Regulare ADSL unreliability in Norfolk

I know Norfolk is a big county ...

User in Kenninghall suffers regular line drops at random times between 05:30
and 07:10 every morning. Router re-syncs at a lower than normal rate -
about 1mbit/sec - and stays there until it is manually reboooted, when it
returns to its usual 3.5mbits/sec.

Have tried all the usual things - replace router, replace microfilter, test
with no phones connected, test from master socket. Also have router running
on a UPS and turn of all mains power to house, to eliminate any household
electrical appliances and to some extent any mains-borne interference.

ISP arranged for Openreach to attend - technician replaced master socket,
added RF3 filter, supplied new faceplate mcrofilter - but problem is still
present.

Problem did not occur on 22 April, 1 May, and 5 May; but we cannot relate
this to any local interference source (or rather, the lack of interference
on those dates).

Today; a user in Diss (10 miles away) experienced a re-sync at exactly the
same time as the user in Kenninghall - at 06:40 this morning. Same ISP.
Similar symptoms: line was syncing at 8128kbits/sec, and re-synced at about
4000kbits/sec. User is only a few hundred metres from the exchange.

I'm not yet considering a conspiracy theory: but it might be that this is RF
interference from a relatively distant source; and the ADSL connections are
susceptible because the phone lines are unbalanced or otherwise
exceptionally sensitive.

Has anybody else experienced line drops at these times:

16/04/2011 Saturday 07:10
17/04/2011 Sunday 07:02
18/04/2011 Monday 06:22
19/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
20/04/2011 Wednesday 06:37
21/04/2011 Thursday 05:32
22/04/2011 Friday no re-sync
23/04/2011 Saturday 05:50
24/04/2011 Sunday 05:59
25/04/2011 Monday 06:06
26/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
27/04/2011 Wednesday 05:30
28/04/2011 Thursday 05:34
29/04/2011 Friday 06:39
30/04/2011 Saturday 07:01
01/05/2011 Sunday no re-sync
02/05/2011 Monday 07:10
03/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40
04/05/2011 Wednesday 06:42
05/05/2011 Thursday no re-sync
06/05/2011 Friday 06:50
07/05/2011 Saturday 05:47
08/05/2011 Sunday 07:09
09/05/2011 Monday 05:33
10/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40

If so, please let me know where you are.

--
Graham J

Graham J wrote:

I am going to top post because what I have to say only marginally
refers to what you have posted, and yet the similarities are so great..

I am in Suffolk. I stared to get this behaviour.

I went through all the hoops, tried everything, got every joint re made,
swapped an E-side pair. Attenuation was improved . Sporadic rescynchs at
crap speed were not.

Then it stopped.

I had had tow engineer visits in tow weeks. Nether had fixed the
problem. Although both improved the line considerably!


Now I *conjecture* that actually what there as was a D-Slam fault, or an
exchange fault. Loose cable or summat.

BUT I had to go through the whole hoop jumping exercrcise before someone
at Openreach stuck something like a monitor on the line, looked at the
paperwork and said 'Hmm. Line is fine, tick. Customer premises fine.
Tick. Still showing high faults...Hmm. Charlie next time you are at XYZ
village, swap that card out will you?'


Nearly all the advice I got from each of the engineers was wrong, and
ditto the ISP.

They kept telling me it was something in the house, or the line, but it
wasn't.


The moral is, first of all double check your internal setup, not because
you haven't already, but so that it passes muster with Openreach.

Put another router on for two weeks - swap with mate?

Then escalate to the ISP and insist on engineer visits.
The ISP can see into BTs database enough to show that something is up.

I have had weirdness like this twice in the past. Each time it was
fixed, after reporting it, never did anyone tell me what was in fact wrong.

Now, I am deeply grateful, as for the prices of some phone calls, two
cups of coffee and a packet of biscuits, I had a pleseant hour
discussing Rugby with an engineer, and have about 50% more speed than I
ever had before. and its rock solid..for now.




> I know Norfolk is a big county ...
>
> User in Kenninghall suffers regular line drops at random times between 05:30
> and 07:10 every morning. Router re-syncs at a lower than normal rate -
> about 1mbit/sec - and stays there until it is manually reboooted, when it
> returns to its usual 3.5mbits/sec.
>
> Have tried all the usual things - replace router, replace microfilter, test
> with no phones connected, test from master socket. Also have router running
> on a UPS and turn of all mains power to house, to eliminate any household
> electrical appliances and to some extent any mains-borne interference.
>
> ISP arranged for Openreach to attend - technician replaced master socket,
> added RF3 filter, supplied new faceplate mcrofilter - but problem is still
> present.
>
> Problem did not occur on 22 April, 1 May, and 5 May; but we cannot relate
> this to any local interference source (or rather, the lack of interference
> on those dates).
>
> Today; a user in Diss (10 miles away) experienced a re-sync at exactly the
> same time as the user in Kenninghall - at 06:40 this morning. Same ISP.
> Similar symptoms: line was syncing at 8128kbits/sec, and re-synced at about
> 4000kbits/sec. User is only a few hundred metres from the exchange.
>
> I'm not yet considering a conspiracy theory: but it might be that this is RF
> interference from a relatively distant source; and the ADSL connections are
> susceptible because the phone lines are unbalanced or otherwise
> exceptionally sensitive.
>
> Has anybody else experienced line drops at these times:
>
> 16/04/2011 Saturday 07:10
> 17/04/2011 Sunday 07:02
> 18/04/2011 Monday 06:22
> 19/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 20/04/2011 Wednesday 06:37
> 21/04/2011 Thursday 05:32
> 22/04/2011 Friday no re-sync
> 23/04/2011 Saturday 05:50
> 24/04/2011 Sunday 05:59
> 25/04/2011 Monday 06:06
> 26/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 27/04/2011 Wednesday 05:30
> 28/04/2011 Thursday 05:34
> 29/04/2011 Friday 06:39
> 30/04/2011 Saturday 07:01
> 01/05/2011 Sunday no re-sync
> 02/05/2011 Monday 07:10
> 03/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 04/05/2011 Wednesday 06:42
> 05/05/2011 Thursday no re-sync
> 06/05/2011 Friday 06:50
> 07/05/2011 Saturday 05:47
> 08/05/2011 Sunday 07:09
> 09/05/2011 Monday 05:33
> 10/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40
>
> If so, please let me know where you are.
>

"Graham J" <graham@invalid> wrote in message news:4dc8ff4c$0$2515$(E-Mail Removed)...
>I know Norfolk is a big county ...
>
> User in Kenninghall suffers regular line drops at random times between 05:30 and 07:10 every morning. Router re-syncs at a lower
> than normal rate - about 1mbit/sec - and stays there until it is manually reboooted, when it returns to its usual 3.5mbits/sec.
>
> Have tried all the usual things - replace router, replace microfilter, test with no phones connected, test from master socket.
> Also have router running on a UPS and turn of all mains power to house, to eliminate any household electrical appliances and to
> some extent any mains-borne interference.
>
> ISP arranged for Openreach to attend - technician replaced master socket, added RF3 filter, supplied new faceplate mcrofilter -
> but problem is still present.
>
> Problem did not occur on 22 April, 1 May, and 5 May; but we cannot relate this to any local interference source (or rather, the
> lack of interference on those dates).
>
> Today; a user in Diss (10 miles away) experienced a re-sync at exactly the same time as the user in Kenninghall - at 06:40 this
> morning. Same ISP. Similar symptoms: line was syncing at 8128kbits/sec, and re-synced at about 4000kbits/sec. User is only a few
> hundred metres from the exchange.
>
> I'm not yet considering a conspiracy theory: but it might be that this is RF interference from a relatively distant source; and
> the ADSL connections are susceptible because the phone lines are unbalanced or otherwise exceptionally sensitive.
>
> Has anybody else experienced line drops at these times:
>
> 16/04/2011 Saturday 07:10
> 17/04/2011 Sunday 07:02
> 18/04/2011 Monday 06:22
> 19/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 20/04/2011 Wednesday 06:37
> 21/04/2011 Thursday 05:32
> 22/04/2011 Friday no re-sync
> 23/04/2011 Saturday 05:50
> 24/04/2011 Sunday 05:59
> 25/04/2011 Monday 06:06
> 26/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 27/04/2011 Wednesday 05:30
> 28/04/2011 Thursday 05:34
> 29/04/2011 Friday 06:39
> 30/04/2011 Saturday 07:01
> 01/05/2011 Sunday no re-sync
> 02/05/2011 Monday 07:10
> 03/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 04/05/2011 Wednesday 06:42
> 05/05/2011 Thursday no re-sync
> 06/05/2011 Friday 06:50
> 07/05/2011 Saturday 05:47
> 08/05/2011 Sunday 07:09
> 09/05/2011 Monday 05:33
> 10/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40
>
> If so, please let me know where you are.
>
> --
> Graham J

Perhaps you have something like this already in place, but I would use
http://f8lure.mouselike.org/ and set up some tests for ADSL users in the area
Include some BT Wholesale and LLU users. Add some users in a different area as control samples. If there is a correlation , the
graphs will be valuable evidence.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

"Graham J" <graham@invalid> wrote in message
news:4dc8ff4c$0$2515$(E-Mail Removed)...
>I know Norfolk is a big county ...
>
> User in Kenninghall suffers regular line drops at random times between
> 05:30 and 07:10 every morning. Router re-syncs at a lower than normal
> rate - about 1mbit/sec - and stays there until it is manually reboooted,
> when it returns to its usual 3.5mbits/sec.
>
> Have tried all the usual things - replace router, replace microfilter,
> test with no phones connected, test from master socket. Also have router
> running on a UPS and turn of all mains power to house, to eliminate any
> household electrical appliances and to some extent any mains-borne
> interference.
>
> ISP arranged for Openreach to attend - technician replaced master socket,
> added RF3 filter, supplied new faceplate mcrofilter - but problem is still
> present.
>
> Problem did not occur on 22 April, 1 May, and 5 May; but we cannot relate
> this to any local interference source (or rather, the lack of interference
> on those dates).
>
> Today; a user in Diss (10 miles away) experienced a re-sync at exactly the
> same time as the user in Kenninghall - at 06:40 this morning. Same ISP.
> Similar symptoms: line was syncing at 8128kbits/sec, and re-synced at
> about 4000kbits/sec. User is only a few hundred metres from the exchange.
>
> I'm not yet considering a conspiracy theory: but it might be that this is
> RF interference from a relatively distant source; and the ADSL connections
> are susceptible because the phone lines are unbalanced or otherwise
> exceptionally sensitive.
>
> Has anybody else experienced line drops at these times:
>
> 16/04/2011 Saturday 07:10
> 17/04/2011 Sunday 07:02
> 18/04/2011 Monday 06:22
> 19/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 20/04/2011 Wednesday 06:37
> 21/04/2011 Thursday 05:32
> 22/04/2011 Friday no re-sync
> 23/04/2011 Saturday 05:50
> 24/04/2011 Sunday 05:59
> 25/04/2011 Monday 06:06
> 26/04/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 27/04/2011 Wednesday 05:30
> 28/04/2011 Thursday 05:34
> 29/04/2011 Friday 06:39
> 30/04/2011 Saturday 07:01
> 01/05/2011 Sunday no re-sync
> 02/05/2011 Monday 07:10
> 03/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40
> 04/05/2011 Wednesday 06:42
> 05/05/2011 Thursday no re-sync
> 06/05/2011 Friday 06:50
> 07/05/2011 Saturday 05:47
> 08/05/2011 Sunday 07:09
> 09/05/2011 Monday 05:33
> 10/05/2011 Tuesday 06:40
>
> If so, please let me know where you are.


What ADSL Router modem are the two sites using? Is either user a gamer?

Peter Crosland

>

[snip]

> Perhaps you have something like this already in place, but I would use
> http://f8lure.mouselike.org/ and set up some tests for ADSL users in the
> area
> Include some BT Wholesale and LLU users. Add some users in a different
> area as control samples. If there is a correlation , the graphs will be
> valuable evidence.

I have 9 different tests running conncurrently with F8LURE, but they are
fairly widely spread across the country. They do show consistent failures
at similar times for some site; but not coincident to the minute, and
generally these occur between 1am and 3am when I suspect BT reboot their
routers.

This is how I spotted the coincidence this morning.

--
Graham J

"The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:iqbitl$s99$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Graham J wrote:
>
> I am going to top post because what I have to say only marginally refers
> to what you have posted, and yet the similarities are so great..
>
> I am in Suffolk. I stared to get this behaviour.
>
> I went through all the hoops, tried everything, got every joint re made,
> swapped an E-side pair. Attenuation was improved . Sporadic rescynchs at
> crap speed were not.
>
> Then it stopped.
>
> I had had two engineer visits in two weeks. Nether had fixed the problem.
> Although both improved the line considerably!
>
>
> Now I *conjecture* that actually what there as was a D-Slam fault, or an
> exchange fault. Loose cable or summat.
>
> BUT I had to go through the whole hoop jumping exercrcise before someone
> at Openreach stuck something like a monitor on the line, looked at the
> paperwork and said 'Hmm. Line is fine, tick. Customer premises fine. Tick.
> Still showing high faults...Hmm. Charlie next time you are at XYZ village,
> swap that card out will you?'
>
> Nearly all the advice I got from each of the engineers was wrong, and
> ditto the ISP.
>
> They kept telling me it was something in the house, or the line, but it
> wasn't.
> The moral is, first of all double check your internal setup, not because
> you haven't already, but so that it passes muster with Openreach.
>
> Put another router on for two weeks - swap with mate?
>
> Then escalate to the ISP and insist on engineer visits.
> The ISP can see into BTs database enough to show that something is up.
>
> I have had weirdness like this twice in the past. Each time it was fixed,
> after reporting it, never did anyone tell me what was in fact wrong.
>
> Now, I am deeply grateful, as for the prices of some phone calls, two cups
> of coffee and a packet of biscuits, I had a pleseant hour discussing Rugby
> with an engineer, and have about 50% more speed than I ever had before.
> and its rock solid..for now.
>
> [snip]

BT has made only one visit so far.

ISP is escalating it, promising to get BT to swap E-side and D-side pairs.
However they write:

"I dont think BT would entertain the idea of a DSLAM change as there is
potentially thousands of users connected to the same DSLAM at the exchange
and this connection is the only one seeing this particular pattern of drops"

My suspicion is that of the "potentially thousands of users" several ARE
experiencing the same drops, but there is nobody in BT looking at the
statistics to confirm this.

--
Graham J

[snip]

> What ADSL Router modem are the two sites using? Is either user a gamer?

Kenninghall site first used an Edimax AR-7064g+A - this showed the early
morning line drops but had no syslog facility. Now has a Vigor 2600 (quite
old) which generates syslog reports. Vigor router is more reliable and
slower (I think this is generally well known), and exhibits exactly the same
early morning line drops.

Diss site uses a brand new Vigor 2820n.

Neither user is a gamer.

--
Graham J

"Graham J" <graham@invalid> wrote in message
news:4dc96557$0$12164$(E-Mail Removed)...
> [snip]
>
>> Perhaps you have something like this already in place, but I would use
>> http://f8lure.mouselike.org/ and set up some tests for ADSL users in the
>> area
>> Include some BT Wholesale and LLU users. Add some users in a different
>> area as control samples. If there is a correlation , the graphs will be
>> valuable evidence.
>
> I have 9 different tests running conncurrently with F8LURE, but they are
> fairly widely spread across the country. They do show consistent failures
> at similar times for some site; but not coincident to the minute, and
> generally these occur between 1am and 3am when I suspect BT reboot their
> routers.
>
> This is how I spotted the coincidence this morning.

And in addition - I don't have any other users on the Kenninghall exchange.

Anybody here, perhaps?

--
Graham J

"Graham J" <graham@invalid> wrote in message
news:4dc96858$0$2516$(E-Mail Removed)...
> [snip]
>
>> What ADSL Router modem are the two sites using? Is either user a gamer?
>
> Kenninghall site first used an Edimax AR-7064g+A - this showed the early
> morning line drops but had no syslog facility. Now has a Vigor 2600
> (quite old) which generates syslog reports. Vigor router is more
> reliable and slower (I think this is generally well known), and exhibits
> exactly the same early morning line drops.
>
> Diss site uses a brand new Vigor 2820n.
>
> Neither user is a gamer.

It seems to me that you need to go back to basics and work systematically
through the usual tests with an alternative modem/router connected to the
test socket with all other kit disconnected. Although nothing can be ruled
out drops at the same time at diverse sites suggests that the problem may be
caused by radio interference because I can't think of anything else that
might affect a wide variety of sites. Unless high latency is vital then it
would be best to get interleaving turned on so that forward error correction
is enabled. My own experience with the Draytek ADSL performance has been
poor. Likewise Edimax. My line will not sync at more than 2500 with either.
Just changing to a 2Wire 2700HGV immediately gives an speed 1200 higher and
far better stability. There is nothing to stop you running the Draytek
behind the 2700 just as a router.

Peter Crosland

"Peter Crosland" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) o.uk...
> "Graham J" <graham@invalid> wrote in message
> news:4dc96858$0$2516$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> [snip]
>>
>>> What ADSL Router modem are the two sites using? Is either user a gamer?
>>
>> Kenninghall site first used an Edimax AR-7064g+A - this showed the early
>> morning line drops but had no syslog facility. Now has a Vigor 2600
>> (quite old) which generates syslog reports. Vigor router is more
>> reliable and slower (I think this is generally well known), and exhibits
>> exactly the same early morning line drops.
>>
>> Diss site uses a brand new Vigor 2820n.
>>
>> Neither user is a gamer.
>
> It seems to me that you need to go back to basics and work systematically
> through the usual tests with an alternative modem/router connected to the
> test socket with all other kit disconnected. Although nothing can be ruled
> out drops at the same time at diverse sites suggests that the problem may
> be caused by radio interference because I can't think of anything else
> that might affect a wide variety of sites. Unless high latency is vital
> then it would be best to get interleaving turned on so that forward error
> correction is enabled. My own experience with the Draytek ADSL performance
> has been poor. Likewise Edimax. My line will not sync at more than 2500
> with either. Just changing to a 2Wire 2700HGV immediately gives an speed
> 1200 higher and far better stability. There is nothing to stop you running
> the Draytek behind the 2700 just as a router.


If you read my original post you will see that I have done all the tests ou
have suggested. In addition I have run the router from a UPS so the whole
house's electrical power can be disconnected overnight.

These tests suggest the interference is by radio getting into the telephone
wires. The curiosity is that it is jut once per day, at times between 05:30
and 07:10; but not more predictably within that period.

--
Graham J