The Router Blues..

I finally went out a bought a new router. Yet this is the 6th new
router in less then 2 years now! I'm a router expert now after
configuring more than a dozen over these in the last few years now. I
did a firmware update on my last Netgear router, and I suspect that it
screwed my remote access up. Hence no one could connect to my FTP,
HTTP, or SSH servers.

I've tried various models of LinkSys, Netgear, D-link, and Belkin. By
far the Belkin was the biggest piece of shit I've even seen, followed
very closely by a LinkSys router. Firmware upgrades have a 0-10 history
of completely ether leaving the router worse then when I started, or
turning it into a doorstop!

It's not too much that these routers are not good for consumer use, it's
more that I'm using it as a muti-port forwarding for running servers in
my personal arsenal. The average person just using it as a secure
multi-net device, wouldn't even know that there is a problem, because
they aren't using the advanced features that they claim they have on the
box. God help the guy who actually holds these companies responsible
for what is says it "does" on the package. I questioned the tech on the
phone about why these advanced features don't work as advertised, they
don't give me answers, only.. "please return the product to the store".

I figured out that the standard method of operating for these router
companies is as follows:

1) Make the new hardware as fast as possible, just to get it on the self.
2) Barely finish the firmware, that barely works on the new router.
3) Once the customers start calling in with problems, fix the remaining
problems and bugs that they knew existed, but didn't make it into the
finished product.

This model works because most all of the customers simply don't use all
the features like port forwarding. A real shame if you ask me,
something that cost near 200 dollars should be "finished" when it's put
on the self at the store.

Anyway..

New router is a D-Link DI-624M with MIMO technology. The MINO is a new
kind of antenna. Router is B,G,super G, and pre-N. Still doesn't seam
to reach my "dead" zones in my daughters room, and the reception is
still weak at best. However, it's working for now. Advanced features
and all. D-Link routers have the reputation of the signal quality going
down the tubes over time, and you have to unplug your router once a
month to do a reset of the wireless signal. I wonder how long this one
is going to last.

So, I've tested my network by going to remote sites, and coming back to
see if I can get in from remote. It appears to be working. The Netgear
router had apparently screwed up the network routing so much that it
even reached out to a sbcglobal routers and screwed them too. Once the
new router was put in, it seams to be slowly fixing itself, and I'll be
testing tonight for more info.

"The router blues"..

Take Care everyone, and thanks all of you for your help on this.

-Richard

Richard Ragon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:htUae.93$zu.28
@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com:

> all. D-Link routers have the reputation of the signal quality going
> down the tubes over time, and you have to unplug your router once a
> month to do a reset of the wireless signa

Hmmm...

I hold no brief for D-Link, but this is not my experience, nor have I
experienced any problems with port forwarding etc. My current D-Link
based network has worked fine since 2003. I can't remember the last
time I had a problem - perhaps 18 months ago?

I am however waiting for the rash of so-called 'pre-N' models to be
replaced by the real thing, at which point I will upgrade. At the
moment there is litle incentive to do so.

--

Richard Perkin
To email me, change the AT in the address below
richard.perkinATmyrealbox.com

It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it
is. If you don't, it's its. Then too, it's hers. It isn't her's.
It isn't our's either. It's ours, and likewise yours and theirs.
-- Oxford University Press, Edpress News

My Linksys wireless router went without problems non stop 24/7 365 since
2001 and finally burned out. So I wonder if you're even protecting the
equipment properly by doing what amounts to just plugging the router into
an electrical wall outlet and it's taking the hits from other household
appliances switching on and off all the time spiking the lines and could be
casing the router to go defective.

And I am not taking about some surge protector power strip lying on the
floor and is plugged into the wall outlet as some kind of protection.

Duane

I have had my Linksys BEFSR11 (one WAN port, one LAN port) for about 5 years
now - 7 x 24 x 365 ... I have it with the current firmware and it's running
like a champ!!

I did pay about $120 for it back then ...

"Richard Ragon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:htUae.93$(E-Mail Removed)...
>I finally went out a bought a new router. Yet this is the 6th new router
>in less then 2 years now! I'm a router expert now after configuring more
>than a dozen over these in the last few years now. I did a firmware update
>on my last Netgear router, and I suspect that it screwed my remote access
>up. Hence no one could connect to my FTP, HTTP, or SSH servers.
>
> I've tried various models of LinkSys, Netgear, D-link, and Belkin. By far
> the Belkin was the biggest piece of shit I've even seen, followed very
> closely by a LinkSys router. Firmware upgrades have a 0-10 history of
> completely ether leaving the router worse then when I started, or turning
> it into a doorstop!
>
> It's not too much that these routers are not good for consumer use, it's
> more that I'm using it as a muti-port forwarding for running servers in my
> personal arsenal. The average person just using it as a secure multi-net
> device, wouldn't even know that there is a problem, because they aren't
> using the advanced features that they claim they have on the box. God
> help the guy who actually holds these companies responsible for what is
> says it "does" on the package. I questioned the tech on the phone about
> why these advanced features don't work as advertised, they don't give me
> answers, only.. "please return the product to the store".
>
> I figured out that the standard method of operating for these router
> companies is as follows:
>
> 1) Make the new hardware as fast as possible, just to get it on the self.
> 2) Barely finish the firmware, that barely works on the new router.
> 3) Once the customers start calling in with problems, fix the remaining
> problems and bugs that they knew existed, but didn't make it into the
> finished product.
>
> This model works because most all of the customers simply don't use all
> the features like port forwarding. A real shame if you ask me, something
> that cost near 200 dollars should be "finished" when it's put on the self
> at the store.
>
> Anyway..
>
> New router is a D-Link DI-624M with MIMO technology. The MINO is a new
> kind of antenna. Router is B,G,super G, and pre-N. Still doesn't seam to
> reach my "dead" zones in my daughters room, and the reception is still
> weak at best. However, it's working for now. Advanced features and all.
> D-Link routers have the reputation of the signal quality going down the
> tubes over time, and you have to unplug your router once a month to do a
> reset of the wireless signal. I wonder how long this one is going to
> last.
>
> So, I've tested my network by going to remote sites, and coming back to
> see if I can get in from remote. It appears to be working. The Netgear
> router had apparently screwed up the network routing so much that it even
> reached out to a sbcglobal routers and screwed them too. Once the new
> router was put in, it seams to be slowly fixing itself, and I'll be
> testing tonight for more info.
>
> "The router blues"..
>
> Take Care everyone, and thanks all of you for your help on this.
>
> -Richard

In article <htUae.93$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard Ragon
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> I finally went out a bought a new router. Yet this is the 6th new
> router in less then 2 years now! I'm a router expert now after
> configuring more than a dozen over these in the last few years now. I
> did a firmware update on my last Netgear router, and I suspect that it
> screwed my remote access up. Hence no one could connect to my FTP,
> HTTP, or SSH servers.

six routers and all had the same problem?

sounds like pebkac to me.

<snip>

> So, I've tested my network by going to remote sites, and coming back to
> see if I can get in from remote. It appears to be working. The Netgear
> router had apparently screwed up the network routing so much that it
> even reached out to a sbcglobal routers and screwed them too.

i find this rather difficult to believe.

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:46:53 GMT, Richard Ragon <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>I finally went out a bought a new router. Yet this is the 6th new
>router in less then 2 years now! I'm a router expert now after
>configuring more than a dozen over these in the last few years now.
(...)

Have you ever considered separating the router part of the puzzle from
the wireless part?

There are several advantages in your situation.
1. You can install more than one wireless access point to improve the
coverage. Since the access points have few complications, you should
not run into router related bugs. Also, you can purchase somewhat
cheaper wireless routers and use them as access points (ignore WAN
port, disable DHCP server, and set to unused IP address).
2. If you have complex router requirements, perhaps a Cisco,
Netscreen, Sonicwall, or other fancy router would be more appropriate.
The feature set on these high end routers are much better than what is
found in most cheapo wireless routers.
3. Most high end routers have dual flash memory for firmware. When
you load the new flash, the old flash is still in half the memory.
When you're sure the new flash is working, then a single command
switches to the active flash image. No way to easily turn it into a
brick.

As for firmware updates, every last lousy router and wireless router
I've ever purchased has needed a firmware update on arrival. My
guess(tm) is about 50 assorted routers this year. I have never turned
one into a brick. However, I've helped quite a few people recover
their flash. The usual mistake is trying to update the flash via a
wireless connection, or updating with the wrong flash image.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

nospam wrote:

> In article <htUae.93$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard Ragon
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>I finally went out a bought a new router. Yet this is the 6th new
>>router in less then 2 years now! I'm a router expert now after
>>configuring more than a dozen over these in the last few years now. I
>>did a firmware update on my last Netgear router, and I suspect that it
>>screwed my remote access up. Hence no one could connect to my FTP,
>>HTTP, or SSH servers.
>
>
> six routers and all had the same problem?
>
> sounds like pebkac to me.

Not all the same problems. God.. I love people who just plug in there
router, leave admin access at admin/admin, don't use a single advanced
feature, and then say, "it's working for me".

Each router has it's own issues and problems. Some of them minor, some
major. For example, the Netgear runs 24x7, and is loaded with advanced
features, however, it will not do port forwarding from public ports, to
a different private port. Lets say you have 2 web servers. both on
port 80. You can take WAN port 80 and forward that to a LAN IP port 80.
But you can't open WAN port 8180 and forward it to LAN IP port 80. This
can easily be done on any other router.

I got around this, by simply making one web server in my network, and
using accounts to samba over to another machine.. kind of a lot of work
in setup, but oh well.. the router didn't have any major flaws like the
others..


>>So, I've tested my network by going to remote sites, and coming back to
>>see if I can get in from remote. It appears to be working. The Netgear
>>router had apparently screwed up the network routing so much that it
>>even reached out to a sbcglobal routers and screwed them too.
>
>
> i find this rather difficult to believe.

So difficult that it took the SBC guys setting here 4 hours online with
the tech support crew that couldn't figure out why a traceroute would
get stuck in their network.. they left simply just throwing their hands
in the air...

Within plug-in in a new router, it solved the problems, however it took
about 48 hours to purge the tables in the network, and clear itself
after the offending router was replaced.

A real heartbreak of a frustrating problem because after you removed the
bad Netgear router here, the problem still remained within the SBC
network.. It took about 48 hours to clear.

-Richard

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:46:53 GMT, Richard Ragon <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I finally went out a bought a new router. Yet this is the 6th new
>>router in less then 2 years now! I'm a router expert now after
>>configuring more than a dozen over these in the last few years now.
>
> (...)
>
> Have you ever considered separating the router part of the puzzle from
> the wireless part?
>
> There are several advantages in your situation.
> 1. You can install more than one wireless access point to improve the
> coverage. Since the access points have few complications, you should
> not run into router related bugs. Also, you can purchase somewhat
> cheaper wireless routers and use them as access points (ignore WAN
> port, disable DHCP server, and set to unused IP address).

Yes. I have thought of that. Good point too. I was thinking of getting
more ports with a non wireless switch perhaps, and running eithernet
cables over to multiple AP's using those apple airport express units.
That thing worked great, but it wouldn't work as a WDS rely, only with a
eithernet plugged in.


> 2. If you have complex router requirements, perhaps a Cisco,
> Netscreen, Sonicwall, or other fancy router would be more appropriate.
> The feature set on these high end routers are much better than what is
> found in most cheapo wireless routers.

Excellent point, Jeff. At this point, I'm so disappointed with these
other routers.. I expected a lot more when you fork out 100-200 bucks!


> 3. Most high end routers have dual flash memory for firmware. When
> you load the new flash, the old flash is still in half the memory.
> When you're sure the new flash is working, then a single command
> switches to the active flash image. No way to easily turn it into a
> brick.

Excellent point again.


> As for firmware updates, every last lousy router and wireless router
> I've ever purchased has needed a firmware update on arrival. My

Hence this backs up my theory of the fact that it's BAD when it leaves
the shop and lands on the store shelf.. The problems are only fixed once
the customers start calling in with issues.. This is a lousy way to do
business!!!


> guess(tm) is about 50 assorted routers this year. I have never turned
> one into a brick. However, I've helped quite a few people recover
> their flash. The usual mistake is trying to update the flash via a
> wireless connection, or updating with the wrong flash image.

humm. Ok. Thanks..

And..

The saga continues...

Just discovered that my problems are NOT over still.. The very latest
is that I now have the new D-Link 624M.. And all appeared to be good.
However, my daughter just informed me that her internet was down. I
just tried to log in via 192.168.0.1, and it refuses. Great..

I tried my laptop, and yep.. No Network in sight..

So, since this is my 3rd Dink, and since I know D-links have a long
history of having to reset them every so often, I unplugged the router
and plugged it back in..

Bam. It's all working again.. That's just fucking great.. A new router
that I have to keep unplugging to reset every single week!!!

This is a NIMO turbo 4 antenna router (that doesn't get any better
reception than the others) that suppose to be B,G, and pre-N.. going
right back to the store once again I guess..


Should I even bother calling the tech support on this one??

-Richard

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:13:24 GMT, Richard Ragon <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>The saga continues...

It never ends.

>Just discovered that my problems are NOT over still.. The very latest
>is that I now have the new D-Link 624M.. And all appeared to be good.
>However, my daughter just informed me that her internet was down. I
>just tried to log in via 192.168.0.1, and it refuses. Great..

My BEFW11S4v4 hangs every few days. I've found that it's not anything
in the router but attacks from the internet. Try this test:
http://www.pcflank.com/exploits.htm
Mine hangs on two of the tests (forgot which ones). The interesting
part is that I also lose connectivity to the internal web browser when
it hangs, so the symptoms are similar.

>So, since this is my 3rd Dink, and since I know D-links have a long
>history of having to reset them every so often, I unplugged the router
>and plugged it back in..

The Linksys WRT54G routers I install in offices and coffee shops seem
to hold up better. No router exploits problems, no mysterious hangs,
and no random disconnects. Recommended.

>Bam. It's all working again.. That's just fucking great.. A new router
>that I have to keep unplugging to reset every single week!!!

Try searching Google for "di624 hangs". 1200 hits.
Now try "wrt54g hangs". 560 hits.
Obviously, not all are related to the router hanging in the manner you
experienced. However, this should give you a clue as to the extent of
the problem.

>This is a NIMO turbo 4 antenna router (that doesn't get any better
>reception than the others) that suppose to be B,G, and pre-N.. going
>right back to the store once again I guess..

Yep. Don't assume that all DLink products are this bad. They buy
from various manufactories in China with varying standards of quality
and reliability. The boxes may all look similar but it's the chipset,
firmware, and layout that make the difference.

>Should I even bother calling the tech support on this one??

Nope. There doesn't appear to be any firmware updates on the Dlink
web pile. You might try disabling the enhancements beyond 802.11g and
see if that helps. Otherwise, just teset to defaults and exchange it
for something else.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>>Just discovered that my problems are NOT over still.. The very latest
>>is that I now have the new D-Link 624M.. And all appeared to be good.
>>However, my daughter just informed me that her internet was down. I
>>just tried to log in via 192.168.0.1, and it refuses. Great..
>
>
> My BEFW11S4v4 hangs every few days. I've found that it's not anything
> in the router but attacks from the internet. Try this test:
> http://www.pcflank.com/exploits.htm
> Mine hangs on two of the tests (forgot which ones). The interesting
> part is that I also lose connectivity to the internal web browser when
> it hangs, so the symptoms are similar.

Humm.. interesting.

>>So, since this is my 3rd Dink, and since I know D-links have a long
>>history of having to reset them every so often, I unplugged the router
>>and plugged it back in..
>
>
> The Linksys WRT54G routers I install in offices and coffee shops seem
> to hold up better. No router exploits problems, no mysterious hangs,
> and no random disconnects. Recommended.

Perhaps I can try Linksys one more time then.



> Try searching Google for "di624 hangs". 1200 hits.
> Now try "wrt54g hangs". 560 hits.
> Obviously, not all are related to the router hanging in the manner you
> experienced. However, this should give you a clue as to the extent of
> the problem.

Oh boy.. maybe I should have done this for all routers for now on.

I thinking of starting a new website..

peiceofcraprouter.com Simply listing all the problems with the various
routers. I know I can get others to join in and help.. I know I can't
be the only one who actually puts these routers to the test, and finds
the faults.



>>This is a NIMO turbo 4 antenna router (that doesn't get any better
>>reception than the others) that suppose to be B,G, and pre-N.. going
>>right back to the store once again I guess..
>
>
> Yep. Don't assume that all DLink products are this bad. They buy
> from various manufactories in China with varying standards of quality
> and reliability. The boxes may all look similar but it's the chipset,
> firmware, and layout that make the difference.

real bummer



>>Should I even bother calling the tech support on this one??
>
>
> Nope. There doesn't appear to be any firmware updates on the Dlink
> web pile. You might try disabling the enhancements beyond 802.11g and
> see if that helps. Otherwise, just teset to defaults and exchange it
> for something else.

Thanks.. as usually, your comments are very useful. Thanks.

-Richard