Repeater clients need direct access to router?

I have a Dlink G router for the first 100' (non-line of sight)
and a DLink G range extender for the second 100' (non-line of
sight). Clients in the repeater's range get good signal and
54Mbps speed, but they cannot get their ip address unless they
move to somewhere where they can see both the repeater AND the
router.

Even if I use fixed ip addresses, they can't get to the net
due to not being able to see the DNS or the default gateway
(both are the router).

What am I missing? The repeater should provide access to the
router for anyone in the repeater's range. It seems like a
chicken and egg problem that shouldn't be there.

"Tom wrote ...
> Perhaps the repeater isn't sending the correct DNS information.
> Are you able to ping the router outside the range of the router but within the range of the repeater?

No, I forgot to say that I cannot ping the router 192.168.0.1
from the area where people are talking to the repeater. The
repeater address is 192.168.0.30 and they can ping that no
problem.

> Try assigning the DNS, Gateway along with the IP address.

I did that, same result. Since they can't see the router
directly, none of this works.

Maybe the repeater is not set up correctly? I did master
resets on both to eliminate variables. Now both router and
repeater have no security and 'default' for the ssid.

> Jorabi wrote:
>
>> I have a Dlink G router for the first 100' (non-line of sight)
>> and a DLink G range extender for the second 100' (non-line of
>> sight). Clients in the repeater's range get good signal and
>> 54Mbps speed, but they cannot get their ip address unless they
>> move to somewhere where they can see both the repeater AND the
>> router.
>>
>> Even if I use fixed ip addresses, they can't get to the net
>> due to not being able to see the DNS or the default gateway
>> (both are the router).
>>
>> What am I missing? The repeater should provide access to the
>> router for anyone in the repeater's range. It seems like a
>> chicken and egg problem that shouldn't be there.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> http://www.tditcorp.com <-- keep your computer safe and secure the easy way!

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:46:37 GMT, "Jorabi" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>No, I forgot to say that I cannot ping the router 192.168.0.1
>from the area where people are talking to the repeater. The
>repeater address is 192.168.0.30 and they can ping that no
>problem.
(...)
>Maybe the repeater is not set up correctly? I did master
>resets on both to eliminate variables. Now both router and
>repeater have no security and 'default' for the ssid.

Repeaters (store and forward) work on the MAC address layer and know
nothing about IP addresses.

>>> What am I missing?

You're missing the model numbers of the wireless hardware involved.
Guesswork is no fun. Since I don't know the model number of the
repeater involved, I can't offer any specific settings. There are
also compatibility issues between different chipsets.

My guess is that you have a DWL-G800AP.
http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=267
I theory, all it needs is the SSID of your unspecified wireless router
connected to the internet. "default" won't work.
http://support.dlink.com/emulators/d.../wireless.html
Just run the wizard, do the site survey, check the SSID of your
unspecified wireless router, setup the encryption, and save your
settings.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Perhaps the repeater isn't sending the correct DNS information.
Are you able to ping the router outside the range of the router but
within the range of the repeater?

Try assigning the DNS, Gateway along with the IP address.


--
http://www.tditcorp.com <-- keep your computer safe and secure the easy
way!


Jorabi wrote:

> I have a Dlink G router for the first 100' (non-line of sight)
> and a DLink G range extender for the second 100' (non-line of
> sight). Clients in the repeater's range get good signal and
> 54Mbps speed, but they cannot get their ip address unless they
> move to somewhere where they can see both the repeater AND the
> router.
>
> Even if I use fixed ip addresses, they can't get to the net
> due to not being able to see the DNS or the default gateway
> (both are the router).
>
> What am I missing? The repeater should provide access to the
> router for anyone in the repeater's range. It seems like a
> chicken and egg problem that shouldn't be there.
>
>
>


--
http://www.tditcorp.com <-- keep your computer safe and secure the easy
way!

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote ...
>
> "Jorabi" wrote:
>
>>No, I forgot to say that I cannot ping the router 192.168.0.1
>>from the area where people are talking to the repeater. The
>>repeater address is 192.168.0.30 and they can ping that no
>>problem.
>>
>>Maybe the repeater is not set up correctly? I did master
>>resets on both to eliminate variables. Now both router and
>>repeater have no security and 'default' for the ssid.
>
> Repeaters (store and forward) work on the MAC address layer
> and know nothing about IP addresses.

OK. But I would like to know if the repeater can see the
router at the MAC level. Does the web interface to the repeater
tell me if it can see the router by using the Site Survey?

>>>> What am I missing?

> You're missing the model numbers of the wireless hardware involved.
> Guesswork is no fun. Since I don't know the model number of the
> repeater involved, I can't offer any specific settings. There are
> also compatibility issues between different chipsets.

Router: D-Link DI-524
Repeater: D-Link DWL-G710

> My guess is that you have a DWL-G800AP.
> I theory, all it needs is the SSID of your unspecified wireless
> router connected to the internet. "default" won't work.

I changed the SSID of the router and repeater back to 'default'
during trouble- shooting. Why won't the SSID 'default' work?

> Just run the wizard, do the site survey, check the SSID of your
> unspecified wireless router, setup the encryption, and save your
> settings.

1. Am I correct in assuming that the clients should not need to see
the router directly, and access to the repeater is all they need
to be able to get to the router?

2. How can I confirm that the repeater is seeing the router?

3. If the repeater is servicing clients at all, does that mean the
repeater can see the router by definition? Or is it possible to
see signal and data rates between the clients and the repeater
even if the repeater cannot see the router?

I have two DWL-7100AP's here, one running as an AP and the other as a
repeater. If the DWL-G710 is anything like the behavior of the DWL-7100AP
in "Repeater Mode" then the following may be of some help.

> OK. But I would like to know if the repeater can see the
> router at the MAC level. Does the web interface to the repeater
> tell me if it can see the router by using the Site Survey?

Yep. Just do a site survery and pick your router's SSID. Set the same WEP
encryption used by the intended router's SSID first, before picking the
SSID though. Reason being that once it's "activated" as a repeater, you
will no longer be able to get to it's web configuration over-the-air.

> 1. Am I correct in assuming that the clients should not need to see
> the router directly, and access to the repeater is all they need
> to be able to get to the router?
>
> 2. How can I confirm that the repeater is seeing the router?
>
> 3. If the repeater is servicing clients at all, does that mean the
> repeater can see the router by definition? Or is it possible to
> see signal and data rates between the clients and the repeater
> even if the repeater cannot see the router?

Assuming that the DWL-G710's behavior is similiar to the DWL-7100AP in
repeater modes with both bands (7100AP has 802.11a and 802.11g) then it
becomes transparant once activated. It won't be assigned an IP by the
router, so there won't be any reference to it in the routers DHCP tables.
It should be listed, by MAC address, on the router's status/connected
clients page though. Clients going through the repeater will still be
getting their DHCP from the router. Clients going through the repeater will
also appear connected the router no different than if they were connected
directly. (I.e., in the status/connected page of the router, you should see
all connected clients -- repeated or connecting directly.) This may be a
bad analogy, but perhaps think of the repeater as a "remote antenna". Its
simply just passing garbage in and out.

You'll probably still want to give the DWL-G710 a static IP, within it's
configuration, though. Doing so will allow you to re-configure it by
plugging an ethernet cable directly into it from a desktop/laptop. All you
have to do is manually temporarily configure the desktop/laptop ethernet
port IP's (pick an IP within the same subnet as the repeater, use same
subnet mask as repeater), fire up a web browser and point it towards the IP
that was set within the G710's config. That'll be the only way you can
communicate to the repeater once its up and running.

Anyway, thats the expected behavior at least for the DWL-7100APs -- with
both bands repeating. If I just repeat one band (say, 802.11a) and use the
other band (802.11g) as an ethernet/wireless bridge or even AP, I can still
get to it over-the-air. Once both bands are repeatings, I have to connect
an ethernet cable to get to it's config again. (Or reset it.)

It should be up and repeating easily by just:

1. Enter the WEP keys used by the intended repeated SSID on the router.

2. For your convience, pick an IP to use as a static IP and plug it into the
repeater LAN config. This will be so that you can access the repeater
again, with ethernet cable, without reseting it. To make sure there won't
be any possibility of an IP collision, make sure the IP you pick isn't
within the range of IP's that the router gives out.

3. Go to the repeater's wireless config page, do a site survery, and pick
the SSID. It'll reboot and should be passing traffic.

4. Verify it's up and running. Depending on your client driver software,
you may see two MAC addresses radiating the same SSID. Some drivers will
only show the MAC address putting out the strongest signal of the same SSID,
some show everything. My DLink driver shows all SSIDs, even if they are the
same. The router should list the repeater's MAC address in the
status/connected page. You won't see an IP for it in the DHCP table though.
If you have a laptop or PDA, try roaming between the router and repeater.
Once connected, it should seamlessly and automatically re-connect to the
strongest signal. Look at the connected MAC address on the laptop/PDA and
it should see it change automatically as you walk between the two. It may
take a minute or so sometimes to change over, but you can also "bump it" by
hitting re-connect.

Hope that helps some. The "transparant thing" also threw me off a little at
first when I setup a repeater.

Cheers,
-Eric

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:21:24 GMT, "Jorabi" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>OK. But I would like to know if the repeater can see the
>router at the MAC level. Does the web interface to the repeater
>tell me if it can see the router by using the Site Survey?

Yes. That's literally the only way you can tell by looking at the
various web pages. There's no signal strength, status, traffic
information, or anything better than the site survey.
http://support.dlink.com/emulators/dwlg710/home.html

>Router: D-Link DI-524
>Repeater: D-Link DWL-G710

Thanks.

>I changed the SSID of the router and repeater back to 'default'
>during trouble- shooting. Why won't the SSID 'default' work?

Because it's probably not the same SSID as that of the DI-524 router.
Change the SSID in the DWL-G710 to be whatever the DI-524 is using, or
just use the site survey thing to set it.

>1. Am I correct in assuming that the clients should not need to see
>the router directly, and access to the repeater is all they need
>to be able to get to the router?

Correct. That's how a repeater should work.

>2. How can I confirm that the repeater is seeing the router?

1. Site survey button. That's fairly insipid but that's all the
diagnostics the DWL-G710 seems to provide.

2. Ping the router or try to access the web setup in the DI-524
router.

>3. If the repeater is servicing clients at all, does that mean the
>repeater can see the router by definition? Or is it possible to
>see signal and data rates between the clients and the repeater
>even if the repeater cannot see the router?

Eric did a better job explaining how it should work than I could.
Basically this thing works by the SSID. Nothing else seems to be
necessary. Some repeaters insist on knowing the MAC addresses of the
connecting router and client radios, but not the DWL-G710. It
apparently works by simply setting the SSID and will repeat anything
it hears with that SSID. I have some nasty things to say about this
method of playing repeater, but I don't think it can be any simpler.


1. If you can see the DI-524 in the site survey.
2. and if everything has the same SSID.
3. and if you haven't done something weird like manually set the
default gateway on the client radios,
then it should work. More interesting is if you might have some chip
incompatibilites between the wireless part of the DI-524 and the
DWL-G710. It's 1am and I don't have time to lookup the chipsets.
Tomorrow, maybe.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# (E-Mail Removed)
# (E-Mail Removed) AE6KS

Thank you both, Eric and Jeff, for all the great information.
Eric, I too had been making incorrect assumptions about the
way the repeater should work. I will give these recommendations
a try at the customer site on Monday!

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:31:28 GMT, "Eric"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>This may be a
>bad analogy, but perhaps think of the repeater as a "remote antenna". Its
>simply just passing garbage in and out.

That's an accurate analogy. Using only the SSID for deciding if it
should play repeater, the stupid box will repeat every single last
lousy packet that it hears with the proper SSID. It probably has no
way to determine if it has already heard a specific packet, so putting
two of these in a small area on the same SSID should create havoc. I
don't see anything that looks like a spanning tree protocol so loops
are also possible. My guess(tm) is that only one of these can be used
on a particular SSID in a given RF space.

Efficiency is my main complaint. Clients that can see both the
repeater and the end point router will still have all their packets,
and all their packets back from the repeater, un-necessarily repeated
by the repeater. That's good for a 50% loss in delivered thruput. I
can also imagine a few contrived situations where the repeater will
constitute interference and thus an impediment to communications
rather than an aid. If this thing had a way to limit repetition(?) of
packets to only those clients that needed to use the repeater and some
form of STP, I wouldn't complain (as much).


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
> >This may be a
> >bad analogy, but perhaps think of the repeater as a "remote antenna".
Its
> >simply just passing garbage in and out.
>
> That's an accurate analogy. Using only the SSID for deciding if it
> should play repeater, the stupid box will repeat every single last
> lousy packet that it hears with the proper SSID. It probably has no
> way to determine if it has already heard a specific packet, so putting
> two of these in a small area on the same SSID should create havoc. I
> don't see anything that looks like a spanning tree protocol so loops
> are also possible. My guess(tm) is that only one of these can be used
> on a particular SSID in a given RF space.
>
> Efficiency is my main complaint. Clients that can see both the
> repeater and the end point router will still have all their packets,
> and all their packets back from the repeater, un-necessarily repeated
> by the repeater. That's good for a 50% loss in delivered thruput. I
> can also imagine a few contrived situations where the repeater will
> constitute interference and thus an impediment to communications
> rather than an aid. If this thing had a way to limit repetition(?) of
> packets to only those clients that needed to use the repeater and some
> form of STP, I wouldn't complain (as much).
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks. Didn't know if that would be a good analogy or not. :^)

I wondered the same thing about interference as well. When I set the SSID
to be repeated with the DWL-7100AP, it automatically configures itself to
broadcast on the same channel as the SSID being repeated. How much the two
are colliding, I have no idea. I picked the location for the repeater by
doing a quick improvised "site survery", basically just finding the
location where the intended SSID's signal has dropped off to where it is
just strong enough to keep the intended bit rate stable and placing the
repeater there. Checked and compared the throuput from going through the
repeater, going directly to initial SSID (with repeater still on), and going
directly to initial SSID (with repeater off). Noted no difference in
throuput, it looked great for all three. Out of curiosity, I may put the
repeater close to the repeated AP and see what happens. You would think it
would cause interference with each other?

Cheers,
-Eric