New to Wireless-Can't I Buy My Own Equip?

I need some hand holding I live in a rural area where cable and dsl are
not available. Satellite is available but very expensive startup and from
what I read, not too stable.
I've been waiting for over a year on a company to put up a wireless tower.
Just found out last week that they've shelved the plan for this tower
because someone has installed a
tower and "the two towers would cause interference and both companies would
have problems". Really? So in large metropolitan areas there's only one
wireless company??
I've been given a price of $597 startup cost (hardware/install and setup)
and $49 a month (no contract and I purchase the equipment from them). This
gets me 512K download.
The owner went on to explain I *could* go to Best Buy and buy my equipment
but it isn't very good quality (and of course, his is). I have no idea what
GOOD wireless hardware costs
or what is considered good quality or what I need. As well versed in
computers as I am, I'm that clueless to anything wireless This is a lot
of money and I know the fact that there is no competition
in the area is why it's so expensive. If I can get the price down by buying
my own equipment, I really need to. I don't know if this will help or not
but he did say that some companies
install a tower at your house but he doesn't. He installs some kind of
(box?) on an existing structure such as a TV tower. Any info, tips, advice
you can offer would be much
appreciated. Oh, my Dell computer is P4 3.2ghz, 1GB ram. Looking under
Network Adapters in Device Manager, I have a 1394 Net Adapter and Broadcom
NetXtreme 57xx GB Net Controller...just in
case any of that matters <g>

Thanks,
Monica

One more thing. DH wanted me to find out just how long these devices (that
I need for wireless) last. I'm guessing just like most other
computer hardware...most last until you're ready to upgrade, some are
defective and drop dead within weeks.
"Monica" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:jwVHf.1908$Tf3.589@dukeread09...
>I need some hand holding I live in a rural area where cable and dsl are
>not available. Satellite is available but very expensive startup and from
>what I read, not too stable.
> I've been waiting for over a year on a company to put up a wireless tower.
> Just found out last week that they've shelved the plan for this tower
> because someone has installed a
> tower and "the two towers would cause interference and both companies
> would have problems". Really? So in large metropolitan areas there's
> only one wireless company??
> I've been given a price of $597 startup cost (hardware/install and setup)
> and $49 a month (no contract and I purchase the equipment from them).
> This gets me 512K download.
> The owner went on to explain I *could* go to Best Buy and buy my equipment
> but it isn't very good quality (and of course, his is). I have no idea
> what GOOD wireless hardware costs
> or what is considered good quality or what I need. As well versed in
> computers as I am, I'm that clueless to anything wireless This is a
> lot of money and I know the fact that there is no competition
> in the area is why it's so expensive. If I can get the price down by
> buying my own equipment, I really need to. I don't know if this will help
> or not but he did say that some companies
> install a tower at your house but he doesn't. He installs some kind of
> (box?) on an existing structure such as a TV tower. Any info, tips,
> advice you can offer would be much
> appreciated. Oh, my Dell computer is P4 3.2ghz, 1GB ram. Looking under
> Network Adapters in Device Manager, I have a 1394 Net Adapter and Broadcom
> NetXtreme 57xx GB Net Controller...just in
> case any of that matters <g>
>
> Thanks,
> Monica
>

I'm afraid I can't give you any specific help, Monica - I'm kind of
newbie, too. But I think the WiFi gurus who hang out here would require
a bit more detail about your situation before they could help much.

For example, could you tell us the name and location of the company who
is proposing to mount HIS equipment on YOUR tower, and the approximate
distance between you and him? Are there hills/mountains/trees/lakes
between his access point and your home?

Part of the outrageous startup cost could be due to a complicated link
design because of geography and distance. And don't pay a penny until
you've tested it in a rainstorm!

- Jeff

"Monica" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>I need some hand holding I live in a rural area where cable and dsl are
>not available.

Bummer.

>Satellite is available but very expensive startup and from
>what I read, not too stable.

I don't know what you mean by "not too stable". I have customers
using DirecWay and it works well enough. The major complaints are
that uploads are incredibly slow, download preformance is awful during
peak hours, latency causes VoIP and VPN's to be useless, and weather
has a big effect on everything. Personally, I would suggest satellite
internet as the last resort, when nothing else is available.

>I've been waiting for over a year on a company to put up a wireless tower.
>Just found out last week that they've shelved the plan for this tower
>because someone has installed a
>tower and "the two towers would cause interference and both companies would
>have problems". Really? So in large metropolitan areas there's only one
>wireless company??

Really. Interference among WISP (wireless ISP) installations is a
common and serious problem. Add a few municipal networks and usual
clueless individual with an RF power amplifier, and nobody
communicates. The WISP's solve such problems by coordinating
frequencies (there's really only 3 channels available), elaborate
antenna patterns, or just fighting it out. It's no fun.

The way large metro areas are handled is to use small "cells" for
covering the city. No WISP tries to cover the entire city from one
location. That's not because of interference, but because the number
of clients per access point and backhaul bandwidth are often limited.
More access points simply means more customers. If your small town
has a limited number of potential customers, then a WISP might elect
to start with a single central wireless access point, and grow from
there. Starting out with an elaborate system of access points,
backhauls, routers, and towers is expensive for the WISP.

>I've been given a price of $597 startup cost (hardware/install and setup)
>and $49 a month (no contract and I purchase the equipment from them). This
>gets me 512K download.

That's about typical. Figure on 2 hours install and setup for about
$150-$200. That leaves $400 for the hardware. If you bought your
own, my guess is your cash expenditures would be:
1. 24dBi dish $ 70
2. Pole mounted PoE client bridge (Tranzeo TR-CPE90-Nf) $220
3. Rooftop mounting hardware $ 40
4. CAT5 and misc network wiring. $ 10
================================================== ===========
Total $340

You probably cut the $220 for the radio down by using a commodity
wireless indoor client bridge (WET54G, WAP54G, etc), repackaging it
for outdoor use, and adding a PoE adapter. At best, you'll save about
$100.

Also note that if you have more than one computer, you *MAY* need to
purchase an ethernet router. This will vary by WISP depending on how
they deliver their IP addresses. If they issue one IP address per
computer, you can live without the added router. If they deliver only
one, you have another $70 expense. This will probably be in addition
to either the $600 package deal, or your do-it-thyself conglomeration.

If you have a particularly good location with a view, you might be
able to get away with an indoor client bridge, a few feet of LMR-400
caox cable, and a rooftop antenna. 25ft of LMR-400 with "N"
connectors will cost about $40. You'll also need a "pigtail" to go
from whatever client bridge radio uses to "N" for about $15. The
cable is very lossy and will have lousy performance compared to an
antenna mounted radio.

>The owner went on to explain I *could* go to Best Buy and buy my equipment
>but it isn't very good quality (and of course, his is). I have no idea what
>GOOD wireless hardware costs

There's a big difference between something that's meant to operate
indoors and what will survive outdoors. For typical outdoor client
radios, see:
http://tranzeo.com/index.php?section..._section_id=92

>or what is considered good quality or what I need. As well versed in
>computers as I am, I'm that clueless to anything wireless This is a lot
>of money and I know the fact that there is no competition
>in the area is why it's so expensive.

Do the math. $600 installed is about the vendors cost. That's also
about what a satellite internet setup costs except that these tend to
be partially subsidized by Direcway. The actual cost of the hardware
and installers time is much more.

>If I can get the price down by buying
>my own equipment, I really need to. I don't know if this will help or not
>but he did say that some companies
>install a tower at your house but he doesn't. He installs some kind of
>(box?) on an existing structure such as a TV tower. Any info, tips, advice
>you can offer would be much
>appreciated.

It's difficult to pass judgement on a prospective installation without
knowing what the vendor is going to supply. As you noted, it's also
not just for the radio and antenna. You MUST have line of sight to
wherever he's locating his access point. Without line of sight, it
won't work. If you're fairly close, you might be able to get a
connection, but it will vary and fade when the wind blows through the
trees, when the obstructions move around, and when the leaves
re-appear in the summer. The tower, pole, pipe, or mounting should be
part of the installation but is difficult to estimate without a "site
survey". That's where they come out to your house and try to guess
what it will take to provide service. Add that to the cost.

>Oh, my Dell computer is P4 3.2ghz, 1GB ram. Looking under
>Network Adapters in Device Manager, I have a 1394 Net Adapter and Broadcom
>NetXtreme 57xx GB Net Controller...just in
>case any of that matters <g>

Well, you have an ethernet port, which is all that's necessary.

>Thanks,
>Monica

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff, thank you so much for you detailed answer

"not too stable" was just my way of saying what you said about satellite <g>

I was taken aback by the startup price because the provider I've been
waiting on for over a year has a startup fee of $189 but I don't know if
that is leasing or owning the equipment and perhaps his equipment
isn't the quality as the other provider's is.

We only have one computer in the house. The house is brick, single story.
The tv tower that the outside equipment will attach to (DirecTV dish is on
it as well) is on one end of the house and the computer is at the
other...house is 50 feet long. I'm about 2 miles from the tower in town.
It's on the town's water tower. I live in an elevated area that is free of
trees. Of course there are trees between me and the tower but I'm sure it's
not going to be a problem. The line of sight should be quite good.

One more thing. Would you mind looking at this thread concerning WISPs
speed, service price, and location?
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13329621
The vast majority of the speeds are soooooo much faster than what I'm being
offered (and often less spendy). I'm told the connect speed will be
512kbps (I think) and when I'm downloading, I can expect 64KB/sec. A lot of
these folks are getting >1MB/second downloads. That's why this is such a
hard decision. The price sounds high and the service sounds really slow
(compared to what I'm reading).

Thanks once again for your time and advice

Monica


"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Monica" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
>>I need some hand holding I live in a rural area where cable and dsl
>>are
>>not available.
>
> Bummer.
>
>>Satellite is available but very expensive startup and from
>>what I read, not too stable.
>
> I don't know what you mean by "not too stable". I have customers
> using DirecWay and it works well enough. The major complaints are
> that uploads are incredibly slow, download preformance is awful during
> peak hours, latency causes VoIP and VPN's to be useless, and weather
> has a big effect on everything. Personally, I would suggest satellite
> internet as the last resort, when nothing else is available.
>
>>I've been waiting for over a year on a company to put up a wireless tower.
>>Just found out last week that they've shelved the plan for this tower
>>because someone has installed a
>>tower and "the two towers would cause interference and both companies
>>would
>>have problems". Really? So in large metropolitan areas there's only one
>>wireless company??
>
> Really. Interference among WISP (wireless ISP) installations is a
> common and serious problem. Add a few municipal networks and usual
> clueless individual with an RF power amplifier, and nobody
> communicates. The WISP's solve such problems by coordinating
> frequencies (there's really only 3 channels available), elaborate
> antenna patterns, or just fighting it out. It's no fun.
>
> The way large metro areas are handled is to use small "cells" for
> covering the city. No WISP tries to cover the entire city from one
> location. That's not because of interference, but because the number
> of clients per access point and backhaul bandwidth are often limited.
> More access points simply means more customers. If your small town
> has a limited number of potential customers, then a WISP might elect
> to start with a single central wireless access point, and grow from
> there. Starting out with an elaborate system of access points,
> backhauls, routers, and towers is expensive for the WISP.
>
>>I've been given a price of $597 startup cost (hardware/install and setup)
>>and $49 a month (no contract and I purchase the equipment from them).
>>This
>>gets me 512K download.
>
> That's about typical. Figure on 2 hours install and setup for about
> $150-$200. That leaves $400 for the hardware. If you bought your
> own, my guess is your cash expenditures would be:
> 1. 24dBi dish $ 70
> 2. Pole mounted PoE client bridge (Tranzeo TR-CPE90-Nf) $220
> 3. Rooftop mounting hardware $ 40
> 4. CAT5 and misc network wiring. $ 10
> ================================================== ===========
> Total $340
>
> You probably cut the $220 for the radio down by using a commodity
> wireless indoor client bridge (WET54G, WAP54G, etc), repackaging it
> for outdoor use, and adding a PoE adapter. At best, you'll save about
> $100.
>
> Also note that if you have more than one computer, you *MAY* need to
> purchase an ethernet router. This will vary by WISP depending on how
> they deliver their IP addresses. If they issue one IP address per
> computer, you can live without the added router. If they deliver only
> one, you have another $70 expense. This will probably be in addition
> to either the $600 package deal, or your do-it-thyself conglomeration.
>
> If you have a particularly good location with a view, you might be
> able to get away with an indoor client bridge, a few feet of LMR-400
> caox cable, and a rooftop antenna. 25ft of LMR-400 with "N"
> connectors will cost about $40. You'll also need a "pigtail" to go
> from whatever client bridge radio uses to "N" for about $15. The
> cable is very lossy and will have lousy performance compared to an
> antenna mounted radio.
>
>>The owner went on to explain I *could* go to Best Buy and buy my equipment
>>but it isn't very good quality (and of course, his is). I have no idea
>>what
>>GOOD wireless hardware costs
>
> There's a big difference between something that's meant to operate
> indoors and what will survive outdoors. For typical outdoor client
> radios, see:
> http://tranzeo.com/index.php?section..._section_id=92
>
>>or what is considered good quality or what I need. As well versed in
>>computers as I am, I'm that clueless to anything wireless This is a
>>lot
>>of money and I know the fact that there is no competition
>>in the area is why it's so expensive.
>
> Do the math. $600 installed is about the vendors cost. That's also
> about what a satellite internet setup costs except that these tend to
> be partially subsidized by Direcway. The actual cost of the hardware
> and installers time is much more.
>
>>If I can get the price down by buying
>>my own equipment, I really need to. I don't know if this will help or not
>>but he did say that some companies
>>install a tower at your house but he doesn't. He installs some kind of
>>(box?) on an existing structure such as a TV tower. Any info, tips,
>>advice
>>you can offer would be much
>>appreciated.
>
> It's difficult to pass judgement on a prospective installation without
> knowing what the vendor is going to supply. As you noted, it's also
> not just for the radio and antenna. You MUST have line of sight to
> wherever he's locating his access point. Without line of sight, it
> won't work. If you're fairly close, you might be able to get a
> connection, but it will vary and fade when the wind blows through the
> trees, when the obstructions move around, and when the leaves
> re-appear in the summer. The tower, pole, pipe, or mounting should be
> part of the installation but is difficult to estimate without a "site
> survey". That's where they come out to your house and try to guess
> what it will take to provide service. Add that to the cost.
>
>>Oh, my Dell computer is P4 3.2ghz, 1GB ram. Looking under
>>Network Adapters in Device Manager, I have a 1394 Net Adapter and Broadcom
>>NetXtreme 57xx GB Net Controller...just in
>>case any of that matters <g>
>
> Well, you have an ethernet port, which is all that's necessary.
>
>>Thanks,
>>Monica
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Monica" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>I was taken aback by the startup price because the provider I've been
>waiting on for over a year has a startup fee of $189 but I don't know if
>that is leasing or owning the equipment and perhaps his equipment
>isn't the quality as the other provider's is.

Well, there's not much that I can tell you about the quality of their
equipment. Most WISP's don't want to be in the loan business and
prefer that the customer owns their equipment. Since the price
includes installation, I suspect that it's a sale, not a lease or
rental.

>We only have one computer in the house. The house is brick, single story.
>The tv tower that the outside equipment will attach to (DirecTV dish is on
>it as well) is on one end of the house and the computer is at the
>other...house is 50 feet long.

The installation inside the house will probably we wired, not
wireless. If possible, run CAT5 cable from wherever the radio will be
located to the computer.

>I'm about 2 miles from the tower in town.
>It's on the town's water tower. I live in an elevated area that is free of
>trees. Of course there are trees between me and the tower but I'm sure it's
>not going to be a problem. The line of sight should be quite good.

That sounds perfect. 2 miles is no problem with a big antenna. Think
of a 3ft by 2ft barbeque grill dish antenna on your roof. There are
some potential problems that I didn't mention.

1. You need more than just line of sight. You need what's called
Fresnel Zone clearance. At 2 miles, you need about 25-30ft radius
clearance at midpoint of the path. That includes trees, building, and
the ground. You can live with slightly less, but you'll experience
some path loss problems.

2. Interference from other 2.4Ghz system is always a problem. Someone
should do a "site survey" with a spectrum analyzer and Kismet on a
laptop along the path (and beyond) to make sure there are no suprises.
Fortunately, a highly directional dish antenna will be a big help in
reducing interference, but if there is a large office or apartment
building, or leaky microwave oven, or railroad wireless system, or
whatever, along the path, there will be problems.

>One more thing. Would you mind looking at this thread concerning WISPs
>speed, service price, and location?
>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13329621
>The vast majority of the speeds are soooooo much faster than what I'm being
>offered (and often less spendy). I'm told the connect speed will be
>512kbps (I think) and when I'm downloading, I can expect 64KB/sec. A lot of
>these folks are getting >1MB/second downloads. That's why this is such a
>hard decision. The price sounds high and the service sounds really slow
>(compared to what I'm reading).

Sigh. I looked at the reports and they are a mixture of actual
performance tests and advertised speeds. I cannot see any pattern
between the results and price. Having been involved in a wireless
ISP, I can assure you that speed is dependent on literally everything
and can be almost any number. WISP's all throttle the bandwidth
delivered to users in order to prevent one user from hogging the
entire bandwidth. They also use it offer various performance and
price levels.

Perhaps it would be best if I could offer some questions to ask your
prospective WISP vendor. Standard system loading for residential
customers is about 10:1. That means that they will advertise 10 times
as much aggregate bandwidth as their backhaul allows. For example, if
an access point has a T1 (1.5Mbits/sec) backhaul, the ISP could
connect 15 customers and offer 1Mbit/sec service, without much
difficulty. Or, they could connect 45 customers and offer each
500Kbits/sec service. Any more than 10:1 and customers will probably
complain. So, the first question is: How fast is the backhaul per
access point? That's what really limits your performance. It's also
one of the most expensive parts of the WISP business.

Next is the 512Kbits/sec peak, average, or "up to" speeds? Is it
symmetrical (512Kbit/sec in both directions)? Can you get more speed
if you pay more? For how long can you sustain 512Kbits/sec before the
ISP's router QoS throttles the speed? Can you do streaming video?
What's the latency (ping time) to the internet. This will affect
VoIP. As you may notice, there are many ways to define and deliver
512Kbits/sec. The question is how does your prospective ISP do it.

As for price, please realize that your prospective WISP probably pays
good money to the city for space on the water tower. He's also
probably required to carry enough insurance to cover anything that can
go wrong. If he has an estabilished wired ISP business, he probably
has all the necessary staff and hardware to properly support the
customer base. If he's just getting started, he'll need to build a
support and services structure, which are not cheap. If he has to
compete against cable modem and DSL vendors, that are offering
internet access at what I suspect might be below cost levels, he'll be
out of business rather quickly. There is no way that a newly minted
WISP can offer service at DSL or cable modem starting prices.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> "Monica" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

> >I need some hand holding I live in a rural area where cable and dsl
> >are not available.

> The way large metro areas are handled is to use small "cells" for
> covering the city. No WISP tries to cover the entire city from one

You're talking about commodity 2.4GHz wireless. Since this ISP said
something about buying equipment at Best Buy, that's a good guess.

What about licensed WISPs? www.ntcac.com in Lake County provides something
that is not 802.11. They have towers that cover a few miles, so the
coverage is limited.

www.Sonic.net offers wDSL from www.broadlink.com. That is also not 802.11.

Other thoughts would include Verizon cellular wireless, at higher speeds
and about the same cost, if cellular coverage is available.

Cingluar has cellular EGPRS, offering about 150kbps for $60. That's
available almost anywhere that Cingular has signal.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5