Newbie tries and fails

I have tried and failed to establish a working 802.11g network across three
desktop PC's and games consoles in a large modern house (UK).

First problem was that the telephone extensions created too much capacitance
on the telephone line for ADSL sync, so I found I have to connect all the
house phone points through a microfilter. Fine for using the phone but this
means the WAP has to be plugged into the house's main phone point (so as to
be on the unfiltered line) but this doesn't allow me to position the access
point freely within the house.

I then find that the range of the access point (Linksys WAG54g) is tiny -
can't get a reliable signal more than about twenty feet away through walls
etc. Tried disabling cordless phones and TV resenders (normally two of each
in the house so plenty of interference around!) and switching channels to no
noticeable effect.

With the help of Linksys technical support I upgraded firmware on the access
point to support WDS and purchased a Linksys WRE54G range extender. Had huge
problems getting it to connect at any reasonable range - it seemed to want
to be in the same room as the access pint before it would work reliably -
but managed to position it so we could get a connection most of the time on
most of the PC's.

Than had an insurance claim and the insurance co replaced the WAG54G - but
with a v2 model. Linksys now tell me there is no firmware upgrade for v2 to
support WDS. Aaargh!

I suspect I need to start again. But what do I do? I can't rewire the house
telephone extensions or run cables around the house. Can I get a more
powerful transmitter, or would an improved aerial help (not sure if the
WAG54g aerial is removable).

Suggestions please!

Chris R

> house phone points through a microfilter. Fine for using the phone but this
> means the WAP has to be plugged into the house's main phone point (so as to
> be on the unfiltered line) but this doesn't allow me to position the access
> point freely within the house.

If it's an access point, you can locate it anywhere in the house via
ethernet. If you have a router then why not plug it into one of the
extensions elsewhere in the house via the microfilter? This is the
classic problem of the combined device, better to use a modem and a
seperate access point to be honest so that you can put the AP exactly
where you want it.

> I then find that the range of the access point (Linksys WAG54g) is tiny -
> can't get a reliable signal more than about twenty feet away through walls
> etc. Tried disabling cordless phones and TV resenders (normally two of each

> With the help of Linksys technical support I upgraded firmware on the access
> point to support WDS and purchased a Linksys WRE54G range extender. Had huge
> problems getting it to connect at any reasonable range - it seemed to want
> to be in the same room as the access pint before it would work reliably -

You'd do better wiring a second AP into the router.

> I suspect I need to start again. But what do I do? I can't rewire the house
> telephone extensions or run cables around the house. Can I get a more
> powerful transmitter, or would an improved aerial help (not sure if the
> WAG54g aerial is removable).

You don't need to, see above, try the router in a different phone
port/microfilter or wire an additional AP. Job done.

David.

"David Taylor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) d.com...
>> house phone points through a microfilter. Fine for using the phone but
>> this
>> means the WAP has to be plugged into the house's main phone point (so as
>> to
>> be on the unfiltered line) but this doesn't allow me to position the
>> access
>> point freely within the house.
>
> If it's an access point, you can locate it anywhere in the house via
> ethernet. If you have a router then why not plug it into one of the
> extensions elsewhere in the house via the microfilter? This is the
> classic problem of the combined device, better to use a modem and a
> seperate access point to be honest so that you can put the AP exactly
> where you want it.

Thanks David. But that means running an ethernet cable from the modem or
main telephone point to an access point elsewhere in the house. If I could
easily run ethernet cables around, I wouldn't need a wireless network?

not sure what you meant by "If you have a router then why not plug it into
one of the
extensions elsewhere in the house via the microfilter?". If the extension
sockets and wiring are filtered, they can't be used for ADSL; but if I don't
filter them, ADSL doesn't work. Perhaps I didn't make it clear: the
extensions are all filtered by a filter at the point where the extension
wiring connects to the main telephone socket.
>
>> I then find that the range of the access point (Linksys WAG54g) is tiny -
>> can't get a reliable signal more than about twenty feet away through
>> walls
>> etc. Tried disabling cordless phones and TV resenders (normally two of
>> each
>
>> With the help of Linksys technical support I upgraded firmware on the
>> access
>> point to support WDS and purchased a Linksys WRE54G range extender. Had
>> huge
>> problems getting it to connect at any reasonable range - it seemed to
>> want
>> to be in the same room as the access pint before it would work reliably -
>
> You'd do better wiring a second AP into the router.

Again, needing a cable run? or are you suggesting that a second AP in the
same room would help?
>
>> I suspect I need to start again. But what do I do? I can't rewire the
>> house
>> telephone extensions or run cables around the house. Can I get a more
>> powerful transmitter, or would an improved aerial help (not sure if the
>> WAG54g aerial is removable).
>
> You don't need to, see above, try the router in a different phone
> port/microfilter or wire an additional AP. Job done.
>
> David.

Many thanks for your help, David.

Chris R

> main telephone point to an access point elsewhere in the house. If I could
> easily run ethernet cables around, I wouldn't need a wireless network?

Not necessarily. It's easy to run an ethernet cable between floors, say
going outside the building and then into the loft for example. To place
a CAT5 outlet into each room is somewhat harder, all you have to do is
find somewhere to hide the cable for ethernet. If you think that's a
problem, I had a much harder task when I installed our central vacuum
system which required running 2 inch pipework!

> not sure what you meant by "If you have a router then why not plug it into
> one of the
> extensions elsewhere in the house via the microfilter?". If the extension
> sockets and wiring are filtered, they can't be used for ADSL; but if I don't
> filter them, ADSL doesn't work. Perhaps I didn't make it clear: the
> extensions are all filtered by a filter at the point where the extension
> wiring connects to the main telephone socket.

Then change the way you filter. Originally, BT installed ADSL by
providing a new faceplate to the master socket and thus all extensions
were then filtered by this one change. BT filtering off the ADSL from
the voice at the master. When they switched to self install, it
required the customer to install microfilters at each extension to keep
the adsl off the voice signal. From a legal point of view you're not
permitted to provide a replacement faceplate for the master socket other
than those that plug into a socket behind the later faceplates.

Essentially what i'm saying is that if you leave all the phone lines
plugged straight into the master and then put the microfilters at the
telephone end of the extension, that will work fine. I've done that
before at my parents house, an old sturdily built house with real brick
walls.

> Again, needing a cable run? or are you suggesting that a second AP in the
> same room would help?

No somewhere else but try what I've posted above first.

Unfortunately, wireless is a marketing issue. The box says "Range 450
feet" or whatever. Yes in open space that's fine, houses suck
basically. You can also make it go a few kilometers within ETSI power
regulation too if you change antennas but that's not necessarily going
to be best for you here. As I said, this is one of the weak points of
having a combined modem/access point. You really want the AP central
but nobody seems to place telephone extensions in the airing cupboard
either hence the router somewhere and a single ethernet to the airing
cupboard is handy. It's not that hard to do either if you think about
it. Drill through the outside wall by a phone point, run the cable up
the wall, into the loft space and down from the header tank following
the water pipe run to the hot water cylinder.

The other way you *could* do it although more expensively, is to use the
ethernet powerline extenders where you plug a dongle into a mains socket
at each end and they have ethernet ports on them and use that to locate
an AP more favourably.

David.

In article <435b52d9$0$15040$(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed)...mmy .com.address says...

Right, must be too early in the morning because I can't work out your
email address from that. cironbinson.com doesn't seem to exist and
that's all I can figure out!

Ping me an email, I want to send you a piccy of something

David.

"David Taylor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) d.com...
>> main telephone point to an access point elsewhere in the house. If I
>> could
>> easily run ethernet cables around, I wouldn't need a wireless network?
>
> Not necessarily. It's easy to run an ethernet cable between floors, say
> going outside the building and then into the loft for example. To place
> a CAT5 outlet into each room is somewhat harder, all you have to do is
> find somewhere to hide the cable for ethernet. If you think that's a
> problem, I had a much harder task when I installed our central vacuum
> system which required running 2 inch pipework!

Not as easy as that, unfortunately. There are two roof overhangs to
overcome, but the main objection is the cosmetic one of a cable running up
the front of the house; unlikely to be acceptable to my wife!
>
>> not sure what you meant by "If you have a router then why not plug it
>> into
>> one of the
>> extensions elsewhere in the house via the microfilter?". If the
>> extension
>> sockets and wiring are filtered, they can't be used for ADSL; but if I
>> don't
>> filter them, ADSL doesn't work. Perhaps I didn't make it clear: the
>> extensions are all filtered by a filter at the point where the extension
>> wiring connects to the main telephone socket.
>
> Then change the way you filter. Originally, BT installed ADSL by
> providing a new faceplate to the master socket and thus all extensions
> were then filtered by this one change. BT filtering off the ADSL from
> the voice at the master. When they switched to self install, it
> required the customer to install microfilters at each extension to keep
> the adsl off the voice signal. From a legal point of view you're not
> permitted to provide a replacement faceplate for the master socket other
> than those that plug into a socket behind the later faceplates.
>
> Essentially what i'm saying is that if you leave all the phone lines
> plugged straight into the master and then put the microfilters at the
> telephone end of the extension, that will work fine. I've done that
> before at my parents house, an old sturdily built house with real brick
> walls.
>


That won't work because of the capacitance problem. The sheer length of
cable in the telephone extensions - we have about seven - stops ADSL working
even when nothing is plugged into them. That's why I can't fileter at the
extension points. All the extensions are filtered just before the BT master
socket.

>> Again, needing a cable run? or are you suggesting that a second AP in the
>> same room would help?
>
> No somewhere else but try what I've posted above first.
>
> Unfortunately, wireless is a marketing issue. The box says "Range 450
> feet" or whatever. Yes in open space that's fine, houses suck
> basically. You can also make it go a few kilometers within ETSI power
> regulation too if you change antennas but that's not necessarily going
> to be best for you here. As I said, this is one of the weak points of
> having a combined modem/access point. You really want the AP central
> but nobody seems to place telephone extensions in the airing cupboard
> either hence the router somewhere and a single ethernet to the airing
> cupboard is handy. It's not that hard to do either if you think about
> it. Drill through the outside wall by a phone point, run the cable up
> the wall, into the loft space and down from the header tank following
> the water pipe run to the hot water cylinder.
>
> The other way you *could* do it although more expensively, is to use the
> ethernet powerline extenders where you plug a dongle into a mains socket
> at each end and they have ethernet ports on them and use that to locate
> an AP more favourably.

I might well have to try that. Sounds a good solution.

Chris R

"ChrisR" <(E-Mail Removed) y.com.address>
wrote in message
news:435be2f5$0$73602$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "David Taylor" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) d.com...
>> The other way you *could* do it although more expensively, is to use the
>> ethernet powerline extenders where you plug a dongle into a mains socket
>> at each end and they have ethernet ports on them and use that to locate
>> an AP more favourably.
>
> I might well have to try that. Sounds a good solution.
>
Is there such a product in the UK? I've Googled and looked through a couple
of likely suppliers with no luck. The Netgear wireless range extender over
mains sockets doesn't seem to have a UK version.

Or perhaps I should upgrade to a MIMO AP?

Chris R

> overcome, but the main objection is the cosmetic one of a cable running up
> the front of the house; unlikely to be acceptable to my wife!

Have you considered changing the wife? It could be an easier solution.


> That won't work because of the capacitance problem. The sheer length of
> cable in the telephone extensions - we have about seven - stops ADSL working
> even when nothing is plugged into them. That's why I can't fileter at the

Not sure I see the problem? The signal has trundled all the way along
from the BT box, potentially a few km and the problem is the extra bit
of cabling in your house?! I appreciate it's your house but if you
can't get the router to work at any one of the extensions with a
microfilter plugged in there then there's something wrong. It shouldn't
be your house cabling producing that problem as far as I see it.

> I might well have to try that. Sounds a good solution.

See first comment re: wife.

David.

> Is there such a product in the UK? I've Googled and looked through a couple
> of likely suppliers with no luck. The Netgear wireless range extender over
> mains sockets doesn't seem to have a UK version.

Yes Maplin and PC World sell them for starters as well as plenty others.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...rking+uk&meta=

David.

> Not sure I see the problem? The signal has trundled all the way along
> from the BT box, potentially a few km and the problem is the extra bit
> of cabling in your house?! I appreciate it's your house but if you
> can't get the router to work at any one of the extensions with a
> microfilter plugged in there then there's something wrong. It shouldn't
> be your house cabling producing that problem as far as I see it.
>
I'm not a techie but it took me a long time to solve and I understand the
problem isn't entirely unknown. There could be a minor fault on one of the
extensions but most likely it's the sheer length of what is probably
low-quality telephone extension cable hanging off the BT socket. The
capacitance - if I've got the right terminology - of all that wire was
enough to stop the ADSL modem from achieving sync. Short of ripping the wire
out of the wall and replacing it, there isn't much I can do - I can't even
isolate individual extensions to find the source of the problem, as they all
emerge as one cable at the BT socket. Of course I tried unplugging
everything from the extension sockets, but that made no difference. With a
filter between the BT socket and the extensions, ADSL works; without, it
doesn't.

Thanks for your help

Chris R