Recommended line speed for wi-fi

We're starting a small coffee shop with wi-fi for our customers. The
cable company is offering a 22 Mbps line and the phone company is
offering a 7 Mbps line for $30 a month less. Which should we take?
Typically, we expect less than 3 to 4 customers connecting at the same
time.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Dick Burkhart
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>We're starting a small coffee shop with wi-fi for our customers.

Permit me to offer my deepest sympathies and condolences.

>The
>cable company is offering a 22 Mbps line and the phone company is
>offering a 7 Mbps line for $30 a month less. Which should we take?

Cable. Speed is everything. However, it's not the download speed
that will cause problems. It's the upload. 22Mbits/sec cable usually
has only 1Mbit/sec upload. Exactly one user, running a BitTorrent
type file sharing program, will totally saturate your upstream
bandwidth. Even if you have plenty of download bandwidth available,
things will stop because the ACK's will not be getting back from the
clients to the servers. Think about bandwidth management, monitoring,
and filtering out file sharing programs.

>Typically, we expect less than 3 to 4 customers connecting at the same
>time.

That's 3 or 4 in the coffee shop, and maybe another 3-4 outside in the
parking lot and neighboring houses. Think about hotspot security.

One of my customers is a small tea shop. 42 seats. At any given
time, there are at least 5 connections moving traffic and another 10
or connected, but not moving traffic. I just took a look at the ARP
table. 28 active connections in the 2 hrs (DHCP expiration time).

Here's traffic from another customer running a small bar, with about
65 seats.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/lulu-2009-02.jpg>
That's on a 1.5Mbit/sec DSL line, which appears to be saturated most
days. Note that this is after I blocked all known file sharing
protocols. Previously, the upstream bandwidth as running at about
half the downstream. Think about making sure you don't exceed the
cable company download limit.

Good luck.



--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Jul 15, 11:38*am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Dick Burkhart
>
> <dickburkh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >We're starting a small coffee shop with wi-fi for our customers.
>
> Permit me to offer my deepest sympathies and condolences.
>
> >The
> >cable company is offering a 22 Mbps line and the phone company is
> >offering a 7 Mbps line for $30 a month less. Which should we take?
>
> Cable. *Speed is everything. *However, it's not the download speed
> that will cause problems. *It's the upload. *22Mbits/sec cable usually
> has only 1Mbit/sec upload. *Exactly one user, running a BitTorrent
> type file sharing program, will totally saturate your upstream
> bandwidth. *Even if you have plenty of download bandwidth available,
> things will stop because the ACK's will not be getting back from the
> clients to the servers. *Think about bandwidth management, monitoring,
> and filtering out file sharing programs.
>
> >Typically, we expect less than 3 to 4 customers connecting at the same
> >time.
>
> That's 3 or 4 in the coffee shop, and maybe another 3-4 outside in the
> parking lot and neighboring houses. *Think about hotspot security.
>
> One of my customers is a small tea shop. *42 seats. *At any given
> time, there are at least 5 connections moving traffic and another 10
> or connected, but not moving traffic. *I just took a look at the ARP
> table. *28 active connections in the 2 hrs (DHCP expiration time).
>
> Here's traffic from another customer running a small bar, with about
> 65 seats.
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/lulu-2009-02.jpg>
> That's on a 1.5Mbit/sec DSL line, which appears to be saturated most
> days. *Note that this is after I blocked all known file sharing
> protocols. *Previously, the upstream bandwidth as running at about
> half the downstream. *Think about making sure you don't exceed the
> cable company download limit.
>
> Good luck.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann * * je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558

Doesn't the cable company traffic shape? It may be a decent 7mbps of
DSL is better than a traffic shaped cable. Plus from the people I know
with cable, it doesn't seem all that reliable. Lots of modem booting
required.

Or are you comparing business grade services?

I am amazed at the number of Asian women I see watching what looks
like Asian soap operas on their notebooks at Starbucks or Peets. I
assume they are streaming it, but I never bothered to ask. If you ever
messed with FTA, it looks like that kind of programming.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 14:39:02 -0700 (PDT), "(E-Mail Removed)"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Doesn't the cable company traffic shape?

Nope. The business router doesn't even give you access to the config
pages. Traffic shaping includes limits and quotas for individual
users. None of the ISP's do that. You have to do that yourself in
the router:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_shaping>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_management>

Comcast doesn't do prioritization for their own business VoIP traffic,
because they don't need to do it. They have a completely separate RF
channel for the business VoIP traffic, so none of the other data or
video traffic will interfere. I'm not sure if the home VoIP routers
work the same way, but I suspect they do as the audio is quite good.

>It may be a decent 7mbps of
>DSL is better than a traffic shaped cable.

Maybe, but it really depends on how it's setup and configured. There
are other oddities with cable that seem to cause problems. I have a
neighbor who went cheap and got Comcast 1Mbit/sec cable service and
two phone lines on an Arris modem. It's amazing to watch how the data
arrives. Instead of slowly dribbling in at 1Mbit/sec, as one would
get with 1.5Mbit/sec DSL, it comes in bursts. The peak rate is
probably 20Mbits/sec, but there are huge gaps between bursts. Click
on a web page, and nothing happens for about 3 seconds, then the whole
page paints at once. It's not horrible, but it does take some mental
adjustments.

The Comcast VoIP part is fine with no perceptible jitter or garble.
That's because it's on a separate RF channel and the regular cable
data doesn't interfere. However, when I tried to use Skype or my SIP
phone on the 1MBit/sec cable side, the MOS score was horrible, and
there were constant dropouts.

>Plus from the people I know
>with cable, it doesn't seem all that reliable. Lots of modem booting
>required.

Ahem. I have about 5 customers with Comcast business telephone
service and at least 5 more (too lazy to count) with home "Triple
Play" VoIP service. The business service comes with a UPS and never
seems to require a reboot or power cycle. The Arris modems used in
the home service can be made to hang by a power glitch, but are
generally more stable than my DD-WRT installations. The only surprise
was a phone call from one of the home users last weekend. No matter
what he did, he couldn't connect. I finally determined that Comcast
had swapped routers on him, and copied over a stale ARP table. All he
had to do was unplug the cable modem for about 15 minutes, let the ARP
table entry expire, and it worked.

I won't say anything nice about some of the local Comcast cable plant,
equipment, backup systems, and overloading. However, that's variable
and depends heavily on local policies and equipment. If you live in
the trees, like I do, things invariably fall on the cable.

<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/CATV-Pedestal.jpg>
Incidentally, that was fixed the day after I reported it.

>Or are you comparing business grade services?

Yep. A Coffee Shop is a business last time I checked. Comcast will
not install home service in a business address.

>I am amazed at the number of Asian women I see watching what looks
>like Asian soap operas on their notebooks at Starbucks or Peets. I
>assume they are streaming it, but I never bothered to ask. If you ever
>messed with FTA, it looks like that kind of programming.

I've done FTA (free to air) and SCPC (single channel per carrier)
audio satellite, as well as the usual DBS (digital broadcast
satellite) stuff. What bugs me about some coffee shop systems is that
I see high levels of traffic, but nobody seems to be doing anything
with the laptops. Sometimes some email or social network pages, but
not much else. Locally, lots of people filling out online forms and
applications. I've never seen anyone watching a movie. I should
check the traffic mix, but since nobody is complaining, I won't
bother.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Jul 15, 3:54*pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 14:39:02 -0700 (PDT), "m...@sushi.com"
>
> <m...@sushi.com> wrote:
> >Doesn't the cable company traffic shape?
>
> Nope. *The business router doesn't even give you access to the config
> pages. *Traffic shaping includes limits and quotas for individual
> users. *None of the ISP's do that. *You have to do that yourself in
> the router:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_shaping>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_management>
>
> Comcast doesn't do prioritization for their own business VoIP traffic,
> because they don't need to do it. *They have a completely separate RF
> channel for the business VoIP traffic, so none of the other data or
> video traffic will interfere. *I'm not sure if the home VoIP routers
> work the same way, but I suspect they do as the audio is quite good.
>
> >It may be a decent 7mbps of
> >DSL is better than a traffic shaped cable.
>
> Maybe, but it really depends on how it's setup and configured. *There
> are other oddities with cable that seem to cause problems. *I have a
> neighbor who went cheap and got Comcast 1Mbit/sec cable service and
> two phone lines on an Arris modem. *It's amazing to watch how the data
> arrives. *Instead of slowly dribbling in at 1Mbit/sec, as one would
> get with 1.5Mbit/sec DSL, it comes in bursts. *The peak rate is
> probably 20Mbits/sec, but there are huge gaps between bursts. *Click
> on a web page, and nothing happens for about 3 seconds, then the whole
> page paints at once. *It's not horrible, but it does take some mental
> adjustments.
>
> The Comcast VoIP part is fine with no perceptible jitter or garble.
> That's because it's on a separate RF channel and the regular cable
> data doesn't interfere. *However, when I tried to use Skype or my SIP
> phone on the 1MBit/sec cable side, the MOS score was horrible, and
> there were constant dropouts.
>
> >Plus from the people I know
> >with cable, it doesn't seem all that reliable. Lots of modem booting
> >required.
>
> Ahem. *I have about 5 customers with Comcast business telephone
> service and at least 5 more (too lazy to count) with home "Triple
> Play" VoIP service. *The business service comes with a UPS and never
> seems to require a reboot or power cycle. *The Arris modems used in
> the home service can be made to hang by a power glitch, but are
> generally more stable than my DD-WRT installations. *The only surprise
> was a phone call from one of the home users last weekend. *No matter
> what he did, he couldn't connect. *I finally determined that Comcast
> had swapped routers on him, and copied over a stale ARP table. *All he
> had to do was unplug the cable modem for about 15 minutes, let the ARP
> table entry expire, and it worked. *
>
> I won't say anything nice about some of the local Comcast cable plant,
> equipment, backup systems, and overloading. *However, that's variable
> and depends heavily on local policies and equipment. *If you live in
> the trees, like I do, things invariably fall on the cable.
>
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/CATV-Pedestal.jpg>
> Incidentally, that was fixed the day after I reported it.
>
> >Or are you comparing business grade services?
>
> Yep. *A Coffee Shop is a business last time I checked. *Comcast will
> not install home service in a business address. *
>
> >I am amazed at the number of Asian women I see watching what looks
> >like Asian soap operas on their notebooks at Starbucks or Peets. I
> >assume they are streaming it, but I never bothered to ask. If you ever
> >messed with FTA, it looks like that kind of programming.
>
> I've done FTA (free to air) and SCPC (single channel per carrier)
> audio satellite, as well as the usual DBS (digital broadcast
> satellite) stuff. *What bugs me about some coffee shop systems is that
> I see high levels of traffic, but nobody seems to be doing anything
> with the laptops. *Sometimes some email or social network pages, but
> not much else. *Locally, lots of people filling out online forms and
> applications. *I've never seen anyone watching a movie. *I should
> check the traffic mix, but since nobody is complaining, I won't
> bother.
>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831-336-2558
> #http://802.11junk.com* * * * * * * je...@cruzio.com
> #http://www.LearnByDestroying.com* * * * * * * AE6KS

I only know one person with business grade DSL, none with cable, so my
only experience is with Comcast consumer stuff. Good when it works,
but lots of luck if you have problems.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 00:30:47 -0700 (PDT), "(E-Mail Removed)"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I only know one person with business grade DSL, none with cable, so my
>only experience is with Comcast consumer stuff. Good when it works,
>but lots of luck if you have problems.

I've had cable Internet since 1997: 1997-2001 was on Time Warner
Roadrunner, and 2001-present is on Comcast. I had a Roadrunner problem
in about 1999. I called and they fixed it the same day. With Comcast,
I had a problem in 2005. I called and they fixed it the same day.

All in all, I can't complain. Problems are rare, fixes are fast, but
it probably depends on the area where you live, how old the cable
plant is, the technicians they assign, etc.