Reliable ADSL / web hosting / email?

Having just had a day of a duff ADSL (Eclipse, but seems to be a BT
fault which they are fixing slowly...) it has made me wonder.

Web hosting is easy, because all the internet providers have 24/7
people on call to fix downtime, so downtime rarely exceeds a few
hours.

Email less so, because you have to retrieve it, which you can't do if
you have no ADSL, unless you have GPRS/3G backup. The fact that the
firm hosting the POP box or whatever is running is of little help.

Paying one ISP for a "business" service is of little help too - a
single point of failure.

Where I live and work, in the countryside, where 3G is barely
available and GPRS/GSM is very weak, the best thing seem to be to get
two analog lines and get two different ISPs to provide a service on
these, and have a dual-WAN router.

Then, get your email done by perhaps one of these two ISPs.

Looking at the downtime we have had over the past few years, ZEN (my
home ISP) have had zero, Eclipse (work ISP) has had loads (especially
allocating random "fixed" IPs here and there), but the biggest issues
have been local BT ones.

The funny thing is that we have an ISDN PBX, plus 1 analog line for
the ADSL, but can't get ADSL over ISDN. We would be better off ripping
out the ISDN, and running *two* analog lines, each with a separate
ADSL service. Unfortunately our ISDN PBX is working rather well...

Currently we get incoming emails filtered by Messagelabs, which works
well (except for a sh1tty control panel, fit for a Symantec business)
and they can send them to one of two email servers, one at work and
one at home. Each of those servers also hosts the company website. We
use UKservers (Virtualnames) for the DNS control panel and this has
been very good as it allows us to switch www and email servers
quickly. This setup has worked well - until the actual ADSL feed dies
Then you are down to a laptop running mobile internet Or a
router which can take a 3G stick radio.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Peter <occassionally-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Having just had a day of a duff ADSL (Eclipse, but seems to be a BT
>fault which they are fixing slowly...) it has made me wonder.

I'm not a fan of Eclipse - I did some work for a customer a while back
and they had (probably still have) a "business" grade connection from
Eclipse - turns out that Eclipses idea of business grade is just more
GB per month and not to actually use the elevated services (ex 20:1)
over the BT Wholesale network - so their upload was stuck at 448Kb/sec...
(20cn exchange).

>Web hosting is easy, because all the internet providers have 24/7
>people on call to fix downtime, so downtime rarely exceeds a few
>hours.

There are also web hosting providers independant of connectivity providers
(but getting fewer these days)

>Email less so, because you have to retrieve it, which you can't do if
>you have no ADSL, unless you have GPRS/3G backup. The fact that the
>firm hosting the POP box or whatever is running is of little help.

Same for email - you could even host email with one provider, web with
another and connectivity with a third...

>Paying one ISP for a "business" service is of little help too - a
>single point of failure.

And a single JCB can ruin lots of peoples day at once... No matter what
service they're using..

>Where I live and work, in the countryside, where 3G is barely
>available and GPRS/GSM is very weak, the best thing seem to be to get
>two analog lines and get two different ISPs to provide a service on
>these, and have a dual-WAN router.

A very prudent move if the business will afford it (and lets face it -
if you're employing more than half a dozen people why not?)

However - you're still stuck with the JCB scenario. Those cables even
to different ISPs will still be in the same duct or overhead set of wires.

>Then, get your email done by perhaps one of these two ISPs.

Or separate...

>Looking at the downtime we have had over the past few years, ZEN (my
>home ISP) have had zero, Eclipse (work ISP) has had loads (especially
>allocating random "fixed" IPs here and there), but the biggest issues
>have been local BT ones.

So if possible, use an LLU ISP for one connection and a BT Wholesale
reseller for the other... I've done this a few times for my customers. Yo
still have the JCB scenario, but hopefully it ends at the exchange
(but you never can tell)

>The funny thing is that we have an ISDN PBX, plus 1 analog line for
>the ADSL, but can't get ADSL over ISDN. We would be better off ripping
>out the ISDN, and running *two* analog lines, each with a separate
>ADSL service. Unfortunately our ISDN PBX is working rather well...

BT won't support ADSL over ISDN, even though it's technically possible
(and common in Germany for example)

You could port your number(s) into a VoIP platform and run VoIP over
one of the ADSL lines.

>Currently we get incoming emails filtered by Messagelabs, which works
>well (except for a sh1tty control panel, fit for a Symantec business)
>and they can send them to one of two email servers, one at work and
>one at home. Each of those servers also hosts the company website. We
>use UKservers (Virtualnames) for the DNS control panel and this has
>been very good as it allows us to switch www and email servers
>quickly. This setup has worked well - until the actual ADSL feed dies
> Then you are down to a laptop running mobile internet Or a
>router which can take a 3G stick radio.

I live/work in ruralistan too - but backup sceanrios aren't hard to
setup - either 3G or a 2nd ADSL line to backup up a leased line, etc.
Most small business won't go for a leased line though as the precieved
benefit isn't worth it for them - however you get SLAs, and better than
they they're symetrical - ideal for remote VPN connections. 1:1 contention
and properly unlimited data too... (providing you pick a good ISP to host
the leased line with)

Not sure what you're actually after though If recomendations
or suggestions, then I'd suggest a leased line using EFM technology
(delivered on copper), migrate your Eclipse connection to another ISP,
look for an independant web & email host and off you go...

Gordon

Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>Peter <occassionally-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>Having just had a day of a duff ADSL (Eclipse, but seems to be a BT
>>fault which they are fixing slowly...) it has made me wonder.
>
>I'm not a fan of Eclipse - I did some work for a customer a while back
>and they had (probably still have) a "business" grade connection from
>Eclipse - turns out that Eclipses idea of business grade is just more
>GB per month and not to actually use the elevated services (ex 20:1)
>over the BT Wholesale network - so their upload was stuck at 448Kb/sec...
>(20cn exchange).

Same as me. Apparently this cannot be improved upon without the
exchange being upgraded. Same with ZEN (same exchange in this case).
We would like more than 448k, for site-site VPN stuff, etc.

>>Web hosting is easy, because all the internet providers have 24/7
>>people on call to fix downtime, so downtime rarely exceeds a few
>>hours.
>
>There are also web hosting providers independant of connectivity providers
>(but getting fewer these days)
>
>>Email less so, because you have to retrieve it, which you can't do if
>>you have no ADSL, unless you have GPRS/3G backup. The fact that the
>>firm hosting the POP box or whatever is running is of little help.
>
>Same for email - you could even host email with one provider, web with
>another and connectivity with a third...

Sure, but what I was getting at is that downtime at any "ISP" is going
to be far less of a problem than downtime anywhere downstream. An
"ISP" cannot afford major downtime - they will go bust.

>>Paying one ISP for a "business" service is of little help too - a
>>single point of failure.
>
>And a single JCB can ruin lots of peoples day at once... No matter what
>service they're using..
>
>>Where I live and work, in the countryside, where 3G is barely
>>available and GPRS/GSM is very weak, the best thing seem to be to get
>>two analog lines and get two different ISPs to provide a service on
>>these, and have a dual-WAN router.
>
>A very prudent move if the business will afford it (and lets face it -
>if you're employing more than half a dozen people why not?)
>
>However - you're still stuck with the JCB scenario. Those cables even
>to different ISPs will still be in the same duct or overhead set of wires.

Yes; not a lot one can do.

>>Then, get your email done by perhaps one of these two ISPs.
>
>Or separate...

That's what we currently have. It is a relic from when we used to our
own antispam (using TMDA) which eventually got overwhelmed under the
onslaught of 1k-10k spams per day.

>>Looking at the downtime we have had over the past few years, ZEN (my
>>home ISP) have had zero, Eclipse (work ISP) has had loads (especially
>>allocating random "fixed" IPs here and there), but the biggest issues
>>have been local BT ones.
>
>So if possible, use an LLU ISP for one connection and a BT Wholesale
>reseller for the other... I've done this a few times for my customers. Yo
>still have the JCB scenario, but hopefully it ends at the exchange
>(but you never can tell)

What is the benefit of the two different ISP types?

>>The funny thing is that we have an ISDN PBX, plus 1 analog line for
>>the ADSL, but can't get ADSL over ISDN. We would be better off ripping
>>out the ISDN, and running *two* analog lines, each with a separate
>>ADSL service. Unfortunately our ISDN PBX is working rather well...
>
>BT won't support ADSL over ISDN, even though it's technically possible
>(and common in Germany for example)

Yes, I know.

>You could port your number(s) into a VoIP platform and run VoIP over
>one of the ADSL lines.

The very last thing I would want, in the countryside, is to run
voice/fax over the internet

Maybe if one was running a call centre, VOIP is the way to go but you
still want some real physical BT lines.

>>Currently we get incoming emails filtered by Messagelabs, which works
>>well (except for a sh1tty control panel, fit for a Symantec business)
>>and they can send them to one of two email servers, one at work and
>>one at home. Each of those servers also hosts the company website. We
>>use UKservers (Virtualnames) for the DNS control panel and this has
>>been very good as it allows us to switch www and email servers
>>quickly. This setup has worked well - until the actual ADSL feed dies
>> Then you are down to a laptop running mobile internet Or a
>>router which can take a 3G stick radio.
>
>I live/work in ruralistan too - but backup sceanrios aren't hard to
>setup - either 3G or a 2nd ADSL line to backup up a leased line, etc.

What you cannot (easily) sort out over 3G is anything needing a fixed
IP, so you won't get WWW and you won't get an email server up and
running. That's why we use UKservers, because one just needs a laptop
with GPRS to get to their control panel and point www and email to
different IPs.

In fact Messagelabs should automatically fallover their output feed to
a 2nd email server but they don't seem to do it reliably.

>Most small business won't go for a leased line though as the precieved
>benefit isn't worth it for them - however you get SLAs, and better than
>they they're symetrical - ideal for remote VPN connections. 1:1 contention
>and properly unlimited data too... (providing you pick a good ISP to host
>the leased line with)

A chap in our village went for a 2mbit/sec DSL - £11k with Mistral,
IIRC, a few years ago. But it is still another copper pair, and I
gather his downtime is horrid. A bit of water in the junction box on
the pole...

>Not sure what you're actually after though If recomendations
>or suggestions, then I'd suggest a leased line using EFM technology
>(delivered on copper), migrate your Eclipse connection to another ISP,
>look for an independant web & email host and off you go...

I was just ranting on Perhaps wondering if I missed something.

Our average bandwidth needs are minimal. In fact we run our www server
on a 448k ADSL uplink, with no perf issues at all (big PDFs are
redirected to one of the ISP's free webspace ).

It's also interesting to realise where the major downtime comes from.
It's not the ISP - unless they are really crap, like Clara were when I
was with them years ago.

It also appears that one can do all kinds of clever stuff, but all of
it needs somebody reasonably competent to be around when something
breaks. This is a problem in a small company, if the said person is on
holiday when something breaks. Probably the nearest one can get to
redundancy is two ISP feeds into a dual-wan router, like the Draytek
2955 I am putting in tomorrow.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Peter <occassionally-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>
>>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>Peter <occassionally-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>Having just had a day of a duff ADSL (Eclipse, but seems to be a BT
>>>fault which they are fixing slowly...) it has made me wonder.
>>
>>I'm not a fan of Eclipse - I did some work for a customer a while back
>>and they had (probably still have) a "business" grade connection from
>>Eclipse - turns out that Eclipses idea of business grade is just more
>>GB per month and not to actually use the elevated services (ex 20:1)
>>over the BT Wholesale network - so their upload was stuck at 448Kb/sec...
>>(20cn exchange).
>
>Same as me. Apparently this cannot be improved upon without the
>exchange being upgraded. Same with ZEN (same exchange in this case).
>We would like more than 448k, for site-site VPN stuff, etc.

You can get up to 832Kb/sec on any exchange (distance limited as usual
but my experience is that if your line is stable above 2Mb/sec then
you'll get 800Kb/sec upstream).

Don't let ISPs fob you off - all they need to do is move the line to
the elevated services - but not all ISPs support it as it does cost more.

(FWIW: I'm an Entanet reseller and all my business customers on 20CN
exchanges are setup this way - yes, it's is a little more expensive
though)

I'm pretty sure Zen supports it though - looking at their website you
need to move to "Office", or "Office Max" at £45 and £79 (+VAT I think)

Will have a look at the rest shorly.

Gordon

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Peter <occassionally-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>
>>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>Peter <occassionally-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>>>Web hosting is easy, because all the internet providers have 24/7
>>>people on call to fix downtime, so downtime rarely exceeds a few
>>>hours.
>>
>>There are also web hosting providers independant of connectivity providers
>>(but getting fewer these days)
>>
>>>Email less so, because you have to retrieve it, which you can't do if
>>>you have no ADSL, unless you have GPRS/3G backup. The fact that the
>>>firm hosting the POP box or whatever is running is of little help.
>>
>>Same for email - you could even host email with one provider, web with
>>another and connectivity with a third...
>
>Sure, but what I was getting at is that downtime at any "ISP" is going
>to be far less of a problem than downtime anywhere downstream. An
>"ISP" cannot afford major downtime - they will go bust.

Try telling that to some of the hosting companies and ISPs... Even the
bigger data centres have had downtime and servers and switches do fail
from time to time. No-one can guarantee 100% uptime, so you have to
work out what would be acceptable to you.

>>>Paying one ISP for a "business" service is of little help too - a
>>>single point of failure.
>>
>>And a single JCB can ruin lots of peoples day at once... No matter what
>>service they're using..
>>
>>>Where I live and work, in the countryside, where 3G is barely
>>>available and GPRS/GSM is very weak, the best thing seem to be to get
>>>two analog lines and get two different ISPs to provide a service on
>>>these, and have a dual-WAN router.
>>
>>A very prudent move if the business will afford it (and lets face it -
>>if you're employing more than half a dozen people why not?)
>>
>>However - you're still stuck with the JCB scenario. Those cables even
>>to different ISPs will still be in the same duct or overhead set of wires.
>
>Yes; not a lot one can do.
>
>>>Then, get your email done by perhaps one of these two ISPs.
>>
>>Or separate...
>
>That's what we currently have. It is a relic from when we used to our
>own antispam (using TMDA) which eventually got overwhelmed under the
>onslaught of 1k-10k spams per day.

If it's that bad, then employ better solutions, but you're using
messagelabs, so that ought to help, I guess.

>>>Looking at the downtime we have had over the past few years, ZEN (my
>>>home ISP) have had zero, Eclipse (work ISP) has had loads (especially
>>>allocating random "fixed" IPs here and there), but the biggest issues
>>>have been local BT ones.
>>
>>So if possible, use an LLU ISP for one connection and a BT Wholesale
>>reseller for the other... I've done this a few times for my customers. Yo
>>still have the JCB scenario, but hopefully it ends at the exchange
>>(but you never can tell)
>
>What is the benefit of the two different ISP types?

Not much - however with a bit of luck, the fibres coming out of the
exchange might just take 2 different paths - (reducing the JCB scenario)
however the chances of actually finding that out are somewhat slim. And
even if they're in the same duct, it's exchange equipment and 2 networks
operated by different companies - BT Wholesale on one hand and LLUco on
the other... Chances of them both failing at the same time... Hopefully
reduced...

>>>The funny thing is that we have an ISDN PBX, plus 1 analog line for
>>>the ADSL, but can't get ADSL over ISDN. We would be better off ripping
>>>out the ISDN, and running *two* analog lines, each with a separate
>>>ADSL service. Unfortunately our ISDN PBX is working rather well...
>>
>>BT won't support ADSL over ISDN, even though it's technically possible
>>(and common in Germany for example)
>
>Yes, I know.
>
>>You could port your number(s) into a VoIP platform and run VoIP over
>>one of the ADSL lines.
>
>The very last thing I would want, in the countryside, is to run
>voice/fax over the internet

I'm in the countryside and I do it all the time. It does take a little
bit of management though.

>Maybe if one was running a call centre, VOIP is the way to go but you
>still want some real physical BT lines.

You'll always have that with ADSL anyway (physical BT lines). I typically
arrange fall-over to the analogue lines carrying the ADSL should the
broadband fail.

>>>Currently we get incoming emails filtered by Messagelabs, which works
>>>well (except for a sh1tty control panel, fit for a Symantec business)
>>>and they can send them to one of two email servers, one at work and
>>>one at home. Each of those servers also hosts the company website. We
>>>use UKservers (Virtualnames) for the DNS control panel and this has
>>>been very good as it allows us to switch www and email servers
>>>quickly. This setup has worked well - until the actual ADSL feed dies
>>> Then you are down to a laptop running mobile internet Or a
>>>router which can take a 3G stick radio.
>>
>>I live/work in ruralistan too - but backup sceanrios aren't hard to
>>setup - either 3G or a 2nd ADSL line to backup up a leased line, etc.
>
>What you cannot (easily) sort out over 3G is anything needing a fixed
>IP, so you won't get WWW and you won't get an email server up and
>running. That's why we use UKservers, because one just needs a laptop
>with GPRS to get to their control panel and point www and email to
>different IPs.

You can get a fixed IP, and IPv6 over 3G too - you just need to know
where to look - e.g. www.aaisp.co.uk (and possibly 1 or 2 others) It's
not popular (nor cheap) yet, but I understand it does work and you can
fail-over from ADSL to 3G and keep the same IP address.

I'd not dream of running a web server behind ADSL these days though.

>In fact Messagelabs should automatically fallover their output feed to
>a 2nd email server but they don't seem to do it reliably.

I guess it depends on the size of the business to work out what's
right. I'll only suggest to a company to host their own mail server
when they have 2 good broadband lines (or preferably a leased line
and a broadband backup!) or where they might have a company "culture"
of emailing each other huge files... Certainly with small businesses
with a large mobile contingency (e.g. sales team on the road/worldwide)
then a hosted solution might be better...

>>Most small business won't go for a leased line though as the precieved
>>benefit isn't worth it for them - however you get SLAs, and better than
>>they they're symetrical - ideal for remote VPN connections. 1:1 contention
>>and properly unlimited data too... (providing you pick a good ISP to host
>>the leased line with)
>
>A chap in our village went for a 2mbit/sec DSL - £11k with Mistral,
>IIRC, a few years ago. But it is still another copper pair, and I
>gather his downtime is horrid. A bit of water in the junction box on
>the pole...

The last one I was involved with was just over £400 a month for 4 pairs
bonded - which yielded about 12Mb/sec. (symmetric) The ISP offered fibre
for not much more too. Install was more (c£3800 IIRC) but they offered
100Mb for under a grand a month. A lot will depend on where you are
(again), which ISP and the speed.

>>Not sure what you're actually after though If recomendations
>>or suggestions, then I'd suggest a leased line using EFM technology
>>(delivered on copper), migrate your Eclipse connection to another ISP,
>>look for an independant web & email host and off you go...
>
>I was just ranting on Perhaps wondering if I missed something.

Heh

>Our average bandwidth needs are minimal. In fact we run our www server
>on a 448k ADSL uplink, with no perf issues at all (big PDFs are
>redirected to one of the ISP's free webspace ).

It's a cheapskate solution and one I'd really not recommend - unless
you have the in-house expertise to maintain the server. Really, for a
tenner a month you can have a decent amount of space on a shared server -
you can even get a VPS for that if you shop around.

My take is that if a business can't afford that to maintain it's presence
then maybe it ought to give up on the Internet... What's that equate to
in terms of a salary?

It does piss me off no-end when business try to save a few pennies here
and there. What's the real cost in terms of stress and the potential
for lost sales, etc. if their online presence fails?

And try this - have a look at your website from a decent ADSL connection -
not in the office. It's not going to be as nippy as one hosted even on a
cheap provider. Google is using website speed and response times as part
of their ranking these days, so if a good Google rank is a "must-have"
then it's not going to happen...

>It's also interesting to realise where the major downtime comes from.
>It's not the ISP - unless they are really crap, like Clara were when I
>was with them years ago.
>
>It also appears that one can do all kinds of clever stuff, but all of
>it needs somebody reasonably competent to be around when something
>breaks.

There are plenty of people like me up and down the country who'll
understand your local conditions and know what's good in your area and
what night not be. Maybe a day a month of a contractors time will help
in the longer term?

> This is a problem in a small company, if the said person is on
>holiday when something breaks. Probably the nearest one can get to
>redundancy is two ISP feeds into a dual-wan router, like the Draytek
>2955 I am putting in tomorrow.

However if that router fails then you lose both lines.

But you need to draw the line somewhere..

My take is that if you're a small business who uses the Internet as part
of daily work, then unless you can afford a leased line, get a decent
connection from a niche ISP and be prepared to pay a little more for it -
because what you are then paying for is instant support so that when it
does go wrong at least you are in the know and dealing with a company
who actually cares and can prod BT, etc. There is some value in using a
2nd ADSL ISP, more if you can get another ISP who resells services via
a LLU carrier (not necessarily the LLU carriers directly!) Failing that,
then find out which 3G operator is the best in your area and use them.

And wont someone think of the JCB!

Gordon

Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>You can get a fixed IP, and IPv6 over 3G too - you just need to know
>where to look - e.g. www.aaisp.co.uk (and possibly 1 or 2 others) It's
>not popular (nor cheap) yet, but I understand it does work and you can
>fail-over from ADSL to 3G and keep the same IP address.

That's an interesting outfit; I have come across the name before. But
very pricey. Comparing ZEN's £47/m service (which gives 800k UP on a
20CN exchange) and 50GB max download (and no UP metering), the A&A
equivalent would be £172/m, the bulk of which is the daytime data
usage. To bring it down to ZEN's cost (which is about the max I would
pay) one needs to cap the download allowance to 10GB/m.

Their £2/m 3G backup is very interesting.

>I'd not dream of running a web server behind ADSL these days though.

IMHO it depends on the usage. For a small specialised B2B site, which
runs a few hundred MB per month, it is fine. If the site is efficient
like ours is, 448k works fine too. Obviously 800k would be better

>>Our average bandwidth needs are minimal. In fact we run our www server
>>on a 448k ADSL uplink, with no perf issues at all (big PDFs are
>>redirected to one of the ISP's free webspace ).
>
>It's a cheapskate solution and one I'd really not recommend - unless
>you have the in-house expertise to maintain the server.

The basic problem is that I don't see what can be done which does
*not* require any on-site expertise.

Web hosting is the simple bit; moving that off to some ISP would sort
that, as ISP (virtual server) downtime is very rare (they fix it
quick).

And we can deal with outgoing internet access by plugging a 3G stick
into the USB port on the 2955 router. The fallback should be
automatic.

What I don't have a good solution for is the email. If Messagelabs
offered POP boxes, that would be great. The problem is (a) I like
their effectiveness but (b) no ISP willing to host a POP box wants to
accept a feed from ML.

I spoke to ZEN today about this, and they can't really get their head
around it. They would want to simply take over all the ~30 domains
which I have registered and run the lot, which I don't want. I do like
the independence of having the domains and the DNS control panel
elsewhere. But switching stuff around on that control panel cannot be
done in an automated way when something packs up.

>My take is that if a business can't afford that to maintain it's presence
>then maybe it ought to give up on the Internet... What's that equate to
>in terms of a salary?

Probably a fair comment for a retail facing mail order business.

>However if that router fails then you lose both lines.
>
>But you need to draw the line somewhere..

It is easy to have a spare router with an identical config. We have
had that for years now, 2x Dlink 300G ADSL modem, 2 x Draytek 2900
router.

Now there is a BT fault, and the ISP (not ZEN) is damn slow in
hassling BT, which they seem to do only when I hassle them. I was
going to dump them after this "learning experience". To collect our
email, we now use a 3G laptop accessing the backup email server I have
at my house... which also runs the website. In the future we won't
need the 3G laptop because we will have 3G fallback on the LAN.

>My take is that if you're a small business who uses the Internet as part
>of daily work, then unless you can afford a leased line, get a decent
>connection from a niche ISP and be prepared to pay a little more for it -
>because what you are then paying for is instant support so that when it
>does go wrong at least you are in the know and dealing with a company
>who actually cares and can prod BT, etc. There is some value in using a
>2nd ADSL ISP, more if you can get another ISP who resells services via
>a LLU carrier (not necessarily the LLU carriers directly!) Failing that,
>then find out which 3G operator is the best in your area and use them.

I think a 2nd ISP (2 analog lines) is a great idea, but it offers
little over the 3G fallback option unless you are actually hosting
web/email with them, and *you* control the DNS so when one ISP (or his
BT line) goes down, you can get onto that DMS control panel and switch
the IPs to the other ISP.

And I haven't found any ISP willing to even discuss providing that
sort of service.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Peter <occassionally-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>
>>You can get a fixed IP, and IPv6 over 3G too - you just need to know
>>where to look - e.g. www.aaisp.co.uk (and possibly 1 or 2 others) It's
>>not popular (nor cheap) yet, but I understand it does work and you can
>>fail-over from ADSL to 3G and keep the same IP address.
>
>That's an interesting outfit; I have come across the name before. But
>very pricey. Comparing ZEN's £47/m service (which gives 800k UP on a
>20CN exchange) and 50GB max download (and no UP metering), the A&A
>equivalent would be £172/m, the bulk of which is the daytime data
>usage. To bring it down to ZEN's cost (which is about the max I would
>pay) one needs to cap the download allowance to 10GB/m.

Reassuringly expensive... What you're paying for is support and the true
cost of providing the service - not a service whereby you know that 5%
of your customers consume 95% of the bandwidth, so the remaining 95%
hopefully keep paying to cover the few abusers...

>Their £2/m 3G backup is very interesting.

Be aware that it's on Three - good if you have three coverage!

>>I'd not dream of running a web server behind ADSL these days though.
>
>IMHO it depends on the usage. For a small specialised B2B site, which
>runs a few hundred MB per month, it is fine. If the site is efficient
>like ours is, 448k works fine too. Obviously 800k would be better

Then move to the Zen office package I mentioned earlier...

But it's not just bandwidth - reliability/avalability, uptime... (and
maybe better someone else paying the electric bill than you ;-)

>>>Our average bandwidth needs are minimal. In fact we run our www server
>>>on a 448k ADSL uplink, with no perf issues at all (big PDFs are
>>>redirected to one of the ISP's free webspace ).
>>
>>It's a cheapskate solution and one I'd really not recommend - unless
>>you have the in-house expertise to maintain the server.
>
>The basic problem is that I don't see what can be done which does
>*not* require any on-site expertise.

Paying someone to manage it and/or hosting everything off-site takes
away the on-site requirement...

>Web hosting is the simple bit; moving that off to some ISP would sort
>that, as ISP (virtual server) downtime is very rare (they fix it
>quick).

It depends on the host... Most of the bigger (and some smaller) hosting
companies have had issues at one time or another... However they're rare
these days, but do read sites like The Register or Thinkbroadband to
get an idea of what sometimes goes on...

>And we can deal with outgoing internet access by plugging a 3G stick
>into the USB port on the 2955 router. The fallback should be
>automatic.

It usually is on the Drayteks - I've used that in the past. One client
didn't even realise recently they were running on backup until I told
them... (because I monitor their line)

>What I don't have a good solution for is the email. If Messagelabs
>offered POP boxes, that would be great. The problem is (a) I like
>their effectiveness but (b) no ISP willing to host a POP box wants to
>accept a feed from ML.

Really? I would, but you've not asked me... (Although I'd really
suggest using IMAP than POP these days)

However I'd have thought any "reseller" type account with a virtual
hosting provider would give you what you need and there are plenty
to choose from.

>I spoke to ZEN today about this, and they can't really get their head
>around it. They would want to simply take over all the ~30 domains
>which I have registered and run the lot, which I don't want. I do like
>the independence of having the domains and the DNS control panel
>elsewhere. But switching stuff around on that control panel cannot be
>done in an automated way when something packs up.

The "path of least resistance" type of thing - basically they have a model
that works for them and to do anything differently would cost them time
(and money) Thats when you need to look for something different.

I think you should leave the connectivity to the connectivity providers
and use a hosting company for hosting. Keep them separate.

>>My take is that if a business can't afford that to maintain it's presence
>>then maybe it ought to give up on the Internet... What's that equate to
>>in terms of a salary?
>
>Probably a fair comment for a retail facing mail order business.

OK - we're getting closer now. I hear a lot along the lines of:
"I'm losing £x,000 an hour by not having any Internet, what are you
going to do about it?" Most of it is panic, but can you put a figure on
how much you lose with no website? No office Internet? No email?

>>However if that router fails then you lose both lines.
>>
>>But you need to draw the line somewhere..
>
>It is easy to have a spare router with an identical config. We have
>had that for years now, 2x Dlink 300G ADSL modem, 2 x Draytek 2900
>router.

Good. Make sure there is documentation on how to perform the switch
over when you're not about... All part of your data backup plan in
general. (You regularly test your data backups, so you should regularly
test your Internet backup too)

>Now there is a BT fault, and the ISP (not ZEN) is damn slow in
>hassling BT, which they seem to do only when I hassle them. I was
>going to dump them after this "learning experience". To collect our
>email, we now use a 3G laptop accessing the backup email server I have
>at my house... which also runs the website. In the future we won't
>need the 3G laptop because we will have 3G fallback on the LAN.

Zen used to have a good reputation (and I used them myself initially) -
I wonder what's changed... However, I use Entanet myself and I recently
had an issue that then turned into a 4-day outage - mostly due to BT,
but I did feel that Enta could have tried harder, but further research
revealed that BT appears to be making life harder for their resellers to
actually get things done - so it's possible that Zen is being affected
here too.

A good blog to follow: http://revk.www.me.uk/ that's the chap from AAISP...

And going back to email - a hosted IMAP solution would let you access
email anywhere - via it's own webmail system (if supported), and via
mobile devices, laptops, desktops with all devices being able to see all
email folders, etc. - not think, "Ah, I used POP and that email is on that
PC, I'll need to go home to read it" sort of thing. POP is dead, use IMAP.

>>My take is that if you're a small business who uses the Internet as part
>>of daily work, then unless you can afford a leased line, get a decent
>>connection from a niche ISP and be prepared to pay a little more for it -
>>because what you are then paying for is instant support so that when it
>>does go wrong at least you are in the know and dealing with a company
>>who actually cares and can prod BT, etc. There is some value in using a
>>2nd ADSL ISP, more if you can get another ISP who resells services via
>>a LLU carrier (not necessarily the LLU carriers directly!) Failing that,
>>then find out which 3G operator is the best in your area and use them.
>
>I think a 2nd ISP (2 analog lines) is a great idea, but it offers
>little over the 3G fallback option unless you are actually hosting
>web/email with them, and *you* control the DNS so when one ISP (or his
>BT line) goes down, you can get onto that DMS control panel and switch
>the IPs to the other ISP.
>
>And I haven't found any ISP willing to even discuss providing that
>sort of service.

What your after is all solvable. You can run your own DNS (or at least
use a registrar that lets you manage the zone files), you can use a
hosting company to host your web site(s), and handle your email and do
all this completely independantly of an ISP who handles your connectivity.

And what you're after is a service provided by a lot of web design
companies - although some will ask for the domains to be imported to them,
not all will, and some will handle your email too. (But you might have
to pay for a new website ;-)

But your running a retail business - ~30 domains and a lot of
email with a big spam problem - big enough to pay over the odds
for messagelabs... Maybe it's time to move your ICT up a level from
home-brew to managed/hosted/"time to get a man in" ...

However, I think you're already doing the DNS, so probably have that
in-hand. A VPS can be had for about £15 a month and some will even come
with plesk or cPanel to allow you to manage email or websites. And/Or
you can use the services of an ICT support type person to maybe give
you some pointers or get you going.

I deal with bespoke and custom setups, and I'm not cheap, but I maintain
my own hosted servers (VPS and real) and can usually provide solutions
to meet most scenarios. There are many others like me, however I really
don't think that what you're after is particularly hard - solutions to
what you want are out there, and all they'll cost is your own time...

Search for cPanel hosting (or plesk hosting) and look for "reseller"
accounts - those will usually allow you to host multiple domains
and so on, and you can usually host both email and web on the same
reseller account. If you want to roll your own, get a VPS account -
e.g. http://www.bytemark.co.uk/ - their entry level is £15 a month and
for that you'll get 10GB of disk space, 0.5GB of RAM which ought to be
more than enough for your needs. You can run your own email directly on
that as well as the website. (And they now have their own control panel
software anyway, so it might even be easier)

It's all out there - just keep looking!

Gordon

Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>>>You can get a fixed IP, and IPv6 over 3G too - you just need to know
>>>where to look - e.g. www.aaisp.co.uk (and possibly 1 or 2 others) It's
>>>not popular (nor cheap) yet, but I understand it does work and you can
>>>fail-over from ADSL to 3G and keep the same IP address.
>>
>>That's an interesting outfit; I have come across the name before. But
>>very pricey. Comparing ZEN's £47/m service (which gives 800k UP on a
>>20CN exchange) and 50GB max download (and no UP metering), the A&A
>>equivalent would be £172/m, the bulk of which is the daytime data
>>usage. To bring it down to ZEN's cost (which is about the max I would
>>pay) one needs to cap the download allowance to 10GB/m.
>
>Reassuringly expensive... What you're paying for is support and the true
>cost of providing the service - not a service whereby you know that 5%
>of your customers consume 95% of the bandwidth, so the remaining 95%
>hopefully keep paying to cover the few abusers...

I spoke to them today. I need to look carefully at our *actual*
download usage. At their 5GB/month daytime limit, and with the 800k UP
speed (£10/month) and with a 3G card whose fixed IP will automatically
fall back to the ADSL IP if the ADSL goes down, it comes to ~
£45/month which is what ZEN charge for their Office package which also
has the 800k UP speed but has a 50GB download limit. But AA sound a
lot more flexible, as well as clued up. They can offer us a POP3 box
(into which we could feed the Messagelabs filtered emails) for
£1/month.

>>Now there is a BT fault, and the ISP (not ZEN) is damn slow in
>>hassling BT, which they seem to do only when I hassle them. I was
>>going to dump them after this "learning experience". To collect our
>>email, we now use a 3G laptop accessing the backup email server I have
>>at my house... which also runs the website. In the future we won't
>>need the 3G laptop because we will have 3G fallback on the LAN.
>
>Zen used to have a good reputation (and I used them myself initially) -
>I wonder what's changed... However, I use Entanet myself and I recently
>had an issue that then turned into a 4-day outage - mostly due to BT,
>but I did feel that Enta could have tried harder, but further research
>revealed that BT appears to be making life harder for their resellers to
>actually get things done - so it's possible that Zen is being affected
>here too.

I actually wrote the present ISP is *not* ZEN

I use ZEN at home and don't want to use them at work also because if
they have downtime, we will have no backups at all.

>A good blog to follow: http://revk.www.me.uk/ that's the chap from AAISP...

Interesting. He is a serious anorak I will read it when I have time

On Tue, 2011-11-01 at 18:02 +0000, Peter wrote:
> Where I live and work, in the countryside, where 3G is barely
> available and GPRS/GSM is very weak, the best thing seem to be to get
> two analog lines and get two different ISPs to provide a service on
> these, and have a dual-WAN router.

Being in the countryside, you're unlikely to have LLU? So your two links
to separate ISPs are still going through BT. I'm in a similar situation;
thankfully my two analogue lines are each connected to a different RAS —
which helps to avoid a SPOF. They are both with Andrews and Arnold,
rather than being with different ISPs. It means that I get a whole 2Mb/s
of combined bandwidth, which is load-balanced across the two lines.

In the absence of 3G (or even reliable 2G) as a backup, I've recently
joined the FON network (which doesn't require being a BT customer). That
should mean that if both lines *are* down I can still use a neighbour's
BTFON access point, make an l2tp tunnel to A&A and still have access to
my home range of IP addresses, albeit more slowly.

For email, my solution is to have boxes "out there" which act as
first-line MX hosts and do all the spam filtering, then deliver mail
directly to my server at home. After an outage, all I need to do is
flush the mail queue on my MX hosts.

As for the ISDN line, now that the two ADSL lines are proving to be
fairly reliable I'm about ready to ditch mine and use exclusively VoIP.
I'll set it to fall back to placing calls to the analogue lines when the
SIP client isn't connected, which should mean we don't miss incoming
calls even during an outage.

--
dwmw2

David Woodhouse <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>On Tue, 2011-11-01 at 18:02 +0000, Peter wrote:
>> Where I live and work, in the countryside, where 3G is barely
>> available and GPRS/GSM is very weak, the best thing seem to be to get
>> two analog lines and get two different ISPs to provide a service on
>> these, and have a dual-WAN router.
>
>Being in the countryside, you're unlikely to have LLU? So your two links
>to separate ISPs are still going through BT.

Yes. Same exchange too, in my case.

But 3G is separate.

>I'm in a similar situation;
>thankfully my two analogue lines are each connected to a different RAS —
>which helps to avoid a SPOF. They are both with Andrews and Arnold,
>rather than being with different ISPs. It means that I get a whole 2Mb/s
>of combined bandwidth, which is load-balanced across the two lines.

I have just sussed that A&A seem to be billing only for actual usage,
which is pretty good.

I have just gone over the 50GB with ZEN by 2.5GB (as a result of
various misadventures with syncing a stupid Ipad to the "i-cloud" too
many times) and they cut the account off for the rest of the month.

Paying for actual usage is a lot better, at the A&A rates.

>In the absence of 3G (or even reliable 2G) as a backup, I've recently
>joined the FON network (which doesn't require being a BT customer). That
>should mean that if both lines *are* down I can still use a neighbour's
>BTFON access point, make an l2tp tunnel to A&A and still have access to
>my home range of IP addresses, albeit more slowly.
>
>For email, my solution is to have boxes "out there" which act as
>first-line MX hosts and do all the spam filtering, then deliver mail
>directly to my server at home. After an outage, all I need to do is
>flush the mail queue on my MX hosts.

In a way, that is what I have too. One at work, one at home.

They are actually high-spec PCs, built some years ago with pricey SCSI
drives, etc, but actually could be little £100 4GB-SSD unix laptops...
and a laptop comes with a built in UPS

I have looked at replacing these two servers with something solid
state, and drawing less power, but my failure rate on desktop-grade
SSDs is currently running at 100%...

>As for the ISDN line, now that the two ADSL lines are proving to be
>fairly reliable I'm about ready to ditch mine and use exclusively VoIP.
>I'll set it to fall back to placing calls to the analogue lines when the
>SIP client isn't connected, which should mean we don't miss incoming
>calls even during an outage.

That's neat.

Can one get a reasonable PBX these days, which takes in two analog
lines? I have a Panasonic TEA308 at home... the good thing about ISDN,
for a very small office, is that if say only 1 person is at work, she
can put the other extension on "do not disturb" and then you cannot
get two concurrent calls. There is no obvious way to prevent 2
concurrent calls with an analog PBX.