Problem seeing all machines in workgroup

On my network I have 1 workgroup containing mostly w2k pro machines with a
couple of NT servers, a couple of w2k servers and a couple of w2k3 servers.
The network contains a DNS server and WINS server. All machines have static
IP addresses.

If on any machine, I go to 'My Network Places' and access the Workgroup I
can only see those machines which have the same default gateway as the
machine I am on.
E.g. if I'm on a machine with IP address 10.1.10.20, subnet mask
255.255.255.255, default gateway 10.1.10.1 then I can only see machines
with IP addresses that start 10.1.10.
I see the same machines in 'Computers Near Me'.

All machines have the following network protocols installed: Client for
Microsoft Network, File and Printer Sharing for Microsoft Networks, TCP/IP.
The Computer Browser service is running on all machines. All machines have
the correct IP addresses for the DNS and WINS. I can ping and map drives to
all machines, regardless of whether I can see them in the Workgroup or not.

So the question comes in 2 parts...
1. Is it normal behaviour to only be able to see machines with the same
default gateway as you in the Workgroup? If not, what could cause this.

2. Sometimes when a machine is booted up and connects to the network, you
cannot access the workgroup. The message is 'Workgroup is not accessible.
Network path not found' but I can still ping and map drives to all
machines. What could the cause of this be?
When this happens I have left the machine for up to 3 hours before trying
again, with the same results. If I reboot and try again then normally I can
access the Workgroup straight away. This happens occasionally on most
machines and not just on the same troublesome machine.

This isn't really causing any problems because everyone can access
everything they need to on the network, its just frustrating not knowing
what it could be and if it is a symptom of something else.

the subnet can't be 255.255.255.255 in this case.
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"irrelevantelephant" <aste72dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:410fd428$0$13080$(E-Mail Removed) ...
> On my network I have 1 workgroup containing mostly w2k pro machines with a
> couple of NT servers, a couple of w2k servers and a couple of w2k3
> servers.
> The network contains a DNS server and WINS server. All machines have
> static
> IP addresses.
>
> If on any machine, I go to 'My Network Places' and access the Workgroup I
> can only see those machines which have the same default gateway as the
> machine I am on.
> E.g. if I'm on a machine with IP address 10.1.10.20, subnet mask
> 255.255.255.255, default gateway 10.1.10.1 then I can only see machines
> with IP addresses that start 10.1.10.
> I see the same machines in 'Computers Near Me'.
>
> All machines have the following network protocols installed: Client for
> Microsoft Network, File and Printer Sharing for Microsoft Networks,
> TCP/IP.
> The Computer Browser service is running on all machines. All machines have
> the correct IP addresses for the DNS and WINS. I can ping and map drives
> to
> all machines, regardless of whether I can see them in the Workgroup or
> not.
>
> So the question comes in 2 parts...
> 1. Is it normal behaviour to only be able to see machines with the same
> default gateway as you in the Workgroup? If not, what could cause this.
>
> 2. Sometimes when a machine is booted up and connects to the network, you
> cannot access the workgroup. The message is 'Workgroup is not accessible.
> Network path not found' but I can still ping and map drives to all
> machines. What could the cause of this be?
> When this happens I have left the machine for up to 3 hours before trying
> again, with the same results. If I reboot and try again then normally I
> can
> access the Workgroup straight away. This happens occasionally on most
> machines and not just on the same troublesome machine.
>
> This isn't really causing any problems because everyone can access
> everything they need to on the network, its just frustrating not knowing
> what it could be and if it is a symptom of something else.
>
>

yep, ok. typo mistake.without checking, it probably is 255.255.255.0

The browser service works by using LAN broadcasts. These broadcasts will
only be seen within the IP subnet. So the browse list will only show
machines which are in that subnet.

It is possible to browse across subnets, but only if you have a domain.
Only a Domain Master Browser has the ability to merge browse lists.

See KB 188001 "Description of the Microsoft Computer Browser Service".


"irrelevantelephant" <aste72dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:410fee44$0$272$(E-Mail Removed).. .
> yep, ok. typo mistake.without checking, it probably is 255.255.255.0
>
>

In news:(E-Mail Removed),
Bill Grant <not.available@online> made a post then I commented below
> The browser service works by using LAN broadcasts. These
> broadcasts will only be seen within the IP subnet. So the browse list
> will only show machines which are in that subnet.
>
> It is possible to browse across subnets, but only if you have a
> domain. Only a Domain Master Browser has the ability to merge browse
> lists.
>
> See KB 188001 "Description of the Microsoft Computer Browser
> Service".
>
>

Would just like to add if Network Neighborhood functionality is required
across subnets, WINS will facilitate NetBIOS name resolution across subnets,
since the Browser service (what the neighborhood is based on) is based on
NetBIOS functionality.


--
Regards,
Ace

Please direct all replies ONLY to the Microsoft public newsgroups
so all can benefit.

This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees
and confers no rights.

Ace Fekay, MCSE 2003 & 2000, MCSA 2003 & 2000, MCSE+I, MCT, MVP
Microsoft Windows MVP - Windows Server - Directory Services

Security Is Like An Onion, It Has Layers
HAM AND EGGS: A day's work for a chicken;
A lifetime commitment for a pig.
--
=================================

That's true, but you still won't get networkwide browsing if you only have
workgroups. You need WINS and a domain controller to get browse list
merging, so that you can see each domain/workgroup in NN from any client.

"Ace Fekay [MVP]"
<PleaseSubstituteMyActualFirstName&LastNameHere@ho tmail.com> wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> In news:(E-Mail Removed),
> Bill Grant <not.available@online> made a post then I commented below
> > The browser service works by using LAN broadcasts. These
> > broadcasts will only be seen within the IP subnet. So the browse list
> > will only show machines which are in that subnet.
> >
> > It is possible to browse across subnets, but only if you have a
> > domain. Only a Domain Master Browser has the ability to merge browse
> > lists.
> >
> > See KB 188001 "Description of the Microsoft Computer Browser
> > Service".
> >
> >
>
> Would just like to add if Network Neighborhood functionality is required
> across subnets, WINS will facilitate NetBIOS name resolution across
subnets,
> since the Browser service (what the neighborhood is based on) is based on
> NetBIOS functionality.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Ace
>
> Please direct all replies ONLY to the Microsoft public newsgroups
> so all can benefit.
>
> This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees
> and confers no rights.
>
> Ace Fekay, MCSE 2003 & 2000, MCSA 2003 & 2000, MCSE+I, MCT, MVP
> Microsoft Windows MVP - Windows Server - Directory Services
>
> Security Is Like An Onion, It Has Layers
> HAM AND EGGS: A day's work for a chicken;
> A lifetime commitment for a pig.
> --
> =================================
>
>

In news:(E-Mail Removed),
Bill Grant <not.available@online> made a post then I commented below
> That's true, but you still won't get networkwide browsing if you
> only have workgroups. You need WINS and a domain controller to get
> browse list merging, so that you can see each domain/workgroup in NN
> from any client.
>


The way the browser service works, the browse master (whatever machine it
is, PDC, PDC Emulator in AD or a workgroup machine) would use WINS (if using
it without a domain or with a domain) to assemble the browse list from all
workgroup/domains. Each machine would vie for the election process anyway
and the biggest machine with the most brass would win (whatever workgroup it
would belong to or the domain's PDC or PDC Emulator) and give you the list
of the different workgroups out there since it would listen to what's being
broadcast or grab what's in WINS. This was evident in the old LANMAN days
before many incorporated domains.

I have a couple clients (home users) with different workgroup names that
populate in their NN. Across subnets, one can use WINS without a domain if
they are running a copy of one of the server versions. It's just that one of
the server versions would win the election and that would offer the list to
any machine that requests it.

--
Regards,
Ace

Please direct all replies ONLY to the Microsoft public newsgroups
so all can benefit.

This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees
and confers no rights.

Ace Fekay, MCSE 2003 & 2000, MCSA 2003 & 2000, MCSE+I, MCT, MVP
Microsoft Windows MVP - Windows Server - Directory Services

Security Is Like An Onion, It Has Layers
HAM AND EGGS: A day's work for a chicken;
A lifetime commitment for a pig.
--
=================================

In news:(E-Mail Removed),
Bill Grant <not.available@online> made a post then I commented below
> That's true, but you still won't get networkwide browsing if you
> only have workgroups. You need WINS and a domain controller to get
> browse list merging, so that you can see each domain/workgroup in NN
> from any client.
>

Just to add, that article states, from what you're saying:
NOTE: In a Windows NT domain structure, the primary domain controller (PDC)
is always selected as the domain master browser. Only the PDC can be a
domain master browser. If a PDC is not present, a domain master browser is
not available and you are unable to obtain browse lists from workgroups
other than the workgroup you are located in.

And then it states about Domain browsing and assembling the domain wide
list:
Domain Master Browser Role:
Because the browser service is bound by broadcast segments and each master
browser maintains its own separate list, there must be a way to merge these
lists into a single domain-wide list. This functionality is provided by the
domain master browser that is the PDC for the domain. This functionality is
not required for network protocols other than Transmission Control
Protocol/Internet Protocol (TCP/IP).

But there's nothing stating workgroups functionality. That above mentions
how the PDC as a master browser assembles (merges) the domain list from
multiple segments (using WINS of course). In a domain or without a domain,
if you're using WINS (in H-Mode on the client), then broadcasts are
secondary since it uses NBNS first, so in a multi segmented environment
without a domain present, each WINS client will register with WINS. So in
this case, what would be stopping the master browser (whoever wins it) from
merging all the machines in a certain workgroup name and presents that to
the client when requesting the browse list, since WINS makes it transparent
across subnets?

--
Regards,
Ace

Please direct all replies ONLY to the Microsoft public newsgroups
so all can benefit.

This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees
and confers no rights.

Ace Fekay, MCSE 2003 & 2000, MCSA 2003 & 2000, MCSE+I, MCT, MVP
Microsoft Windows MVP - Windows Server - Directory Services

Security Is Like An Onion, It Has Layers
HAM AND EGGS: A day's work for a chicken;
A lifetime commitment for a pig.
--
=================================

In news:(E-Mail Removed),
Bill Grant <not.available@online> made a post then I commented below

And then again, since I never tried it, I may have jumped the gun on this
one!

Ace

Exactly what the DMB role is is explained in the section (not
surprisingly called "Domain Master Browser Role" ) in KB 188001 . Only the
PDC has the ability to get the browse lists from the segment master
browsers, merge them into a networkwide browse list, then return the
combined browse list to the segment master browsers.

Exactly what happens in a segmented network which is all in one
workgroup is a situation I haven't ever struck, but I suspect it will have
problems getting a combined browse list. Even with WINS, my guess is that
each segment will only see the local segment master browser.

Another problem with a workgroup only setup is the way the clients
interact with WINS. To get a browse list from WINS, the client usually sends
a name request for <domainname 1B> to WINS. If there is no domain set up,
this entry doesn't exist, so it resorts to broadcast on the local segment to
find a browse master. This is one reason why remote access clients cannot
browse a LAN which is only a workgroup, not a domain. The WINS lookup for
<domainname 1B> fails, and so does broadcasting! There doesn't seem to be
a way to make the client look for a <name 1D> entry in WINS.

So basically both the browser service itself and the way that the client
queries WINS assume that there is a domain set up.

Bill Grant
MVP - Networking

"Ace Fekay [MVP]"
<PleaseSubstituteMyActualFirstName&LastNameHere@ho tmail.com> wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> In news:(E-Mail Removed),
> Bill Grant <not.available@online> made a post then I commented below
>
> And then again, since I never tried it, I may have jumped the gun on this
> one!
>
> Ace
>
>