recommandations for a 2nd wifi "switch"

Hi all,

I need an advice (and some explanations) as to what piece
of wifi hardware I need to buy for a SOHO.

I first explain my current setup, then I explain what
I want to do.

Most computers are running Unixes (Linux and Solaris) and
there are also two Windows PCs (I don't think it matters).

All netmasks are 255.255.0.0.

The main office room has an ADSL router/switch (not wifi)
that has the local IP 192.168.2.1. Several PCs and
a network printer are using this switch/router to reach
both the LAN and internet using good old cables.

In that same office room, there's also an DLINK DI-624+
"wireless router" serving some PCs that have wifi cards.
The "ADSL router" part of that DLINK is however *not*
used: the DLINK has IP 192.168.0.1 and tells all wifi
clients connecting to him to use 192.168.2.1 as the
gateway. So that DLINK "wireless router" is only used
as a switch/dhcp server (telling wifi clients to use
192.168.2.1 as the real gateway) but *not* to do the
ADSL connection (there isn't any cable coming into
the "WAN" port of the DLINK and the "status" led is
always blinking, telling that the ADSL isn't in synch).

So far, so good. I've been running with this setup since
two years and everything is working fine.


At another stair, in another office room, there's a
laptop PC with a wifi card. Everything is working fine,
the wifi transmission speed/connection/etc. is excellent.

However I need to add PCs (without wifi) and
another network printer (without wifi) in that office
room. I need the network printer to be reachable
from everywhere and I need the new PCs in that room
to be able to access the LAN and the internet.

So I need a "thing" with an antenna and RJ45 ports (to
hook the non-wifi PCs and the network printer) that
can "talk" with the DLINK at 192.168.0.1 so traffic
can pass from this "thing" through the DLINK at
192.168.0.1 then through the non-wifi switch at
192.168.2.1 then on the big bad internet.

To resume:

New PCs (not wifi) + network printer (not wifi) (new office room at
1st floor)
|
|
"thing" (new office room at 1st floor)
|
|
DLINK DI 624+ at 192.168.0.1 (main office room at 2nd floor)
|
|
non-wifi adsl switch/router at 192.168.2.1 (main office room at 2nd
floor)
|
|
Internet

Problem is: I've got no idea as to how such a thing
is called nor how it needs to be configured.

(well, actually I know how to solve my problem using cables
but, in this case... cables are part of the problem: I want
a wifi connection between the two stairs).

What kind of wifi hardware should I buy to do this and how
should I configure it?

Would this thing have an IP?

Is there any configuration to change on the old DLINK DI 624+ ?

Is there any configuration to change on the non-wifi adsl
switch/router?
(I suppose not but I'm not sure)

Would you have any recommandations for something
reasonnably cheap that would do the job? (just like
my old adsl switch/router and that DLINK DI 624+
did the job since two years) ?

Note that as long as it works and isn't too expensive
I'm fine. I don't care, for example, if you recommend
some ADSL/switch/router whose ADSL functionnality
were not to be used (for that's exactly how I'm using
my DLINK DI-624+ since years).

Thanks in advance for any informations, I'm a bit
lost,

Driss

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>However I need to add PCs (without wifi) and
>another network printer (without wifi) in that office
>room. I need the network printer to be reachable
>from everywhere and I need the new PCs in that room
>to be able to access the LAN and the internet.

In general, what you want is called a "workgroup bridge". Cisco and
3com make these. They are usually limited to 4/8/16 wired connections
that will bridge to your access point. Basically, a wireless
extension for your switch.

3com
3CRWE83096A (obsolete)
3CRWE675075

Cisco
| http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...080088833.html

>What kind of wifi hardware should I buy to do this and how
>should I configure it?

Workgroup bridge.

>Would this thing have an IP?

Yes, but it would only be used to administer and managed the device.
Bridges are Layer 2 devices (MAC layer) and don't know anything about
IP addresess.

>Is there any configuration to change on the old DLINK DI 624+ ?

No. However, there is a potential compatibility issue. The ability
to simulate multiple connections from a single wireless link may be a
problem. If possible, try before you buy.

>Is there any configuration to change on the non-wifi adsl
>switch/router?

No.

I would not run your network that way you have it setup. You have
what is called "double NAT" where there are two routers, each of which
supplies NAT IP addresses to the LAN side. I suggest you consider
reconfiguring the DI-624 into an access point. That will allow all
your clients to run on one class C subnet (192.168.2.xxx). In
addition, you could change your netmask to 255.255.255.0. To setup
as an access point.
1. Change the DI-624 IP address to 192.168.2.something that does not
conflict with already used IP addresses.
2. Disable the DHCP server.
3. Do not plug anything into the WAN port.
4. Connect the CAT5 cable from the unspecified main router LAN port
to one of the LAN ports on the DI-624. You may need a cross over
ethernet cable.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>3com
> 3CRWE83096A (obsolete)
> 3CRWE675075
>
>Cisco
>| http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...080088833.html
>
>>What kind of wifi hardware should I buy to do this and how
>>should I configure it?
>
>Workgroup bridge.

Sorry. I forgot you wanted cheap. Linksys WET11 or WET54G will also
act as a "workgroup bridge", although they don't call it that.
However, be careful with devices claiming to be a "bridge". Many of
them will only bridge exactly one MAC addresses. That won't work with
more than one machine behind the wireless bridge. Unfortunately, the
manufactories do not disclose how many MAC addresses they will bridge.
Some "game adapters" might work, but again there's no indication of
how many MAC addresses they'll pass.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:
> ...
> I would not run your network that way you have it setup. You have
> what is called "double NAT" where there are two routers, each of which
> supplies NAT IP addresses to the LAN side. I suggest you consider
> reconfiguring the DI-624 into an access point. That will allow all
> your clients to run on one class C subnet (192.168.2.xxx). In
> addition, you could change your netmask to 255.255.255.0. To setup
> as an access point.
> 1. Change the DI-624 IP address to 192.168.2.something that does not
> conflict with already used IP addresses.
> 2. Disable the DHCP server.
> 3. Do not plug anything into the WAN port.
> 4. Connect the CAT5 cable from the unspecified main router LAN port
> to one of the LAN ports on the DI-624. You may need a cross over
> ethernet cable.

Hi,

thanks a lot for your explanations, I'll carefully read that
and do some more research (and ask more questions

I see what you mean about moving everything to a
class C subnet.

But you said I should connect the CAT5 cable from the
main router LAN port to one of the LAN port on the DI-624.

However, there's already such a connection established:
the non-wifi router has four RJ45 port (so does the DLink
DI-624) and there's an CAT5 cable going from one to the
other.

By checking the cables (one minute ago), I realized that
the setup was even a little bit more "complicated" than that.

I've got:

telephone line
|
|
Alcatel "Speedtouch" ADSL "modem" establishing the ADSL sync
|
|
Sweex router (piece of 25 Euros crap, but it does the job
| (so that Sweex router just does the "PPPoE" thinggy)
|
| from one of the four RJ45 port of the Sweex "router"
| to one of the four RJ45 port of the DI-624+
|
|
DI-DLink 624+


I probably could just throw the Alcatel Speedtouch and
the Sweex away and hook a plain-old switch to the Dlink
(I've got some spare parts lying around).

Thanks again, I'll go re-reading all you wrote a few times

Driss

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
> >3com
> > 3CRWE83096A (obsolete)
> > 3CRWE675075
> >
> >Cisco
> >| http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...080088833.html
> >
> >>What kind of wifi hardware should I buy to do this and how
> >>should I configure it?
> >
> >Workgroup bridge.
>
> Sorry. I forgot you wanted cheap. Linksys WET11 or WET54G will also
> act as a "workgroup bridge", although they don't call it that.
> However, be careful with devices claiming to be a "bridge". Many of
> them will only bridge exactly one MAC addresses. That won't work with
> more than one machine behind the wireless bridge. Unfortunately, the
> manufactories do not disclose how many MAC addresses they will bridge.
> Some "game adapters" might work, but again there's no indication of
> how many MAC addresses they'll pass.

Well, preferably cheap... If something cheap does the job I'd rather go
for it

I see my local computer parts dealer proposes the WET54G.

I didn't understand everything, so I've got more questions

A "real" workgroup bridge can bridge more than one MAC address?

Does the WET-54G act as real "workgroup bridge" (ie it will bridge
more than one MAC address)?

If I want to "bridge" two wifi switches, only one of them need to
be able to act as a workgroup bridge?

Thanks a lot for your informations once again,

Driss

replying to myself...

I did a temporary kludge using spare parts lying around
to workaround my problem: I realized I could add a wifi
card in one Linux PC in (and used ndiswrapper around
Windows drivers) the new office room (1st floor) in
addition to the regular ethernet card in that PC.

Then I put a switch in that 2nd office room, then configured
the Linux PC to do SNAT for the other PCs in that room
(so they can access the internet).

I still could do DNAT for the network printer (so the
PCs wanting to print from the 2nd floor on the first floor
printer can reach the printer, but it's not mandatory as
there's already an network printer on the 2nd floor).
No hack is needed for the PCs in the same room as
they're on the same switch as the printer.

Of course this means that the Linux PC has to be
turned on when someone's in the room (but it's
not a big problem).

I'll just use it that way until I get a "real" wifi
workgroup bridge set up.

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> Well, preferably cheap... If something cheap does the job I'd rather
> go for it
>
> I see my local computer parts dealer proposes the WET54G.
>
> I didn't understand everything, so I've got more questions
>
> A "real" workgroup bridge can bridge more than one MAC address?
>
> Does the WET-54G act as real "workgroup bridge" (ie it will bridge
> more than one MAC address)?
>
> If I want to "bridge" two wifi switches, only one of them need to
> be able to act as a workgroup bridge?
>
> Thanks a lot for your informations once again,
>
> Driss

Just something I found... At the Local Wal-Mart they have WRT54G's for
$43.95.. I picked up a few of them (turn off the DH server and wap part),
and then daisy chain output from one to the WAP input of the next.... Get
three outputs from each (minus one of the 4 for daiy chaining), and can
access stuff on the network both wired and wirelessly, and when I got a wild
hair up my <censored part of my anatomy>... I just turned on the wap part of
one, and gave it a unique ssid (could have been the same SSID and same
channel, but I wanted a public wireless (open for guests) and a private with
WPA wireless)....
Not sure why you couldn't just do the same thing (maybe you could), after
all The WRT is a Wap and Router in one box, and the price was certainly
right.

Course there is one important piece of info.... The directions say to NEVER
do that (output of one to the WAN input of the next)... This is one of those
times to ignore the directions (similar to jeffs learn by destroying.. I
learn by doing what I'm told not to.

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>Well, preferably cheap... If something cheap does the job I'd rather go
>for it

No problem. Cheap works well for non-critical applications.

>A "real" workgroup bridge can bridge more than one MAC address?

Yes.

>Does the WET-54G act as real "workgroup bridge" (ie it will bridge
>more than one MAC address)?

Yes.

>If I want to "bridge" two wifi switches, only one of them need to
>be able to act as a workgroup bridge?

No. A workgroup bridge is effectively a fancy client radio. It
really can't handle too many MAC addresses. Most of the bottom of the
line bridges will to no more then 32 MAC addresses. I'm fairly sure
the WET11 his 32 MAC's max. No clue on the WET54G.

For point to point bridging between two networks, you want a "wireless
bridge" or "transparent bridge", which by definition will pass more
than one MAC address. Basically, you need as many MAC addresses
passed as you have devices on both ends of the bridge.

See:
| http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/FAQ_for...ireless_Bridge
for my attempt at clearing up the bridge definition mess. No clue if
I got it totally correct.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>telephone line
> |
> |
>Alcatel "Speedtouch" ADSL "modem" establishing the ADSL sync
> |
> |
>Sweex router (piece of 25 Euros crap, but it does the job
> | (so that Sweex router just does the "PPPoE" thinggy)
> |
> | from one of the four RJ45 port of the Sweex "router"
> | to one of the four RJ45 port of the DI-624+
> |
> |
>DI-DLink 624+

Note that you have 2 routers in series for double NAT. My guess is
you have something like this:

Alcatel "Speedtouch" ADSL "modem" establishing the ADSL sync
|
| [routeable IP address]
|
WAN
Sweex ROUTER
192.168.2.1
|
|
WAN 192.168.2.2
DLink DI-624+ ROUTER
192.168.0.1
|
192.168.0.2-254

I can't figure out where you placed the switches.
What I'm suggesting is that you disarm the 2nd DI-624 and use it as an
access point. The result will be:

Alcatel "Speedtouch" ADSL "modem" establishing the ADSL sync
|
| [routeable IP address]
|
WAN
Sweex ROUTER
LAN 192.168.2.1
|
|
LAN 192.168.2.2
DLink DI-624+ As Access point
|
192.168.2.3-254


>I probably could just throw the Alcatel Speedtouch and
>the Sweex away and hook a plain-old switch to the Dlink
>(I've got some spare parts lying around).

Yep, that's another way to do it.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558