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New hotspot.... how?

 
 
yv6eda
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      10-01-2005, 01:42 PM
Hello guys:
My project is to create a free hotspot at my building home,
a concrete 4 floor, (21x4) apartments building.

My building have a L shape, aprox. 40 by 125 meters
Place: Little town on Canada.
My experience is none, except for the fact of my own wireless network at
home.

I have a lot of questions, but let me start with the basic:

I have to do a special contract with the ISP(Rogers), or almost let they
know about the project?
Is Bell better provider for the project?
If I install AP devices (1 or 2) along the long arm, what model is the best
(Cost-Benefit)?, can the devices setup like repeaters and AP simultaneasly?
Do you think I need to install AP devices on each floor?

May i use my own d_link DI-624 router?

What software if needed?

Please be patient whit me... and my "Tarzan" english...

Thanks in advance...


 
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Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: n/a

 
      10-01-2005, 04:48 PM
On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 09:42:18 -0400, "yv6eda" <yv6eda"at"softhome.net>
wrote:

>My project is to create a free hotspot at my building home,
>a concrete 4 floor, (21x4) apartments building.
>My building have a L shape, aprox. 40 by 125 meters


Big. It probably cannot be done with one access point, especially due
to the "L" shape. Placement of radios are critical. The usual method
is to "illuminate" the building from the outside and go through the
windows. Going though poured concrete is almost impossible. If you
have access to the adjacent buildings, this should be easy. If not,
you are about to have a major problem locating the access points.

>Place: Little town on Canada.
>My experience is none, except for the fact of my own wireless network at
>home.


Fine. You have some hardware. Drag the access point over to the
neighboring building. Attach a somewhat directional antenna (sector
antenna or panel antenna) to "illuminate" one wall of the building.
Take your client radio and laptop and do what's called a site survey.
The idea is to estimate what manner of coverage and reliability you'll
achieve. Netstumbler and a set of blueprints will work, but there are
also professional (overpriced) site survey programs. At the same
time, look for sources of interference. If the local municipality has
a mesh network, or there are existing WISP (wireless ISP) systems in
the area, you will have LOTS of interference.

>I have a lot of questions, but let me start with the basic:


Not so fast. You gotta do some homework first. Read:
| http://www.intel.com/business/bss/in...nt/hotspot.pdf
When you have the terms, buzzwords, and methodologies nailed, then
come back and ask some questions.

I also suggest you read:
| http://www.isp-wireless.com
mailing list for those with some experience in apartment building
networks.

>I have to do a special contract with the ISP(Rogers), or almost let they
>know about the project?


Have you read your Rogers Cable AUS and TOS contracts? Generally,
redistribution is prohibited by contract. However, that depends on
whether you have consumer or business class service. For consumer,
start here:
https://www.shoprogers.com/about/legaldisclaimer.asp
Quoting the AUP at:
http://www.rogershelp.com/yahoo/down...ements/AUP.PDF
"You may not resell, share, or otherwise distribute the Services
or any portion thereof to any third party without the written
consent of Rogers."

>Is Bell better provider for the project?


I'm not familiar with Canadian ISP's. You may want to investigate
Comerica ISP's that allow reselling of their bandwidth. If you bring
in a T1 you'll have the advantage of 1.5Mbits/sec in both directions
instead of one.

>If I install AP devices (1 or 2) along the long arm, what model is the best
>(Cost-Benefit)?, can the devices setup like repeaters and AP simultaneasly?



Repeaters should be avoided if it is possible to run a CAT5 cable
between the main router and the remote access points. If the use is
high enough, you may find yourself installing more than one access
point at each location. Repeater rebroadcast what they hear and
therefore fill the airwaves with duplicated packets. Since only one
radio in the entire system may transmit at a time, repeater will cause
considerable RF congestion. Same with mesh networks. Avoid if
possible.

>Do you think I need to install AP devices on each floor?


I have no idea. Post a photo of the building and some clue as to the
areas you want to cover and we can make a better guess. If you
illuminate from the outside of the building, chances are good you can
get away with a small number of access points. If you try it from the
inside, I'm sure the number will be much larger.

You'll probably need separate access points in the public areas.

>May i use my own d_link DI-624 router?


No. What you want are access points, not router. You can convert a
wireless router into an access point, but there are better products.
You're main problem is going to be managing this mess. You can't do
that with commodity hardware. Look at something like:
http://www.3com.com/en_US/jump_page/abg_wireless.html
http://www.symbol.com/products/wirel..._brochure.html
http://www.arubanetworks.com/products/

>What software if needed?


I'll generalize by function rather than by vendor as you will need to
do some shopping.
1. Bandwidth management (so nobody hogs the whole system)
2. Abuse management (disconnect hackers)
3. Intrusion detection.
4. Virus/worm/whatever firewall.
5. User authorization and administration (passwords and 802.1x
RADIUS)
6. Encryption management.
7. RF diagnostics (error rate, signal strength, etc)
8. Channel plan mange men. (what channels and where)
9. Transient user management. (temporary visitor use)
10. Billing?
11. Traffic monitoring and recording.
12. DMCA compliance???
Plus whatever else I forgot. There's plenty more the management
software should do, but I haven't had my morning coffee yet.

Think of this as a system. Pretend it's all working and installed.
Now, how are you going to run it and deal with clients and tech
issues? Better yet, *WHO* is going to run it? That's the "real"
problem.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
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Jeff Liebermann
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      10-01-2005, 05:29 PM
On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 09:48:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Have you read your Rogers Cable AUS and TOS contracts? Generally,
>redistribution is prohibited by contract. However, that depends on
>whether you have consumer or business class service. For consumer,
>start here:
> https://www.shoprogers.com/about/legaldisclaimer.asp
>Quoting the AUP at:
> http://www.rogershelp.com/yahoo/down...ements/AUP.PDF
> "You may not resell, share, or otherwise distribute the Services
> or any portion thereof to any third party without the written
> consent of Rogers."


A bit more from Rogers Cable/Yahoo "End User Agreement":
http://na.edit.client.yahoo.com/roge...atic?.form=eua
which proclaims that one may not:
"resell or use the Services (including any Equipment) for anything
other than your own personal purposes. Without limitation, you may
not use the Services to provide Internet access or any other feature
of the Services to any third party and you may not use the Services
for any commercial or business purposes;"

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
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yv6eda
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      10-02-2005, 12:09 AM
OK Jeff, first of all thanks very much for your answer, I'm now with the
feet on the ground and I can start. Mi project is to give free internet
access to my community, I can explain my personal reasons for this
particular project in another time then, first I was looking for some
advice, and your answer give me many of them. BTW I think you are a Ham like
me... nice... I'm YV6EDA from Venezuela, but living here for the last 3
years, ok.

I want to use your answer to clarificate my toughts, then let me go for
parts, I hope my questions don't borrow you.
Starting for the viability of the project, I live an work in this
buildings... 2 4 floor buildings, A is aprox 40X125 and B 95X25 meters.
The aprox shape from the cenit is (I don't know if this will be work:

___________________
| |
| B |
|______________ |
| |
____ | |
| | |____|
| |
| |____________________
| X |
| A |
|_________________________|

Each building is in L shape, and I live at building A in X (4th floor),
following your idea, If I install an AP1 on building B "illuminating A, and
AP2 on building A illuminating B, it's possible to cover both buildings...
but I have suites on both sides of each building.

I'm thinking the first movement is to buy an AP and do my buildings reserch.
When I refer to my router before, means if I use that router like a router
with an ap to do my reserch. BTW what AP, D-Link?

Let me stop here, I hope my project catch your interest...
73


"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 09:42:18 -0400, "yv6eda" <yv6eda"at"softhome.net>
> wrote:
>
>>My project is to create a free hotspot at my building home,
>>a concrete 4 floor, (21x4) apartments building.
>>My building have a L shape, aprox. 40 by 125 meters

>
> Big. It probably cannot be done with one access point, especially due
> to the "L" shape. Placement of radios are critical. The usual method
> is to "illuminate" the building from the outside and go through the
> windows. Going though poured concrete is almost impossible. If you
> have access to the adjacent buildings, this should be easy. If not,
> you are about to have a major problem locating the access points.
>
>>Place: Little town on Canada.
>>My experience is none, except for the fact of my own wireless network at
>>home.

>
> Fine. You have some hardware. Drag the access point over to the
> neighboring building. Attach a somewhat directional antenna (sector
> antenna or panel antenna) to "illuminate" one wall of the building.
> Take your client radio and laptop and do what's called a site survey.
> The idea is to estimate what manner of coverage and reliability you'll
> achieve. Netstumbler and a set of blueprints will work, but there are
> also professional (overpriced) site survey programs. At the same
> time, look for sources of interference. If the local municipality has
> a mesh network, or there are existing WISP (wireless ISP) systems in
> the area, you will have LOTS of interference.
>
>>I have a lot of questions, but let me start with the basic:

>
> Not so fast. You gotta do some homework first. Read:
> |
> http://www.intel.com/business/bss/in...nt/hotspot.pdf
> When you have the terms, buzzwords, and methodologies nailed, then
> come back and ask some questions.
>
> I also suggest you read:
> | http://www.isp-wireless.com
> mailing list for those with some experience in apartment building
> networks.
>
>>I have to do a special contract with the ISP(Rogers), or almost let they
>>know about the project?

>
> Have you read your Rogers Cable AUS and TOS contracts? Generally,
> redistribution is prohibited by contract. However, that depends on
> whether you have consumer or business class service. For consumer,
> start here:
> https://www.shoprogers.com/about/legaldisclaimer.asp
> Quoting the AUP at:
> http://www.rogershelp.com/yahoo/down...ements/AUP.PDF
> "You may not resell, share, or otherwise distribute the Services
> or any portion thereof to any third party without the written
> consent of Rogers."
>
>>Is Bell better provider for the project?

>
> I'm not familiar with Canadian ISP's. You may want to investigate
> Comerica ISP's that allow reselling of their bandwidth. If you bring
> in a T1 you'll have the advantage of 1.5Mbits/sec in both directions
> instead of one.
>
>>If I install AP devices (1 or 2) along the long arm, what model is the
>>best
>>(Cost-Benefit)?, can the devices setup like repeaters and AP
>>simultaneasly?

>
>
> Repeaters should be avoided if it is possible to run a CAT5 cable
> between the main router and the remote access points. If the use is
> high enough, you may find yourself installing more than one access
> point at each location. Repeater rebroadcast what they hear and
> therefore fill the airwaves with duplicated packets. Since only one
> radio in the entire system may transmit at a time, repeater will cause
> considerable RF congestion. Same with mesh networks. Avoid if
> possible.
>
>>Do you think I need to install AP devices on each floor?

>
> I have no idea. Post a photo of the building and some clue as to the
> areas you want to cover and we can make a better guess. If you
> illuminate from the outside of the building, chances are good you can
> get away with a small number of access points. If you try it from the
> inside, I'm sure the number will be much larger.
>
> You'll probably need separate access points in the public areas.
>
>>May i use my own d_link DI-624 router?

>
> No. What you want are access points, not router. You can convert a
> wireless router into an access point, but there are better products.
> You're main problem is going to be managing this mess. You can't do
> that with commodity hardware. Look at something like:
> http://www.3com.com/en_US/jump_page/abg_wireless.html
> http://www.symbol.com/products/wirel..._brochure.html
> http://www.arubanetworks.com/products/
>
>>What software if needed?

>
> I'll generalize by function rather than by vendor as you will need to
> do some shopping.
> 1. Bandwidth management (so nobody hogs the whole system)
> 2. Abuse management (disconnect hackers)
> 3. Intrusion detection.
> 4. Virus/worm/whatever firewall.
> 5. User authorization and administration (passwords and 802.1x
> RADIUS)
> 6. Encryption management.
> 7. RF diagnostics (error rate, signal strength, etc)
> 8. Channel plan mange men. (what channels and where)
> 9. Transient user management. (temporary visitor use)
> 10. Billing?
> 11. Traffic monitoring and recording.
> 12. DMCA compliance???
> Plus whatever else I forgot. There's plenty more the management
> software should do, but I haven't had my morning coffee yet.
>
> Think of this as a system. Pretend it's all working and installed.
> Now, how are you going to run it and deal with clients and tech
> issues? Better yet, *WHO* is going to run it? That's the "real"
> problem.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558



 
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Doz
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      10-02-2005, 12:50 AM
Take look here... www.locustworld.com

free software in the form of a CD image to run on a laptop or old PC with
wifi and network cat5 card... acts as a hotspot.

Or do it the easy way and buy a Mesh box off them and it's plug and play.

Doz

"yv6eda" <yv6eda"at"softhome.net> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
> Hello guys:
> My project is to create a free hotspot at my building home,
> a concrete 4 floor, (21x4) apartments building.
>
> My building have a L shape, aprox. 40 by 125 meters
> Place: Little town on Canada.
> My experience is none, except for the fact of my own wireless network at
> home.
>
> I have a lot of questions, but let me start with the basic:
>
> I have to do a special contract with the ISP(Rogers), or almost let they
> know about the project?
> Is Bell better provider for the project?
> If I install AP devices (1 or 2) along the long arm, what model is the

best
> (Cost-Benefit)?, can the devices setup like repeaters and AP

simultaneasly?
> Do you think I need to install AP devices on each floor?
>
> May i use my own d_link DI-624 router?
>
> What software if needed?
>
> Please be patient whit me... and my "Tarzan" english...
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
>



 
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Doz
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      10-02-2005, 12:52 AM
Ohh.. and for more coverage add another box.. it auto meshes to provide
extra distance. Without a LAN connection it configures as a relay.


"Doz" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:433f2eb4$0$21365$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Take look here... www.locustworld.com
>
> free software in the form of a CD image to run on a laptop or old PC with
> wifi and network cat5 card... acts as a hotspot.
>
> Or do it the easy way and buy a Mesh box off them and it's plug and play.
>
> Doz
>
> "yv6eda" <yv6eda"at"softhome.net> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
> > Hello guys:
> > My project is to create a free hotspot at my building home,
> > a concrete 4 floor, (21x4) apartments building.
> >
> > My building have a L shape, aprox. 40 by 125 meters
> > Place: Little town on Canada.
> > My experience is none, except for the fact of my own wireless network at
> > home.
> >
> > I have a lot of questions, but let me start with the basic:
> >
> > I have to do a special contract with the ISP(Rogers), or almost let they
> > know about the project?
> > Is Bell better provider for the project?
> > If I install AP devices (1 or 2) along the long arm, what model is the

> best
> > (Cost-Benefit)?, can the devices setup like repeaters and AP

> simultaneasly?
> > Do you think I need to install AP devices on each floor?
> >
> > May i use my own d_link DI-624 router?
> >
> > What software if needed?
> >
> > Please be patient whit me... and my "Tarzan" english...
> >
> > Thanks in advance...
> >
> >

>
>



 
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heldmar
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Posts: n/a

 
      10-03-2005, 11:12 AM
Hi yv6eda, I'm Venezuelan too, maybe I could help you with your project
if you tell me what you really want to do because I couldn't understand
what is the real thing you're looking for in your questions. Sorry to
write you in english, but if not, people here in the group would get
angry. Anyway, you can write me directly to my email or publish yours
and I'll write you.

 
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yv6eda
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      10-03-2005, 11:49 AM
Thanks Heldmar, Well basicly I wan to create a free wireless network on my
building. I'm trying to install a network of hardware to give free basic
internet access at my 2 buildings comunity. I'm looking for expertise,
advise, hardware models/brand and all kind of info cause my own experience
in this area is with my own wireless network at home.

Jeff, on a previous message, open my eyes and now I know the project is far
larger than I think in the first steps, but I'm very positive, if I lern
enough, is possible I can put my ideas in order and, who knows, maybe I can
invite the buildings owner to participate.

I'll be waiting for your comments..
Thanks in advance...




"heldmar" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> Hi yv6eda, I'm Venezuelan too, maybe I could help you with your project
> if you tell me what you really want to do because I couldn't understand
> what is the real thing you're looking for in your questions. Sorry to
> write you in english, but if not, people here in the group would get
> angry. Anyway, you can write me directly to my email or publish yours
> and I'll write you.



 
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Jeff Liebermann
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      10-03-2005, 04:17 PM
On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 07:49:11 -0400, "yv6eda" <yv6eda"at"softhome.net>
wrote:

>Jeff, on a previous message, open my eyes and now I know the project is far
>larger than I think in the first steps, but I'm very positive, if I lern
>enough, is possible I can put my ideas in order and, who knows, maybe I can
>invite the buildings owner to participate.


You can starts small and grow as needed. The trick is to design the
systems from the strart with the intention to grow. It's fairly easy
to setup a one to three radio wireless hot-spot type of system that
requires minimum monitoring and management overhead. Beyond 3 radios,
life becomes complex. Even with 3 radios, bandwidth management
becomes critical as one user can saturate the entire bandwidth.

The vendors I supplied were all "wireless switch" vendors. Basically,
the radios (access points) are dumb and all the features and functions
reside in the central switch box. The advantages are central
management and security. The disadvantages are high initial cost and
a proprietary solution that locks you into one vendor.

Since this will start as an "amateur" adventure, I suggest you
research wireless hot spot software and technology. Something based
on a WRT54G with alternative firmware might be a good start. Most
versions include some form of bandwidth management. Place it in a
location where it can illuminate one wall of the building and see how
well it works. If it becomes popular, add more radios until you hit 3
total (channels 1, 6, 11).

At that point, be prepared to throw everything out and start over with
proper equipment. By this time, you should get a good feel for what I
mean't by administration and management. You will probably need to
build a "management server" for running central DHCP, SNMP management,
and monitoring. You should also exprience the 2AM telephone call from
the irate users, interference problems, worms, bandwidth hogging,
playing policeman for abusers. You should also have a good idea by
this time as to how large the system needs to be and how much it will
cost.

Good reading:
http://www.mikrotik.com
http://www.sputnik.com
http://www.sveasoft.com
http://www.linksysinfo.org (Firmware section under most popular)
http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/isp-wireless/resources/

I've helped build a WISP, run a neighborhood LAN, manage a few hot
spots, and have setup business and hotel WLAN's. However, mostly I
fix them when something goes wrong. Think of this exercise as setting
up a wired (telco or cable) ISP, but with the added hassle of having a
rather unreliable and uncontrolled delivery mechanism. It has all the
requirements of running a small utility service. In theory, the money
we charge compensates for the administrative overhead and
complications. I would not do it for free.

Best of luck
--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
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George
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Posts: n/a

 
      10-03-2005, 09:15 PM
yv6eda wrote:
> Thanks Heldmar, Well basicly I wan to create a free wireless network on my
> building. I'm trying to install a network of hardware to give free basic
> internet access at my 2 buildings comunity. I'm looking for expertise,
> advise, hardware models/brand and all kind of info cause my own experience
> in this area is with my own wireless network at home.
>
> Jeff, on a previous message, open my eyes and now I know the project is far
> larger than I think in the first steps, but I'm very positive, if I lern
> enough, is possible I can put my ideas in order and, who knows, maybe I can
> invite the buildings owner to participate.
>
> I'll be waiting for your comments..
> Thanks in advance...
>


Give some consideration to other issues besides the technical ones.
Since you are the ISP people will expect you to do everything for them
especially since you are providing service for free. You will also want
to consider what you will do to address p2p users and trojans that will
saturate your network and what about copyright violations or illegal
activity such as child porn?
 
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