Router Questions

This is a cisco or router question, but I posted this in related
groups and got all of the way to what I need to do to resolve my
issue, but not how to actually do it (nobody would respond after
this). If anybody can help, I would be very greatful!

What I want to do:

I am trying to find the best way to failover my internet connections.
I have two networks that both have an internet connection (completely
different ISPs for redundancy). At each location we have a Cisco 2801
Router connected to the internet, and a Cisco 2601 connected to the
frame. We currently do not use the internet connection at our second
location (want to get it up and running as soon as we can), and the
only way that location gets to the internet is over our T1 frame.

My question was, how can I setup the Cisco 2801 as the primary route
for our internet connection (as already setup at our first location)
but failover to the Cisco 2600 on the frame if the internet goes down
at either location? We currently use static routes, and wonder if
setting up dynamic routing is the ONLY option. Also, if I have to
use dynamic routes, is there a way to setup which path is the primary
path, and which is the backup or failover?

Here is a basic layout of our network:

Cisco 2600---Network A
| \
| Cisco 2801
| \
Frame| Internet
| /
| Cisco 2801
| /
Cisco 2600---Network B

The answer I received is as follows:

What you can do would be to setup a backup default route w/ a lower
metric that point out the frame (you would do this on both routers on
the frame) so that should the internet connection go down, there would
be a route that allows you to go out through the Frame {ie- ip route
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 Serial0/0 (Frame) 200 (metric) }

To have your network traffic go across the internet, you would
essentially need to do the same thing as above (with a backup route),
but would need to setup an IPSEC tunnel between the two routers "in
the event of..."

My new questions is:

It was said that we should set up a backup default route with a lower
metric that points out the frame. Is there a command for backup
default ip routes? Would the 200 metric used in the previous example
be the correct metric to use? I don't know if there is even a metric
setup for the default route. I'm sorry for my lack of knowledge and
experience. This is the first time I have actually implemented any
configuration like this and just want it to work correctly.

Thank you for your help. It is very appreciated!

"Robert Jacobs" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> I am trying to find the best way to failover my internet connections.
> I have two networks that both have an internet connection (completely
> different ISPs for redundancy).

Different ISPs don't give you dedundancy,..it gives you problems and actually
prevents redundancy. All you get is two lines,...which is not the same thing as
two *rudundant* lines. You really should have consulted with the 1st ISP before
you went out and got a 2nd one,...they would have told you how to properly
approach this stuff,...that's their job,...it is part of what ISP's are for.

To have redundancy you need to have both lines from the same ISP.
Both lines come into the same router.
Using routing protocols (I believe usually IGRP) the two lines are load
balanced.
The ISP has to perform this (not you), becuase the Router at each end of the
line (your end & the ISP's end) have to be configured to *work together*.

We run a pair of 'merged" T1 lines this way. If one line goes down, we may run a
bit slower,..but we keep running.

--
Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com

The views expressed (as annoying as they are, and as stupid as they sound), are
my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft, or anyone else associated
with me, including my cats.
-----------------------------------------------------

> To have redundancy you need to have both lines from the same ISP.
> Both lines come into the same router.
> Using routing protocols (I believe usually IGRP) the two lines are load
> balanced.
> The ISP has to perform this (not you), becuase the Router at each end of the
> line (your end & the ISP's end) have to be configured to *work together*.

This makes sense, but it would be more relevant if we were needing
redundancy to a single location. However, we are trying to get a
separate internet connection at our second location for disaster
recovery. For instance, we could have gone with the same ISP at the
second location, but we want to know that if for some reason there is
a wide spread problem with our current ISP (even with the lines that
provided by this ISP) we would have a second ISP (a wireless provider
that doesn't use any of our current ISPs lines) to provide complete
redundancy. We aren't just "approaching this stuff", we are following
regulations set by SOX and our parent company. Due to the fact that
we now have this internet connection in place (as of today), and a
router waiting to be implemented with the correct configuration, does
anybody know if there is a command for backup default ip routes?
Would the 200 metric used in the previous example (on the previous
post) be the correct metric to use? I don't know if there is even a
metric setup for the default route.

Thank you for any help you can provide!

"Robert Jacobs" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
> we now have this internet connection in place (as of today), and a
> router waiting to be implemented with the correct configuration, does
> anybody know if there is a command for backup default ip routes?
> Would the 200 metric used in the previous example (on the previous
> post) be the correct metric to use? I don't know if there is even a
> metric setup for the default route.

If you have multiple pathes on the LAN to get to a particular location, then
Dynamic Routing Protocols would do it automatically,...it would "just work".
Heck, I think just simple RIP would do it. The problem is that the toplogy of
the LAN has to have redundant pathes built into it. This also, as far as I
know, only works internally (within the autonomous system). The Internet is an
"unknown" route by definition, and follows the router's "Gateway of Last
Resort" which if I remember properly is always static. The bottom line I guess
here is that there is no way to do what you are asking in the exact type of
situation you have at hand,..at least within my knowledge level. It's a good way
to create a nasty "routing loop" if you aren't careful.

If there is a way the people who specialize in the routers are the only ones who
can help. If you aren't getting clear answers from them,...then that is a hint
that the answer may not be what you are hoping.

--
Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com

The views expressed (as annoying as they are, and as stupid as they sound), are
my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft, or anyone else associated
with me, including my cats.
-----------------------------------------------------

If money was no issue I´ll go with BGP routing and separate ISP´s and get me
my own AS (Autonomous Numbers) number.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johan Engdahl
CCSA, CCSE, CCA, MCP | johan AT firewall1 DOT nu | http://www.firewall1.nu

"Robert Jacobs" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
>> To have redundancy you need to have both lines from the same ISP.
>> Both lines come into the same router.
>> Using routing protocols (I believe usually IGRP) the two lines are load
>> balanced.
>> The ISP has to perform this (not you), becuase the Router at each end of
>> the
>> line (your end & the ISP's end) have to be configured to *work together*.
>
> This makes sense, but it would be more relevant if we were needing
> redundancy to a single location. However, we are trying to get a
> separate internet connection at our second location for disaster
> recovery. For instance, we could have gone with the same ISP at the
> second location, but we want to know that if for some reason there is
> a wide spread problem with our current ISP (even with the lines that
> provided by this ISP) we would have a second ISP (a wireless provider
> that doesn't use any of our current ISPs lines) to provide complete
> redundancy. We aren't just "approaching this stuff", we are following
> regulations set by SOX and our parent company. Due to the fact that
> we now have this internet connection in place (as of today), and a
> router waiting to be implemented with the correct configuration, does
> anybody know if there is a command for backup default ip routes?
> Would the 200 metric used in the previous example (on the previous
> post) be the correct metric to use? I don't know if there is even a
> metric setup for the default route.
>
> Thank you for any help you can provide!
>

"Johan Engdahl" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> If money was no issue I´ll go with BGP routing and separate ISP´s and get me
> my own AS (Autonomous Numbers) number.

That's what we do, except that it is all one ISP. I didn't think it was
possible (or at least very practical) to do with 2 ISP's. Since we do it all
with one ISP, and they "technically" are the ones who own the addresses
involved, it uses their own AS#.

--
Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com

The views expressed (as annoying as they are, and as stupid as they sound), are
my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft, or anyone else associated
with me, including my cats.
-----------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry guys. I wish I understood what you were talking about, but
I don't. All I know is there IS a way to set a backup default route.
I can setup all internet info to go out one interface, and I can then
move it to all go out another interface. The guy from the cisco group
told me to use a backup default route, but never eloborated on how to
do this. I really just need to know how to set priority of the route
using metrics. If nobody can help, I understand. I've seen it done
before, just never had to actually implement it. I'll figure it out
myself if nobody can help. Thanks though for all of your responses.

I welcome input from others, but I don't think a metric is going to matter. It
will not use the second route if the device related to the first route is still
"alive" (burning electricity),...the fact that a link "upstream" doesn't do
anything doesn't make any difference. Route decisions (without routing
protocols) are made based on whatever the "next hop" device is,...a second or
third hop away is irrelevant. As long as the next hop router is alive and
detectable the route is considered valid,...regaurdless if the path doesn't go
any further beyond that. Dynamic Routing Protocols (RIP, BGP, IRGP, etc )
overcome that by having all the routers communicate with each other and keep
each other aprised of what is happening beyond what they can see independently
on their own.

You may need to bring in outside help,...a live human that can physically be
there.

--
Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com

The views expressed (as annoying as they are, and as stupid as they sound), are
my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft, or anyone else associated
with me, including my cats.
-----------------------------------------------------

"Robert Jacobs" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> I'm sorry guys. I wish I understood what you were talking about, but
> I don't. All I know is there IS a way to set a backup default route.
> I can setup all internet info to go out one interface, and I can then
> move it to all go out another interface. The guy from the cisco group
> told me to use a backup default route, but never eloborated on how to
> do this. I really just need to know how to set priority of the route
> using metrics. If nobody can help, I understand. I've seen it done
> before, just never had to actually implement it. I'll figure it out
> myself if nobody can help. Thanks though for all of your responses.
>

> You may need to bring in outside help,...a live human that can physically be
> there.

This will probably be the case. Thanks for your help. I wish there
was a better (or an easier) way, but I guess you have to do what you
have to do to get it working the way you want. I just don't know how
hard it will be to enable routing protocols on all of our routers that
are already setup completely static.

Thanks again...

Do you think that using VRRP (Virtual Router Redundancy Protocol) on
the 2 frame routers would do the trick? Setup a Master/Backup Setup
on each of the frame routers to send all internet data to one port and
then, if down, send all data over another port? I don't know if VRRP
uses the physical interface's status as the factor for switching to
the secondary route, or if it actually detects that there is no
connections available past the interface.

http://www.imagestream.com/VRRP_WhitePaper.PDF Pages 12 and 18-19