Phorm wityh the big three

On TV last night the subject of Phorm came up and it was said the Big 3 ISPs
were into it, but their customers would be able to opt out.
If these 3 start doing the reporting of customers internet use to Phorm how
will such as I go on using Tesco who use Virgin one of these 3?
I guess many of us using a non big 3 ISP might pass on into the Big 3.

--
Regards,
David

Please reply to News Group

David wrote:
> On TV last night the subject of Phorm came up and it was said the Big 3
> ISPs were into it, but their customers would be able to opt out.
> If these 3 start doing the reporting of customers internet use to Phorm
> how will such as I go on using Tesco who use Virgin one of these 3?
> I guess many of us using a non big 3 ISP might pass on into the Big 3.
>

First off - spend an hour or two on this site. This will explain all.
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/welcome.htm

Then - just hope the whole thing collapses - it's very much in the
balance. Looks illegal, and unlikley to ever work properly (too complex
& full of security risks).

If - heaven forbid - it does kick off, then move to another ISP. The
choice seems to be -
Cheap ISP - Phorm snooping and a flood of "Targeted" adverts, plus low
grade service.
OR
Higher price ISP (say >£25/month) for an ISP with no snooping and decent
service. (Zen Internet, for example)

You get what you pay for, I'm afraid.

John

John Livingston wrote:
> David wrote:
>> On TV last night the subject of Phorm came up and it was said the
>> Big 3 ISPs were into it, but their customers would be able to opt
>> out. If these 3 start doing the reporting of customers internet use to
>> Phorm how will such as I go on using Tesco who use Virgin one of
>> these 3? I guess many of us using a non big 3 ISP might pass on into the
>> Big
>> 3.
>
> First off - spend an hour or two on this site. This will explain all.
> http://www.inphormationdesk.org/welcome.htm
>
> Then - just hope the whole thing collapses - it's very much in the
> balance. Looks illegal, and unlikley to ever work properly (too
> complex & full of security risks).
>
> If - heaven forbid - it does kick off, then move to another ISP. The
> choice seems to be -
> Cheap ISP - Phorm snooping and a flood of "Targeted" adverts, plus low
> grade service.
> OR
> Higher price ISP (say >£25/month) for an ISP with no snooping and
> decent service. (Zen Internet, for example)
>
> You get what you pay for, I'm afraid.
>
> John

BT are the biggest instigator of Phorm and have already ran trials of the
system (and are planning more) - so your theory doesn't bear water I'm
afraid.

"Tanner-'op" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> John Livingston wrote:
>> David wrote:
>>> On TV last night the subject of Phorm came up and it was said the
>>> Big 3 ISPs were into it, but their customers would be able to opt
>>> out. If these 3 start doing the reporting of customers internet use to
>>> Phorm how will such as I go on using Tesco who use Virgin one of
>>> these 3? I guess many of us using a non big 3 ISP might pass on into the
>>> Big
>>> 3.
>>
>> First off - spend an hour or two on this site. This will explain all.
>> http://www.inphormationdesk.org/welcome.htm
>>
>> Then - just hope the whole thing collapses - it's very much in the
>> balance. Looks illegal, and unlikley to ever work properly (too
>> complex & full of security risks).
>>
>> If - heaven forbid - it does kick off, then move to another ISP. The
>> choice seems to be -
>> Cheap ISP - Phorm snooping and a flood of "Targeted" adverts, plus low
>> grade service.
>> OR
>> Higher price ISP (say >£25/month) for an ISP with no snooping and
>> decent service. (Zen Internet, for example)
>>
>> You get what you pay for, I'm afraid.
>>
>> John
>
> BT are the biggest instigator of Phorm and have already ran trials of the
> system (and are planning more) - so your theory doesn't bear water I'm
> afraid.
>
Yes John and Tanner but my ISP uses Virgin as a sun contractor my question
is the smaller ISPs who pass through these big 3 are we at risk of Phorm due
to going through the big 3?
So changing might not help, I do not feel I can trust anyone.

--
Regards,
David

Please reply to News Group

David wrote:
>
>
> "Tanner-'op" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> John Livingston wrote:
>>> David wrote:
>>>> On TV last night the subject of Phorm came up and it was said the
>>>> Big 3 ISPs were into it, but their customers would be able to opt
>>>> out. If these 3 start doing the reporting of customers internet use to
>>>> Phorm how will such as I go on using Tesco who use Virgin one of
>>>> these 3? I guess many of us using a non big 3 ISP might pass on into
>>>> the Big
>>>> 3.
<SNIP
>>
> Yes John and Tanner but my ISP uses Virgin as a sun contractor my
> question is the smaller ISPs who pass through these big 3 are we at risk
> of Phorm due to going through the big 3?
> So changing might not help, I do not feel I can trust anyone.
>

Virgin are being quite coy over their intentions. I guess they will go
ahead if BT do (but as I said - let's wait and see). I would be very
surprised if sub contract ISPs do not follow suit.

It's your choice - but if BT goes ahead, _I'm_ off, even if it means
paying a premium for my privacy.

The cold economic fact is that the large ISPs have driven their prices
down to far below cost, and they have to make a profit somehow. The true
price of an ISP connection, to allow for a sensible margin and quality
of service would be about £25-30.

John

"John Livingston" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>
> Virgin are being quite coy over their intentions. I guess they will go
> ahead if BT do (but as I said - let's wait and see). I would be very
> surprised if sub contract ISPs do not follow suit.
>
> It's your choice - but if BT goes ahead, _I'm_ off, even if it means
> paying a premium for my privacy.
>
> The cold economic fact is that the large ISPs have driven their prices
> down to far below cost, and they have to make a profit somehow. The true
> price of an ISP connection, to allow for a sensible margin and quality of
> service would be about £25-30.
>

So I might well end up getting the Phorm by default, that was my worry.
But if you move from BT how can you be sure that at some stage your new ISP
is not in same boat as me with Tesco?
Also most of us use BT lines to get to the ISP, yet another way for BT to
get info. from you and me.
By the way Tesco not cheap and almost in your price band.
£20 unlimited and 1mb, I get 0.96mb.
Would be £25 for 2mb which is their fastest. ( which I would go for but not
wanting to get another 12month contract.)
They do not do these new high speeds with fair usage.

--
Regards,
David

Please reply to News Group

David wrote:
>
>
> "John Livingston" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>
>> Virgin are being quite coy over their intentions. I guess they will go
>> ahead if BT do (but as I said - let's wait and see). I would be very
>> surprised if sub contract ISPs do not follow suit.
>>
>> It's your choice - but if BT goes ahead, _I'm_ off, even if it means
>> paying a premium for my privacy.
>>
>> The cold economic fact is that the large ISPs have driven their prices
>> down to far below cost, and they have to make a profit somehow. The
>> true price of an ISP connection, to allow for a sensible margin and
>> quality of service would be about £25-30.
>>
>
> So I might well end up getting the Phorm by default, that was my worry.
> But if you move from BT how can you be sure that at some stage your new
> ISP is not in same boat as me with Tesco?
> Also most of us use BT lines to get to the ISP, yet another way for BT
> to get info. from you and me.
> By the way Tesco not cheap and almost in your price band.
> £20 unlimited and 1mb, I get 0.96mb.
> Would be £25 for 2mb which is their fastest. ( which I would go for but
> not wanting to get another 12month contract.)
> They do not do these new high speeds with fair usage.
>


The BT lines you mention are from BT Wholesale, Phorm is being touted by
BT Retail. They are two VERY different animals, and are kept so by the
regulator. The whispers I hear in the industry are that BT Wholesale may
be as angry as the rest of us over the whole BT Retail/Phorm issue.

In terms of being sure - nothing's sure in this life IMHO. Best to work
with probabilities.

If Tesco are charging that much for 1Mb fixed rate service, I wouldn't
think they'd have the nerve to implement Phorm, but as I say, nothing's
sure.

If you want an unmonitored service, go for business rather than
consumer. Business costs more because the service quality is higher. No
business is going to tolerate covert monitoring of their business
traffic (Industrial espionage, anyone ?).

John

"John Livingston" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> David wrote:
>>
>>
>> "John Livingston" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Virgin are being quite coy over their intentions. I guess they will go
>>> ahead if BT do (but as I said - let's wait and see). I would be very
>>> surprised if sub contract ISPs do not follow suit.
>>>
>>> It's your choice - but if BT goes ahead, _I'm_ off, even if it means
>>> paying a premium for my privacy.
>>>
>>> The cold economic fact is that the large ISPs have driven their prices
>>> down to far below cost, and they have to make a profit somehow. The true
>>> price of an ISP connection, to allow for a sensible margin and quality
>>> of service would be about £25-30.
>>>
>>
>> So I might well end up getting the Phorm by default, that was my worry.
>> But if you move from BT how can you be sure that at some stage your new
>> ISP is not in same boat as me with Tesco?
>> Also most of us use BT lines to get to the ISP, yet another way for BT to
>> get info. from you and me.
>> By the way Tesco not cheap and almost in your price band.
>> £20 unlimited and 1mb, I get 0.96mb.
>> Would be £25 for 2mb which is their fastest. ( which I would go for but
>> not wanting to get another 12month contract.)
>> They do not do these new high speeds with fair usage.
>>
>
>
> The BT lines you mention are from BT Wholesale, Phorm is being touted by
> BT Retail. They are two VERY different animals, and are kept so by the
> regulator. The whispers I hear in the industry are that BT Wholesale may
> be as angry as the rest of us over the whole BT Retail/Phorm issue.
>
> In terms of being sure - nothing's sure in this life IMHO. Best to work
> with probabilities.
>
> If Tesco are charging that much for 1Mb fixed rate service, I wouldn't
> think they'd have the nerve to implement Phorm, but as I say, nothing's
> sure.
>
> If you want an unmonitored service, go for business rather than consumer.
> Business costs more because the service quality is higher. No business is
> going to tolerate covert monitoring of their business traffic (Industrial
> espionage, anyone ?).
>
> John

Best thing is to ask your target ISP directly, before you sign up.
I asked my ISP - Plusnet (who are now owned by BT Retail) because I would
move away from them if they adopted Phorm/Webwise.
They replied to say that they had no plans to adopt Phorm and if they did,
they would tell everyone.
That's good enough for me, so I'm staying put.

George

David wrote:

> Yes John and Tanner but my ISP uses Virgin as a sun contractor my question
> is the smaller ISPs who pass through these big 3 are we at risk of Phorm due
> to going through the big 3?
> So changing might not help, I do not feel I can trust anyone.

Idnet. Virtually unbeatable.

Graham

John Livingston wrote:
> David wrote:
>>
>>
>> "John Livingston" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Virgin are being quite coy over their intentions. I guess they will
>>> go ahead if BT do (but as I said - let's wait and see). I would be
>>> very surprised if sub contract ISPs do not follow suit.
>>>
>>> It's your choice - but if BT goes ahead, _I'm_ off, even if it means
>>> paying a premium for my privacy.
>>>
>>> The cold economic fact is that the large ISPs have driven their
>>> prices down to far below cost, and they have to make a profit
>>> somehow. The true price of an ISP connection, to allow for a sensible
>>> margin and quality of service would be about £25-30.
>>>
>>
>> So I might well end up getting the Phorm by default, that was my worry.
>> But if you move from BT how can you be sure that at some stage your
>> new ISP is not in same boat as me with Tesco?
>> Also most of us use BT lines to get to the ISP, yet another way for BT
>> to get info. from you and me.
>> By the way Tesco not cheap and almost in your price band.
>> £20 unlimited and 1mb, I get 0.96mb.
>> Would be £25 for 2mb which is their fastest. ( which I would go for
>> but not wanting to get another 12month contract.)
>> They do not do these new high speeds with fair usage.
>>
>
>
> The BT lines you mention are from BT Wholesale, Phorm is being touted by
> BT Retail. They are two VERY different animals, and are kept so by the
> regulator. The whispers I hear in the industry are that BT Wholesale may
> be as angry as the rest of us over the whole BT Retail/Phorm issue.
>
> In terms of being sure - nothing's sure in this life IMHO. Best to work
> with probabilities.
>
> If Tesco are charging that much for 1Mb fixed rate service, I wouldn't
> think they'd have the nerve to implement Phorm, but as I say, nothing's
> sure.
>
> If you want an unmonitored service, go for business rather than
> consumer. Business costs more because the service quality is higher. No
> business is going to tolerate covert monitoring of their business
> traffic (Industrial espionage, anyone ?).
>
> John
>
Its the same old story. You want cheap (TV,web sites) you get adverts.

You pay for exclusivity, you get exclusivity.

Go with a small business only ISP, and pay enough to keep them in business.

It would take some pretty expensive and obvious kit to start monitoring
THEIR backhaul for info and would be utterly outside BT wholesale's
T&C's and probably against OFTEL regs..


If you are on cable, tough.