NetStumbler vs. Kismet

I recently started using NetStumbler with an Orinoco card and external
antenna while installing wireless networks at residential customer sites.
One of the things I'm doing is trying to determine if any of the neighbors
have wireless networks, and if so, which channels they are operating on.
Since I'm really unfamiliar with installing or operating Linux, I'm trying
to determine if Kismet will perform better in a residential setting.

I understand that NetStumbler "actively" searches for wireless networks,
whereas Kismet "passively" listens for them. A thread I looked at (in this
group) from early this year indicates that Kismet can only find the SSID of
a network (or maybe the network itself?) when a client associates with an
AP. With a residential network having 4-5 (or less) clients, association
requests will be few and far between. Would Kismet really be of benefit in
this situation?

>I recently started using NetStumbler with an Orinoco card and external
>antenna while installing wireless networks at residential customer sites.
>One of the things I'm doing is trying to determine if any of the neighbors
>have wireless networks, and if so, which channels they are operating on.
>Since I'm really unfamiliar with installing or operating Linux, I'm trying
>to determine if Kismet will perform better in a residential setting.
>
>I understand that NetStumbler "actively" searches for wireless networks,
>whereas Kismet "passively" listens for them. A thread I looked at (in this
>group) from early this year indicates that Kismet can only find the SSID of
>a network (or maybe the network itself?) when a client associates with an
>AP. With a residential network having 4-5 (or less) clients, association
>requests will be few and far between. Would Kismet really be of benefit in
>this situation?

Kismet is useful for locating ANY wireless setup, whether they have SSID on or
off makes no odds.

Where as netstumbler needs to talk to the AP's to get their SSID, but that's all
you see in netstumbler (assuming the AP allows you to do this), so a lot of
networks you come into range with just won't show up in netstumbler.

Airopeek NX is similar to Kismet (but for windows), though it doesn't have the
map options. It does display and log every packet it see's - just as kismet can
do, and it does give you a signal strength reading (as does netstumbler).

But kismet is free - if you can get it running.

Clive

Netstumbler will work nearly as good as Kismet with right hardware.
The newer proxim 802.11 a/b/g gold card will detect even access points
with the SSID broadcast turned off.

This was a big shock to me as our corporate access points are all
Cisco and it had no trouble detecting them even with the SSID turned
off.


"Michael Quinlan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<t6fTa.81297$(E-Mail Removed) .net>...
> I recently started using NetStumbler with an Orinoco card and external
> antenna while installing wireless networks at residential customer sites.
> One of the things I'm doing is trying to determine if any of the neighbors
> have wireless networks, and if so, which channels they are operating on.
> Since I'm really unfamiliar with installing or operating Linux, I'm trying
> to determine if Kismet will perform better in a residential setting.
>
> I understand that NetStumbler "actively" searches for wireless networks,
> whereas Kismet "passively" listens for them. A thread I looked at (in this
> group) from early this year indicates that Kismet can only find the SSID of
> a network (or maybe the network itself?) when a client associates with an
> AP. With a residential network having 4-5 (or less) clients, association
> requests will be few and far between. Would Kismet really be of benefit in
> this situation?

"K Bloch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> Netstumbler will work nearly as good as Kismet with right hardware.
> The newer proxim 802.11 a/b/g gold card will detect even access points
> with the SSID broadcast turned off.
>
> This was a big shock to me as our corporate access points are all
> Cisco and it had no trouble detecting them even with the SSID turned
> off.

I haven't used Netstumbler (I wish I had the right hardware!) or Kismet, but
detecting APs without SSID doesn't seem to be a big trick. The Boingo
software seems to do it easily with both my WPC11 v4 and my work laptop's
built-in Prism 2.5 card.

Bob

"K Bloch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> Netstumbler will work nearly as good as Kismet with right hardware.
> The newer proxim 802.11 a/b/g gold card will detect even access points
> with the SSID broadcast turned off.
>
> This was a big shock to me as our corporate access points are all
> Cisco and it had no trouble detecting them even with the SSID turned
> off.

You're saying that Netstumbler is detecting access points with SSID
broadcast turned off? I can see how a specific hardware/driver combination
would make this possible (or impossible) with the right "sniffer", but I
didn't think Netstumbler was designed to work that way.

Netstumbler gives you different results from the same physical location
depending on what hardware it's using?

Michael Quinlan wrote:
> "K Bloch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
>> Netstumbler will work nearly as good as Kismet with right hardware.
>> The newer proxim 802.11 a/b/g gold card will detect even access
>> points with the SSID broadcast turned off.
>>
>> This was a big shock to me as our corporate access points are all
>> Cisco and it had no trouble detecting them even with the SSID turned
>> off.
>
> You're saying that Netstumbler is detecting access points with SSID
> broadcast turned off? I can see how a specific hardware/driver
> combination would make this possible (or impossible) with the right
> "sniffer", but I didn't think Netstumbler was designed to work that
> way.
>
> Netstumbler gives you different results from the same physical
> location depending on what hardware it's using?

What do you mean - I dont understand.

Is it that the equipment varies in reception quality so that you get
different results - I know the Orinocco Gold card I have is very sensitive.

What I was saying is that different hardware produces different
results. The Proxim/orinoco ABG card firmware/software combination
will show access points even with the broadcast ssid turned off.

The reason is that this card goes into a promiscous mode differently
then some other cards. Just as the Linux program Kismet can provide
different information then netstumbler can.

Also remember that turning off broadcast ssid does not stop an access
points identity from being transmitted. It stops a client from
connecting with a broadcast ssid.


"Michael Quinlan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<NLlWa.11537$(E-Mail Removed). net>...
> "Keith Roberts" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:bg9eg4$gmu$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Michael Quinlan wrote:
> > > "K Bloch" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > > news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> > >> Netstumbler will work nearly as good as Kismet with right hardware.
> > >> The newer proxim 802.11 a/b/g gold card will detect even access
> > >> points with the SSID broadcast turned off.
> > >>
> > >> This was a big shock to me as our corporate access points are all
> > >> Cisco and it had no trouble detecting them even with the SSID turned
> > >> off.
> > >
> > > You're saying that Netstumbler is detecting access points with SSID
> > > broadcast turned off? I can see how a specific hardware/driver
> > > combination would make this possible (or impossible) with the right
> > > "sniffer", but I didn't think Netstumbler was designed to work that
> > > way.
> > >
> > > Netstumbler gives you different results from the same physical
> > > location depending on what hardware it's using?
> >
> > What do you mean - I dont understand.
> >
> > Is it that the equipment varies in reception quality so that you get
> > different results - I know the Orinocco Gold card I have is very
> sensitive.
>
> I get a different range (leading to different results) with various cards
> too. What I was referring to was the claim that using Netstumbler with an
> Orinoco a/b/g card allows you to "see" APs that have "broadcast SSID"
> disabled. I didn't think Netstumbler was designed to work this way at all.