Router Associations/Disassociations

Hi all,

I'm currently doing some testing with a wireless router.
Scenario:

WinXP SP2 (fully patched) <-> Router (Sweex LC000070) <-> CM.

Anyone know if it's generally common for wireless routers to disassociate
associated
clients after a certain period of client inactivity ?
The router I'm using dissassociates clients after an inactivity period of 5
minutes.
Approx 3 minutes later the clients reassociate with the router after doing
network broadcasts.
There are entries in the router log confirming this.
I'm also seeing alot of TCPIP 4201 errors in the System Log when the clients
reassociate.
"The system detected that network adapter blah..blah.. was connected to the
network, and has initiated normal operation over the network adapter."
TIA

Rgds, S

"Steve Berry" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>WinXP SP2 (fully patched) <-> Router (Sweex LC000070) <-> CM.

I guess CM is a cable modem. What make and model wireless card is in
your unspecified model WinXP SP2 computah? Is it a laptop?

>Anyone know if it's generally common for wireless routers to disassociate
>associated
>clients after a certain period of client inactivity ?

Normally, the router will not initiate a disconnect. The client is
the one that normally initiates a disconnect proceedure. This is
usually part of a power save feature.

However, there are a few exceptions. One is for MAC and IP filters.
Another is for WPA key exchange failure. In order for the router to
determine if the MAC, IP, or WPA keys are valid, it has to first allow
a connection. Once it has the connection, it can pass the necessary
information back and forth. Based on what it gets from the client, it
can continue with the connection, or disconnect.

Also, some routers that are customized for hot spots have the option
of ultra short DHCP lease times. Typical is 1 day, but for high
activity areas, 15 minutes would be much better. The idea is to keep
the DHCP lease table free of stale connections. Although I haven't
seen any routers that do this, this might also include a disconnect
feature, just in case the client is still hanging around but idle.
Dunno.

I'm not familiar with the Sweex LC000070.
http://www.sweex.com/product.asp?pid=448
You might wanna check if you have the latest firmware:
http://www.sweex.com/product.asp?pid=448&s=3

>The router I'm using dissassociates clients after an inactivity period of 5
>minutes.
>Approx 3 minutes later the clients reassociate with the router after doing
>network broadcasts.

Kinda sounds like the WPA key renewal interval. Are you using WPA?

>There are entries in the router log confirming this.
>I'm also seeing alot of TCPIP 4201 errors in the System Log when the clients
>reassociate.
>"The system detected that network adapter blah..blah.. was connected to the
>network, and has initiated normal operation over the network adapter."
>TIA
>
>Rgds, S
>
--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

HI Jeff,

Thanks for replying.
I *believe* the Wireless NIC is a fairly old Isine card ( you're
probably not familiar with them either ). Neither am I.
The NICs don't appear to have any user-alterable features whatsoever,
just it's capabilities are listed in Device Mangler. I'm guessing you
mean power-save on the NIC as opposed to power save on the OS ?
The router is setup to use association/connection control - but I get
the same results even if I use no association/connection.
Both client and router are using basic WEP at the mo'.
Clients are using static IPs. DHCP disabled on the router.
Think I might do a network sniff to see if can find the initiating
culprite
I'll try disabling WEP too.
Any other suggestions ?

Rgds, S

"reachnet" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>I *believe* the Wireless NIC is a fairly old Isine card ( you're
>probably not familiar with them either ). Neither am I.

Well, I've never heard of the company. However, they're still around:
http://www.isine.net
Check for the latest driver please.

>The NICs don't appear to have any user-alterable features whatsoever,
>just it's capabilities are listed in Device Mangler.

Ok, so you're using XP.
Control Panel -> Network
Find the Isine device icon. Right click and select properties. Under
the name of the device listed in the box should be a mess of settings.
All wireless cards have this feature.

>I'm guessing you
>mean power-save on the NIC as opposed to power save on the OS ?

No, both. If it's a laptop, going into standby mode will power down
the wireless card. Also check if the bios has some power saving
features.

>The router is setup to use association/connection control - but I get
>the same results even if I use no association/connection.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

>Both client and router are using basic WEP at the mo'.
>Clients are using static IPs. DHCP disabled on the router.
>Think I might do a network sniff to see if can find the initiating
>culprite
>I'll try disabling WEP too.
>Any other suggestions ?

I think you're on the right track. Find out who's initiating the
disconnect and you'll probably find the problem. I would suggest you
also try some substitution. Find another known working wireless
laptop and see if it does the same thing. If not, try a different
access point. That will help isolate the source.

>Rgds, S
--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "reachnet" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
>>I *believe* the Wireless NIC is a fairly old Isine card ( you're
>>probably not familiar with them either ). Neither am I.
>
> Well, I've never heard of the company. However, they're still around:
> http://www.isine.net
> Check for the latest driver please.

Officially, there isn't one - however I've since found out the NIC is using
a Marvell chipset.
There's drivers available for an ASUS NIC which uses the same chipset -
Tried that one and it seems to work ok. Prob still exists though.
>
>>The NICs don't appear to have any user-alterable features whatsoever,
>>just it's capabilities are listed in Device Mangler.
>
> Ok, so you're using XP.
> Control Panel -> Network
> Find the Isine device icon. Right click and select properties. Under
> the name of the device listed in the box should be a mess of settings.
> All wireless cards have this feature.

Err... nope - there's nothing there other than the expected Client for MS
Networks, File and Printer Sharing for MS Networks etc..
Are we looking at the same thing ?

>
>>I'm guessing you
>>mean power-save on the NIC as opposed to power save on the OS ?
>
> No, both. If it's a laptop, going into standby mode will power down
> the wireless card. Also check if the bios has some power saving
> features.

It's a desktop - I'll check the BIOS though.

>
>>The router is setup to use association/connection control - but I get
>>the same results even if I use no association/connection.
>
> I have no idea what you mean by that.

Sorry. MAC filtering - results are the same whether enabled or not.

>
>>Both client and router are using basic WEP at the mo'.
>>Clients are using static IPs. DHCP disabled on the router.
>>Think I might do a network sniff to see if can find the initiating
>>culprite
>>I'll try disabling WEP too.
>>Any other suggestions ?
>
> I think you're on the right track. Find out who's initiating the
> disconnect and you'll probably find the problem. I would suggest you
> also try some substitution. Find another known working wireless
> laptop and see if it does the same thing. If not, try a different
> access point. That will help isolate the source.
>

Scratching my head here.
Done a sniff with CommView and *assuming* I'm interpreting the output
correctly the disconnects are being initaited by the router (which also has
the latest firmware).
Hmm.. thanks anywayz, Jeff.


>>Rgds, S
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

S

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:20:56 GMT, "David Barrie"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Err... nope - there's nothing there other than the expected Client for MS
>Networks, File and Printer Sharing for MS Networks etc..
>Are we looking at the same thing ?

Probably not. Let's try again (this time with an XP box in front of
me). Find the wireless device icon in the Control Panel -> Network
thing. Right click and select "Properties". At the top of the window
should be the name of the card (or driver). Select "Configure". You
should have a bunch of choices including power mismanagment.

>Scratching my head here.
>Done a sniff with CommView and *assuming* I'm interpreting the output
>correctly the disconnects are being initaited by the router (which also has
>the latest firmware).

I think it's time for a substitute router to see if that's the cause.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:20:56 GMT, "David Barrie"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >Err... nope - there's nothing there other than the expected Client for MS
> >Networks, File and Printer Sharing for MS Networks etc..
> >Are we looking at the same thing ?
>
> Probably not. Let's try again (this time with an XP box in front of
> me). Find the wireless device icon in the Control Panel -> Network
> thing. Right click and select "Properties". At the top of the window
> should be the name of the card (or driver). Select "Configure". You
> should have a bunch of choices including power mismanagment.
>

Err.. nope - none of that is displayed at all, just General, Devices
and Resources tabs.
It's an old card/driver. I've got a feeling I'm fighting a lost cause
here with this hardware..

> >Scratching my head here.
> >Done a sniff with CommView and *assuming* I'm interpreting the output
> >correctly the disconnects are being initaited by the router (which also has
> >the latest firmware).
>
> I think it's time for a substitute router to see if that's the cause.

I agree. I think it's time for hardware updates all round.
Many thanks for your time Jeff. Much appreciated.
BTW do you have any experience of OpenWRT ?
I'm thinking of replacing the OS on this router, even though it's not
officially on OpenWRTs supported hardware list. The router's cheap, so
if I brick it, I brick it, no great loss.

>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Rgds, S

On 27 Mar 2006 16:03:27 -0800, "reachnet" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Err.. nope - none of that is displayed at all, just General, Devices
>and Resources tabs.

They have to be there. Looks like I missed a step. Let's try one
more time.

Control Panel -> Network
Find the wireless icon.
Right click and select properties.
Near the top is a box labelled "Connect Using".
Inside the box is the name of the card or driver.
To the right of the box is a button labelled "configure".
Hit it. You should have multiple pages of settings and features.

>It's an old card/driver. I've got a feeling I'm fighting a lost cause
>here with this hardware..

Probably. But throwing money at such problems is too easy and no fun.

>BTW do you have any experience of OpenWRT ?

Very little. The local free wireless LAN uses OpenWRT for the
hotspots. I tinkered a bit with OpenWRT. I started with Sveasoft,
bailed almost immediately, and then went with DD-WRT. It's a bit
erratic with the post-Beta daily hacks but the best I could find.

>I'm thinking of replacing the OS on this router, even though it's not
>officially on OpenWRTs supported hardware list. The router's cheap, so
>if I brick it, I brick it, no great loss.

I have no idea if the Sweex LC000070 will accept an alternative
firmware. I read one posting that claimed it's very similar to an SMC
router. Do some research on compatibility before trashing the
firmware.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 27 Mar 2006 16:03:27 -0800, "reachnet" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>Err.. nope - none of that is displayed at all, just General, Devices
>>and Resources tabs.
>
> They have to be there. Looks like I missed a step. Let's try one
> more time.
>
> Control Panel -> Network
> Find the wireless icon.
> Right click and select properties.
> Near the top is a box labelled "Connect Using".
> Inside the box is the name of the card or driver.
> To the right of the box is a button labelled "configure".
> Hit it. You should have multiple pages of settings and features.

Nope - you didn't miss a step. Just the three tabs I mentioned previously
and none of them display NIC settings - only Resource settings - Memory/IRQ
etc...Honestly.

>
>>It's an old card/driver. I've got a feeling I'm fighting a lost cause
>>here with this hardware..
>
> Probably. But throwing money at such problems is too easy and no fun.
>
>>BTW do you have any experience of OpenWRT ?
>
> Very little. The local free wireless LAN uses OpenWRT for the
> hotspots. I tinkered a bit with OpenWRT. I started with Sveasoft,
> bailed almost immediately, and then went with DD-WRT. It's a bit
> erratic with the post-Beta daily hacks but the best I could find.
>
>>I'm thinking of replacing the OS on this router, even though it's not
>>officially on OpenWRTs supported hardware list. The router's cheap, so
>>if I brick it, I brick it, no great loss.
>
> I have no idea if the Sweex LC000070 will accept an alternative
> firmware. I read one posting that claimed it's very similar to an SMC
> router. Do some research on compatibility before trashing the
> firmware.

I've no idea either. There's not really enough info available to make an
informed opinion. It'd probably be an all or nothing scenario if I went
through with it. I'll do some testing with another router and sleep on it.

Again many thanks Jeff.

>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Rgds, S