www.superpass.com/SPDG18F2.html
If the setup is done as a loss-leader, I like the idea that the users
will have to be parked in a certain area. This increases the guilt
factor.

Let's ignore the RV park at the moment. This still leaves a few
questions. How much gain is enough? Horizontal or vertical
polarization? [I know the high gain omni directional antennas that some
use will be vertically polarized, but I think the PCMCIA cards are
horizonally polarized. I don't know the polarization of notebooks with
built in antennas.]

My preference is still to get with a router and individual waps. The
store has an absentee owner. I think a camera on one of the router
ports so that the owner could observe his store would seal the deal.

BTW, unless Cisco has cleaned things up, I stay away from Linksys gear.
In the past, the support was crap.




Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
> >Time for some math. Those are 13dBi antennas with a -3dB beamwidth of
> >35 degrees (see data sheet and pattern). That means, to cover a 180
> >degree wall (back of building), you'll need 5 of these. To cover a
> >full 360 degrees, you'll need 10 of these antennas. Now, are you sure
> >you really want such high gain?
>
> Forgotta paragraph. What you want is called a sector antenna. These
> have fairly high gain, very narrow vertical radiation angles, and very
> wide horizontal radiation angles. See:
> http://www.superpass.com
> For example, a 120 degree (horizontal) sector antenna, with a gain of
> about 12dBi will have a vertical radiation pattern of about 14
> degrees.
> http://www.superpass.com/2400-2483M_120.html
> That's rather narrow and has to be carefully positions. However, it
> won't take 5 antennas to do the job and you won't be sending most of
> your RF into the sky and into the ground.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558