Real world VOIP and Vigor etc .. ?

Hi All,

I am considering getting a Vigor cable router, probably without G but
with V and wondered what the real world (rather than interesting
experiment) use of VOIP was like.

I already use such via Skype (or X-Talk in a game) but not quite sure
what the pro's and con's were re using a hardware version.

Like .. it's quite handy to be able to chat with Skype using a headset
(allowing you to continue doing other things etc) but it means having
the PC on etc.

Who can a DrayTek user actually talk to, outside of another DrayTek
(DrayTel) user I mean. I believe the Windows Messenger client can but
again how does that work in the real world please (I don't have anyone
with a Draytek router to try things with atm).

Can DrayTek stuff talk to other brands as longs as they both use 'SIP'
(is that how it works? I've had a Google about and read some tech info
but nothing that really takes you through the everyday use /
restrictions so to speak). Do I have to resister with anyone, does it
cost etc (I guess it would when going outside the VOIP network and
onto PSTN as with Skype etc).

All the best and thanks for your time in any case ..

T i m

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:12:45 GMT, T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

<snip>

You'd be better posting this in uk.telecom.voip if you want
recommendations for a VoIP supplier.

My personal experience of a Vigor 2600VG wasn't good but that was some
time ago. I don't believe consumer-level routers with
VoIP/QoS/Wireless/VLANs/VPNs etc etc are actually capable of doing the
job. Eg - the 2600VG was superb at terminating VPNs, rubbish at
wireless networking (AES buggered it) and any attempt to enable QoS
resulted in the opposite effect you might expect.

The real problem for me was that Seg handled _ALL_ UK support for
Draytek and basically they were (are?) a bunch of arrogant twats who
didn't (don't?) want to know about you if you didn't buy from them. If
Seg are out of the loop now then I'd consider looking again. If not
well there are lots of other manufacturers.....

I'd look at setting up an Asterisk box if I were you. I used an old
Shuttle SN45G box and it is remarkably simple. VoIP actually works -
well it does when the Be/Level3 link isn't pinging 3000+ ms :-(

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:22:13 +0100, Mr Adams <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:12:45 GMT, T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>You'd be better posting this in uk.telecom.voip if you want
>recommendations for a VoIP supplier.

Thanks for that, I'll pop over for a look ta but reading your reply
I'm not sure I''ll go that way now ....
>
>My personal experience of a Vigor 2600VG wasn't good but that was some
>time ago. I don't believe consumer-level routers with
>VoIP/QoS/Wireless/VLANs/VPNs etc etc are actually capable of doing the
>job. Eg - the 2600VG was superb at terminating VPNs, rubbish at
>wireless networking (AES buggered it) and any attempt to enable QoS
>resulted in the opposite effect you might expect.

Hmm. So if I just went for the basic DrayTek router, would you say it
has any advantages over any cheaper 'consumer' offerings. FWIW I'm
aware of 3 Netgear's amongst family and friends that have just
'failed' (but outside 12 months). A new Belkin supplied by TalkTalk
that wouldn't synch with the ADSL line (when my spare Linksys would)
and their replacement Belkin was DOA. I bought two Belkins that were
both iffy after a month but were at least swapped out quickly and the
replacements have been solid. I've also seen 3 Edimax's that died
(over a few months) but again were swapped FOC.

My first router when I went over to NTL BB was a D-Link DL-704 and
that was fine till I started getting a particular chipset LAN card (on
board and add ons) and it didn't handle DHCP properly with them.

The next, a Belkin F5D7230-4 has been very reliable but I recently
moved it upstairs as an AP and replaced it with an old Netgear plain
cable router and that seemed to stop issuing DHCP every so often (ok
after a power cycle).

I then stuck in a new Belkin F5D5231-4 but that seems to drop the link
every so often so that's going back to PCW (and was only 33 quid).

So I was looking at the DrayTek because they were supposed to be bomb
proof so if you reckon they are 'ok' as routers I might forget the
VOIP option and just use one as a plain router (I don't even need the
VPN ability atm if that wasn't supported on any particular router).
>
>The real problem for me was that Seg handled _ALL_ UK support for
>Draytek and basically they were (are?) a bunch of arrogant twats who
>didn't (don't?) want to know about you if you didn't buy from them. If
>Seg are out of the loop now then I'd consider looking again.

I don't think they are ... ;-( And that's a big shame if / when a bad
bunch of people (not saying they are etc) represent a product in a
particular country. Different people may present a different image?
Must be difficult though, handling calls from all types of customer,
some really incapable of dealing with the basics and more so if the
device is 'advanced'.


> If not
>well there are lots of other manufacturers.....

I know but why do DrayTek seem to get such a good rep?
>
>I'd look at setting up an Asterisk box if I were you. I used an old
>Shuttle SN45G box and it is remarkably simple. VoIP actually works -
>well it does when the Be/Level3 link isn't pinging 3000+ ms :-(

I was hoping to stay away from *more kit* if possible and was only
considering the hard VOIP solution thing as partly an experiment and
maybe give my daughter and her boyfriend a free way to chat (so keep
our telephone bills down).

All the best ..

T i m

I have had Draytek routers for 4 years, the 2600VG for last 2 and never had
any problems.
The WiFi is superior to other routers I tried, mine works between two
buildings 80m apart and through two set of double glazed leaded windows.
The advantage of SIP based VoIP is that you have normal phone(s) plugged in
to your router, you don't even have to have a computer at all, and your
granny can use it / them.
Routers with build in VoIP do have QoS which helps prioritises voice
packets, bit of a pain to set up on the Vigor but it works well. In theory
you don't have to register with any provider, you can call any SIP VoIP
device by their IP number. In practice it's easier to register with someone
like Sipgate, get a normal UK geo number and if you only use it for VoIP to
VoIP calls you don't need to pay a penny even if you friend is on the other
side of the world.
Regards,
Martin

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:30:25 +0100, "Martin²" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I have had Draytek routers for 4 years, the 2600VG for last 2 and never had
>any problems.

Ok.

>The WiFi is superior to other routers I tried, mine works between two
>buildings 80m apart and through two set of double glazed leaded windows.

I was considering getting the non WiFi one on the grounds that:

1) When the router sits isn't in the ideal location for the AP.
2) If the WiFi standards change / improve I can update the AP easily.
3) It's cheaper ;-)

If I was to go for DrayTel (have you had need to speak to SEG?) I'm
not sure if I should go for the 2100 or 2190 (as the 2910VG gives 2
VOIP ports, one for me, 1 for out daughter)?

>The advantage of SIP based VoIP is that you have normal phone(s) plugged in
>to your router, you don't even have to have a computer at all, and your
>granny can use it / them.

Understood.

>Routers with build in VoIP do have QoS which helps prioritises voice
>packets, bit of a pain to set up on the Vigor but it works well.

Ok ..

> In theory
>you don't have to register with any provider, you can call any SIP VoIP
>device by their IP number.

Ok, on that then, have you connected to a 'soft' client? I believe MSN
Messenger and CounterPaths X-Lite can accept / make SIP calls and I
would like to try either before I buy a new router (of any brand) to
see how well / easily it works in the real world. When I start X-Lite
it asks for a SIP account so I assume that info is what I would get
when I register with someone. Again on that, can I register with more
than one provider (like Sipgate and Draytel) and how does that work
please (I'm still a bit confused on this).

> In practice it's easier to register with someone
>like Sipgate, get a normal UK geo number and if you only use it for VoIP to
>VoIP calls you don't need to pay a penny even if you friend is on the other
>side of the world.

That sounds nice ;-)

All the best and thanks for your time Martin ..

T i m

(P.s. Maybe I will post the voip Q's on the voip ng)

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:12:52 GMT, T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>Hmm. So if I just went for the basic DrayTek router, would you say it
>has any advantages over any cheaper 'consumer' offerings.

It handles VPNs _exceptionally well_ If you don't want VPNs then there
is no advantage IMHO.

I see someone else in the thread had good fortune with a 2600VG's
wireless capabilities? Well that's not impossible given that the
2600VG had an internal slot for fitting PCMCIA (IIRC) wireless cards
and to my sure and certain knowledge there were at least two revisions
of hardware fitted in that slot. Mine overheated, couldn't handle AES
(TKIP was all it'd do) and had an absymal range.

>I know but why do DrayTek seem to get such a good rep?

Draytek are a good bunch of engineers, they really are. However when I
first heard people eulogising over Draytek Vigors there really was no
competition in the market segment they targeted. Not true now and
frankly if you don't want VPNs (or even if you do) there are better
alternatives.

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:39:42 +0100, Mr Adams <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:12:52 GMT, T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>Hmm. So if I just went for the basic DrayTek router, would you say it
>>has any advantages over any cheaper 'consumer' offerings.
>
>It handles VPNs _exceptionally well_ If you don't want VPNs then there
>is no advantage IMHO.

Ok ..
>
>I see someone else in the thread had good fortune with a 2600VG's
>wireless capabilities? Well that's not impossible given that the
>2600VG had an internal slot for fitting PCMCIA (IIRC) wireless cards
>and to my sure and certain knowledge there were at least two revisions
>of hardware fitted in that slot. Mine overheated, couldn't handle AES
>(TKIP was all it'd do) and had an absymal range.

I guess for every person who posts a negative there are 'n' people who
are happy with their lot who we never know about?
>
>>I know but why do DrayTek seem to get such a good rep?
>
>Draytek are a good bunch of engineers, they really are. However when I
>first heard people eulogising over Draytek Vigors there really was no
>competition in the market segment they targeted. Not true now and
>frankly if you don't want VPNs (or even if you do) there are better
>alternatives.

And a point just confirmed by an engineer mate who was stuck on the
motorway somewhere and rang for a chat. His Co *used* to fit DrayTek's
and now fit ZyXEL?

And I don't need VPN's at the moment ..

Hmmmmmm ... (what to do ..)

All the best ..

T i m

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:11:42 GMT, T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>And a point just confirmed by an engineer mate who was stuck on the
>motorway somewhere and rang for a chat. His Co *used* to fit DrayTek's
>and now fit ZyXEL?

I replaced the 2600VG with a Zyxel P2602HW. It was just better in
every way bar VPNs (the P2602HW will still terminate 20 IPSec tunnels
but its not as flexible).

Zyxel UK aren't the sharpest tools in the box either - Zyxel Denmark
do most EU code work.

Nothing is perfect unless you do it yourself :-)

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:59:39 +0100, Mr Adams <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:11:42 GMT, T i m <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>And a point just confirmed by an engineer mate who was stuck on the
>>motorway somewhere and rang for a chat. His Co *used* to fit DrayTek's
>>and now fit ZyXEL?
>
>I replaced the 2600VG with a Zyxel P2602HW.

Does that support cable (RJ45 / Ethernet) WAN as well did I read?

> It was just better in
>every way bar VPNs (the P2602HW will still terminate 20 IPSec tunnels
>but its not as flexible).

Ok ..
>
>Zyxel UK aren't the sharpest tools in the box either - Zyxel Denmark
>do most EU code work.

Re Support: If it works and is easy to configure that often doesn't
matter does it?
>
>Nothing is perfect unless you do it yourself :-)

Indeed . .. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

Tim:
>If the WiFi standards change / improve I can update the AP easily.

As your broadband speed is currently unlikely to exceed 8Mb/s, the G spec
54Mb/s is more then fast enough
(unless you want to stream video between your boxes) and it works well
enough in normal domestic environments.
In my experience the biggest drawback is interference from neighbours WiFi.
N spec WiFi may be bit better in reach and coverage, but that will only be
necessary in some situation.

Having said that I tried Zyxel 2602HWL, and it was very good except the WiFi
would NOT work between my two
buildings 80m apart and through two set of double glazed leaded windows.
The VoIP is bit basic, except you can make incoming calls to ring either
phone.
Yes, it has 4 Ethernet RJ45 ports, 2 VoIP, and the HWL version has landline
pass trough.
It does NOT come without WiFi !
I have passed it on in the family and is still working very well.

I have no experience of DrayTel, didn't like their charges.
If you have X-Lite, just sign up with Sipgate for FREE and you can start
make test calls to people on Sipgate and affiliated providers and 0800
numbers. Sipgate will give you personalized settings for X-Lite when you
sign up.
X-Lite lets you set up several VoIP providers, you just choose with a
dialling prefix or click of a mouse which one to use. You can get FREE US
number from Ipkall (?) so people can call you at US local / interstate cost.
Regards,
Martin