Powerline/Homeplug - between neighbouring properties?

I'm looking for a low-cost way of feeding our (community-owned) village
shop with a broadband feed from a generous neighbour who will allow the
shop to piggyback on their existing ADSL feed.

Leaving aside any issues about ISP rules on sharing, there is the issue
of how to get the feed across the road (the shop is on an "island" site
with roads on every side).

Wifi is not an attractive option - both properties are solid stone
buildings and we would have to get through two 800mm-1000mm gritstone
outer walls. Experience with other installations around here suggests
that even with enhanced antennae, wifi would be quite a challenge.

So, my thoughts turned to Powerline. A quick experiment with a couple of
the Solwise 14Mbps units (bought for a different application) confirmed
the implication from their website that they work well downstream from a
single electricity meter, but not between properties with different meters.

Is that true of all "consumer-grade" powerline units, or can anyone
suggest a unit that might work between premises?

John Geddes
Derbyshire

"John Geddes" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> I'm looking for a low-cost way of feeding our (community-owned) village
> shop with a broadband feed from a generous neighbour who will allow the
> shop to piggyback on their existing ADSL feed.
>
> Leaving aside any issues about ISP rules on sharing, there is the issue of
> how to get the feed across the road (the shop is on an "island" site with
> roads on every side).
>
> Wifi is not an attractive option - both properties are solid stone
> buildings and we would have to get through two 800mm-1000mm gritstone
> outer walls. Experience with other installations around here suggests that
> even with enhanced antennae, wifi would be quite a challenge.
>
> So, my thoughts turned to Powerline. A quick experiment with a couple of
> the Solwise 14Mbps units (bought for a different application) confirmed
> the implication from their website that they work well downstream from a
> single electricity meter, but not between properties with different
> meters.
>
> Is that true of all "consumer-grade" powerline units, or can anyone
> suggest a unit that might work between premises?
>
> John Geddes
> Derbyshire

Powerlines won't work if the buildings are on different phase/substation.
You say that you have used "enhanced" antennas for the wifi kit, but what
have you actually used? hi-gain omni-directional antennas aren't up to the
job. You will need to use the correct dishes for the equipment.

John Geddes wrote:
> I'm looking for a low-cost way of feeding our (community-owned)
> village shop with a broadband feed from a generous neighbour who will
> allow the shop to piggyback on their existing ADSL feed.
>
> Leaving aside any issues about ISP rules on sharing, there is the
> issue of how to get the feed across the road (the shop is on an "island"
> site with roads on every side).
>
> Wifi is not an attractive option - both properties are solid stone
> buildings and we would have to get through two 800mm-1000mm gritstone
> outer walls. Experience with other installations around here suggests
> that even with enhanced antennae, wifi would be quite a challenge.

Are there windows?
You can put a couple of USB WiFi sticks on the window cills and it should
work.
You can go 5+m with a USB cable so you can feed it through the frame and
mount the USB outside (inside a piece of overflow pipe to keep it dry).

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:38:10 +0100, John Geddes
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>So, my thoughts turned to Powerline. A quick experiment with a couple of
>the Solwise 14Mbps units (bought for a different application) confirmed
>the implication from their website that they work well downstream from a
>single electricity meter, but not between properties with different meters.
>
>Is that true of all "consumer-grade" powerline units, or can anyone
>suggest a unit that might work between premises?

It depends on two things :

1) Are the properties adjacent? If so then they are on different
phases and it simply won't work - in rural areas you MIGHT be on the
same phase;
2) What sort of meter/consumer unit/fusebox is fitted. Eg I find that
going between ring mains on our consumer unit drops the speed by 90%
or so but I know other people with ancient fuseboxes where this isn't
the case - RCDs and so on no doubt.
--
John Naismith

"dennis@home" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:uiOWg.32663$(E-Mail Removed). uk...
> John Geddes wrote:
>> I'm looking for a low-cost way of feeding our (community-owned)
>> village shop with a broadband feed from a generous neighbour who will
>> allow the shop to piggyback on their existing ADSL feed.
>>
>> Leaving aside any issues about ISP rules on sharing, there is the
>> issue of how to get the feed across the road (the shop is on an "island"
>> site with roads on every side).
>>
>> Wifi is not an attractive option - both properties are solid stone
>> buildings and we would have to get through two 800mm-1000mm gritstone
>> outer walls. Experience with other installations around here suggests
>> that even with enhanced antennae, wifi would be quite a challenge.
>
> Are there windows?
> You can put a couple of USB WiFi sticks on the window cills and it should
> work.
> You can go 5+m with a USB cable so you can feed it through the frame and
> mount the USB outside (inside a piece of overflow pipe to keep it dry).

Buffalo and DLink both offer wireless acces points that allow connection of
external antennae. With the appropriate antennae and line of sight you can
sever hundred metres. Need to drill holes in the wall for the antenna
cables - and don't forget you will need lightning arrestors.

--
Graham

Graham wrote:
> "dennis@home" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:uiOWg.32663$(E-Mail Removed). uk...
>> John Geddes wrote:
>>> I'm looking for a low-cost way of feeding our (community-owned)
>>> village shop with a broadband feed from a generous neighbour who
>>> will allow the shop to piggyback on their existing ADSL feed.
>>>
>>> Leaving aside any issues about ISP rules on sharing, there is the
>>> issue of how to get the feed across the road (the shop is on an
>>> "island" site with roads on every side).
>>>
>>> Wifi is not an attractive option - both properties are solid stone
>>> buildings and we would have to get through two 800mm-1000mm
>>> gritstone outer walls. Experience with other installations around
>>> here suggests that even with enhanced antennae, wifi would be quite
>>> a challenge.
>>
>> Are there windows?
>> You can put a couple of USB WiFi sticks on the window cills and it
>> should work.
>> You can go 5+m with a USB cable so you can feed it through the frame
>> and mount the USB outside (inside a piece of overflow pipe to keep
>> it dry).
>
> Buffalo and DLink both offer wireless acces points that allow
> connection of external antennae. With the appropriate antennae and
> line of sight you can sever hundred metres. Need to drill holes in
> the wall for the antenna cables - and don't forget you will need
> lightning arrestors.

Yes I do know that.
I doubt if they are needed though.
As for lightning arrestors I doubt if they are needed for a short cable
stuck through a window frame.
The building is a much better target anyway.

On 10-Oct-2006, John Geddes <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> So, my thoughts turned to Powerline. A quick experiment with a couple of
> the Solwise 14Mbps units (bought for a different application) confirmed
> the implication from their website that they work well downstream from a
> single electricity meter, but not between properties with different meters.
>
> Is that true of all "consumer-grade" powerline units, or can anyone
> suggest a unit that might work between premises?

Electricity meters contain coils to produce the magnetic field, that turns the
rotor, that drives the readout. These act as chokes at high frequencies.
An added problem is that long, between premises cable, has capacitance
plus a bit of inductance and resistance which increase the losses at high
frequencies. Added to which the premises may not be on the same
phase, and each may go back to the substation, increasing the
cable length. Cables don't zig zag across roads, or follow the
shortest, most obvious route. So powerline may be out, but suck it and
see.
I've had success with wireless, for several hundred feet, between
USB wireless adapters, between windows in line of sight of each
other, using large thin walled plastic flowerpots at each end, half
coated on the outside with aluminium kitchen foil, held in place
with elastic bands.
The foil reflector increases the signal, and the gap in the foil
reduces the angle of acceptance to multi-path reflections.
Signal strength goes up by around 12 percent, and signal
quality by about 20 percent compared with freespace and no
reflectors.
Of course once you have a link it only requires a bit of ingenuity
to get it to where you want the service.

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:53:08 UTC, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:

> I've had success with wireless, for several hundred feet, between
> USB wireless adapters, between windows in line of sight of each
> other, using large thin walled plastic flowerpots at each end, half
> coated on the outside with aluminium kitchen foil, held in place
> with elastic bands.

And we mustn't forget the well known Pringles can...
--
[ 7'ism - a condition by which the sufferer experiences an inability
to give concise answers, express reasoned argument or opinion.
Usually accompanied by silly noises and gestures - incurable, early
euthanasia recommended. ]

In article <eggmio$kvm$1$(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed) (Graham) wrote:

> With the appropriate antennae and line of sight you can
> sever hundred metres.

Did you misspell miles? Current 802.11 link record is over 150 miles...

--
Paul Cummins

**FREE** mobile phones, with FREE line rental
http://www.gstgroup.co.uk/

> cables - and don't forget you will need lightning arrestors.

Are you serious ?. I have put up lots of antenna installations and never
needed lightning arrestors. Unless they are done correctly the samll ones
are a waste of time. Thounsands of volts and hundreds of amps will pretty
much decide where they will go and it takes a lot to stop them.

Dave