Need some LOS WiFi help w/ 802.11

Ok here is the situation I'm in. I have a friend about 1/2 mile away and
for two months I've been trying to share my internet connection with him so
he doesn't need to use crap MSN anymore. However the problem is that the
connection on his side drops out quite frequently. I have some ideas as to
why this is, but I need some input. Below is how the network is set up.

My house: 9dbi omni with 5 feet rj-8
connected to a DI-614 rev a
equipment is mounted up about 8 feet from the top of my roof
so its pretty high up.

His house: 24dbi mesh antenna with 1 foot rj8
connected to DWL-810 wireless-ethernet bridge
equipment mounted to a tripod on 8 foot mast.

When the antenna is pointed towards my house, the best signal quality we can
get is about 30%. That isn't too bad but it drops too frequently to be
really usable. Occasionally it works, other times there is too much packet
loss.

Now the di-614 on my side only transmits at 17dbm or about 50mw. If I used
better equipment for my base station with probably a 200mw atheros pc card,
would that reduce the random signal drops? Since the di-614 ap is old, I've
noticed it uses a pc card rather than mini pci, could I just replace this
card with a 200mw card instead? Or are there any firmware hacks to increase
the signal strength up to what I need?

The whole point of my little experiment is to do this all on off the shelf
hardware to reduce costs, so I can't really go out and buy an expensive
prebuilt base station for $600.

Thank You

I suppose your friends mesh antenna is directionnal and I guess that if
u replaced your omni with a patch or mesh antenna it would help sending
the max signal to your friends direction.

I use a patch antenna away from another patch (reflected signal).
Distance ~half a kilometer in urban area without line of site. Works
well with bandwidth ~2Mbs.

Mark

--
Interested in Mobile Mesh ? Check out :
http://mark.cabiling.free.fr/mobilemesh/

spammie spam spam wrote:

> Ok here is the situation I'm in. I have a friend about 1/2 mile away and
> for two months I've been trying to share my internet connection with him so
> he doesn't need to use crap MSN anymore. However the problem is that the
> connection on his side drops out quite frequently. I have some ideas as to
> why this is, but I need some input. Below is how the network is set up.
>
> My house: 9dbi omni with 5 feet rj-8
> connected to a DI-614 rev a
> equipment is mounted up about 8 feet from the top of my roof
> so its pretty high up.
>
> His house: 24dbi mesh antenna with 1 foot rj8
> connected to DWL-810 wireless-ethernet bridge
> equipment mounted to a tripod on 8 foot mast.
>
> When the antenna is pointed towards my house, the best signal quality we can
> get is about 30%. That isn't too bad but it drops too frequently to be
> really usable. Occasionally it works, other times there is too much packet
> loss.
>
> Now the di-614 on my side only transmits at 17dbm or about 50mw. If I used
> better equipment for my base station with probably a 200mw atheros pc card,
> would that reduce the random signal drops? Since the di-614 ap is old, I've
> noticed it uses a pc card rather than mini pci, could I just replace this
> card with a 200mw card instead? Or are there any firmware hacks to increase
> the signal strength up to what I need?
>
> The whole point of my little experiment is to do this all on off the shelf
> hardware to reduce costs, so I can't really go out and buy an expensive
> prebuilt base station for $600.
>
> Thank You
>
>

If you can come across a mmmds wireless cable dish that would be great!
Typically they had 24 dbi parabolic dish antennas.. here is a link.. I dont
know if it is up right now, but it worked a couple of weeks ago
http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/page04.html
If that is not up here is a page which sells these antennas and Senao Long
Range 200mw wireless bridges.
http://www.aerialix.com/
I bought a Senao AP3 from them and put a pigtail on it and an 8dbi omni
antenna and it works great!

Sounds like you should get 2 CB3's and some parabolic antennas, The 200mw
radios are a must!

You can get the Wireless Cable Tv dishes for free if you can find some one
with one on their house and if they are nice enough to give it to you..

Good Luck

- Mike

"spammie spam spam" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Ok here is the situation I'm in. I have a friend about 1/2 mile away and
> for two months I've been trying to share my internet connection with him
so
> he doesn't need to use crap MSN anymore. However the problem is that the
> connection on his side drops out quite frequently. I have some ideas as
to
> why this is, but I need some input. Below is how the network is set up.
>
> My house: 9dbi omni with 5 feet rj-8
> connected to a DI-614 rev a
> equipment is mounted up about 8 feet from the top of my
roof
> so its pretty high up.
>
> His house: 24dbi mesh antenna with 1 foot rj8
> connected to DWL-810 wireless-ethernet bridge
> equipment mounted to a tripod on 8 foot mast.
>
> When the antenna is pointed towards my house, the best signal quality we
can
> get is about 30%. That isn't too bad but it drops too frequently to be
> really usable. Occasionally it works, other times there is too much
packet
> loss.
>
> Now the di-614 on my side only transmits at 17dbm or about 50mw. If I
used
> better equipment for my base station with probably a 200mw atheros pc
card,
> would that reduce the random signal drops? Since the di-614 ap is old,
I've
> noticed it uses a pc card rather than mini pci, could I just replace this
> card with a 200mw card instead? Or are there any firmware hacks to
increase
> the signal strength up to what I need?
>
> The whole point of my little experiment is to do this all on off the shelf
> hardware to reduce costs, so I can't really go out and buy an expensive
> prebuilt base station for $600.
>
> Thank You
>
>


---
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I do have a spare patch antenna that is 14 dbi. I'm going to do some roof
climbing tomorrow and test that out. If it works, great. but I really need
to use that omni so I can possibly set up other people onto the network. So
I still need to look into a 200mw card set up.

I looked at my AP stats and I can hear him just fine because the receive
packets is over twice what the tx is. I'm guessing that the equipment on
his side can't quite hear my 50mw going through that 9dbi omni.

If anyone else has suggestions please post them or email me at
(E-Mail Removed)

Thanks


"Mark Cabiling" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:40a7e73a$0$19009$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I suppose your friends mesh antenna is directionnal and I guess that if
> u replaced your omni with a patch or mesh antenna it would help sending
> the max signal to your friends direction.
>
> I use a patch antenna away from another patch (reflected signal).
> Distance ~half a kilometer in urban area without line of site. Works
> well with bandwidth ~2Mbs.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Interested in Mobile Mesh ? Check out :
> http://mark.cabiling.free.fr/mobilemesh/
>
> spammie spam spam wrote:
>
> > Ok here is the situation I'm in. I have a friend about 1/2 mile away
and
> > for two months I've been trying to share my internet connection with him
so
> > he doesn't need to use crap MSN anymore. However the problem is that
the
> > connection on his side drops out quite frequently. I have some ideas as
to
> > why this is, but I need some input. Below is how the network is set up.
> >
> > My house: 9dbi omni with 5 feet rj-8
> > connected to a DI-614 rev a
> > equipment is mounted up about 8 feet from the top of my
roof
> > so its pretty high up.
> >
> > His house: 24dbi mesh antenna with 1 foot rj8
> > connected to DWL-810 wireless-ethernet bridge
> > equipment mounted to a tripod on 8 foot mast.
> >
> > When the antenna is pointed towards my house, the best signal quality we
can
> > get is about 30%. That isn't too bad but it drops too frequently to be
> > really usable. Occasionally it works, other times there is too much
packet
> > loss.
> >
> > Now the di-614 on my side only transmits at 17dbm or about 50mw. If I
used
> > better equipment for my base station with probably a 200mw atheros pc
card,
> > would that reduce the random signal drops? Since the di-614 ap is old,
I've
> > noticed it uses a pc card rather than mini pci, could I just replace
this
> > card with a 200mw card instead? Or are there any firmware hacks to
increase
> > the signal strength up to what I need?
> >
> > The whole point of my little experiment is to do this all on off the
shelf
> > hardware to reduce costs, so I can't really go out and buy an expensive
> > prebuilt base station for $600.
> >
> > Thank You
> >
> >
>

On Sun, 16 May 2004 14:05:59 -0700, spammie spam spam wrote:

> Ok here is the situation I'm in. I have a friend about 1/2 mile away and
> for two months I've been trying to share my internet connection with him so
> he doesn't need to use crap MSN anymore. However the problem is that the
> connection on his side drops out quite frequently. I have some ideas as to
> why this is, but I need some input. Below is how the network is set up.
>
> My house: 9dbi omni with 5 feet rj-8
> connected to a DI-614 rev a
> equipment is mounted up about 8 feet from the top of my roof
> so its pretty high up.

This is OK, except for the RG8.......even though it's only 5 feet, you
have quite a loss in that section.

> His house: 24dbi mesh antenna with 1 foot rj8
> connected to DWL-810 wireless-ethernet bridge
> equipment mounted to a tripod on 8 foot mast.

OK at that end.
>
> When the antenna is pointed towards my house, the best signal quality we can
> get is about 30%. That isn't too bad but it drops too frequently to be
> really usable. Occasionally it works, other times there is too much packet
> loss.

Here's where it begins to get tricky....What is 30%? Thirty percent of
WHAT? Do you have diagnostics, (hardware or software) which let you
measure your levels in dbm ? Can you measure the noise values? Are you
then able to display or calculate your total Signal to Noise Ratio?

> Now the di-614 on my side only transmits at 17dbm or about 50mw. If I used
> better equipment for my base station with probably a 200mw atheros pc card,
> would that reduce the random signal drops? Since the di-614 ap is old, I've
> noticed it uses a pc card rather than mini pci, could I just replace this
> card with a 200mw card instead? Or are there any firmware hacks to increase
> the signal strength up to what I need?

What I see as part of your problem is that currently, you simply don't
know whether the issue is primarily an insufficiency of signal, or whether
a major part of the issue is the reception of "noise" which drowns out the
sufficient signal.

The 24dbi simi-parabolic is sufficient on his end, and if noise reception
is a factor for him, the extreme directionality of the antenna is quite a
"plus" for the rejection of noise, unless the noise emmanates from the
direction of your abode.

> The whole point of my little experiment is to do this all on off the shelf
> hardware to reduce costs, so I tcan't really go out and buy an expensive
> prebuilt base station for $600.
>
> Thank You

What I see as the *main* shortcomming in this total setup, is the use of
the "omni" antenna at your end. Omnis are just fine, as long as you have
sufficient driving power. At an average transmit power level of between
20 and 50 milliwatts, you'll NEVER have enough power to decently drive an
omni. Therefore, I submit that your immediate solution is an amplifier at
your end. I would opt for the 1WATT amplifier which is legally purchasable
in US. Something like one of these:
http://www.wirelessinteractive.com/WIPA241W.html

I use one of these exact models and swear by its performance. However, it
is necessary to ensure that you don't have powerful noise sources close to
your home, because this amplifier will pick up and amplify NOISE, as well
as usable signals, and you won't see much performance benefit if it gets
swamped with noise.

When you factor in all other hardware you may purchase, and the time and
effort involved attempting to make your connections work, then the
purchase price of ~$225,00 for the amplifier is quite a bargain.

Attempt to locate and install diagnostic software which will permit you to
determine if noise is affecting your connections. It does in so many
areas which are residential and commercial in nature.

A half mile is a piece of cake......remember that WiFi records of ~ 100
miles have been set, and equipment like the 24dbi parabolic ensure that
reception at the other end is no problem.

Post again if you have further issues!

vg

Thank you for your input, as you guessed I don't have any testing equipment
to check the snr.

The 30% I was referring to is the software signal strength indicator built
into the DWL-810. . .not very scientific nor accurate probably. However, I
don't think the problem is because of other 802.11 networks in the area.
Currently I'm using chan 11 and I haven't found another AP in the
neighborhood that uses that channel. If I had a spectrum analyzer I
probably wouldn't be worried about cost anyways I did do a little
wardriving with my laptop and netstumbler around my neighborhood before the
install to look for conflicting channels. However my wifi pc card doesn't
have an external antenna jack so I can't use a pigtail on it.

Although I don't have sophisticated equipment, I do know that my AP
definitely hears the signal coming from the other side. Reasoning behind
this is if I look in the Stats I will see wireless frames coming in. . .but
its almost like he can't quite hear my AP so it drops the connection. I am
going to experiment with a 14dbi patch panel tomorrow and use that rather
than the omni. If it works I believe it will support your theory of my AP
not being powerful enough to drive the omni.

But now that you are talking about 1 watt amps, I might try this route but I
am concerned about the legalities of the amp plus my antenna configuration,
especially at my friends house. Additionally if I do go with an amp should
I eliminate the five foot rg8 and go with some lmr? I might want to move
the wireless equipment into a enclosure near ground level instead of being
up on the mast so I probably will move to lmr eventually.


"Valentín Guillén" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed). ..
> On Sun, 16 May 2004 14:05:59 -0700, spammie spam spam wrote:
>
<snipped>

Josh Auger wrote:
> Thank you for your input, as you guessed I don't have any testing equipment
> to check the snr.
>
> The 30% I was referring to is the software signal strength indicator built
> into the DWL-810. . .not very scientific nor accurate probably. However, I
> don't think the problem is because of other 802.11 networks in the area.
> Currently I'm using chan 11 and I haven't found another AP in the
> neighborhood that uses that channel. If I had a spectrum analyzer I
> probably wouldn't be worried about cost anyways I did do a little
> wardriving with my laptop and netstumbler around my neighborhood before the
> install to look for conflicting channels. However my wifi pc card doesn't
> have an external antenna jack so I can't use a pigtail on it.
>
> Although I don't have sophisticated equipment, I do know that my AP
> definitely hears the signal coming from the other side. Reasoning behind
> this is if I look in the Stats I will see wireless frames coming in. . .but
> its almost like he can't quite hear my AP so it drops the connection. I am
> going to experiment with a 14dbi patch panel tomorrow and use that rather
> than the omni. If it works I believe it will support your theory of my AP
> not being powerful enough to drive the omni.
>
> But now that you are talking about 1 watt amps, I might try this route but I
> am concerned about the legalities of the amp plus my antenna configuration,
> especially at my friends house. Additionally if I do go with an amp should
> I eliminate the five foot rg8 and go with some lmr? I might want to move
> the wireless equipment into a enclosure near ground level instead of being
> up on the mast so I probably will move to lmr eventually.

A half-mile and using a 24dbi grid antenna at one end already? Thinking
of adding an amp? Holy crap, you must live in a giant MRI machine for
there to be that much interference.

Keep the wireless gear as near to the antenna as possible, not further
away. And I use LMR-400 for 2' to 3' pigtails. Negligable loss.

As posted recently, I'm currently running on a 9dbi panel antenna
associating with an AP on a 8dbi omni at about a quarter mile away. This
same 9dbi panel will also associate with an identical AP nearly two
miles away on a 12dbi sector. Either way, excellent signal strength and
link quality. No amps and not running at maximum FCC power levels.

LOL no not a giant MRI machine, just suburbia with trees that sway into the
fresnel. However you are running two directional antennas where I have one
directional and one omni. If there is some sort of interference that is
affecting my tx from my omni it would exhibit this sort of behavior since
the signal isn't directional. Additionally, I choose the omni for the
purpose of being a point to multipoint set up. Although my friend is the
first wireless client on my network, there will be others. So Running and
amp really is feasible because it would greatly extend the service
territory.



>
> A half-mile and using a 24dbi grid antenna at one end already? Thinking
> of adding an amp? Holy crap, you must live in a giant MRI machine for
> there to be that much interference.
>
> Keep the wireless gear as near to the antenna as possible, not further
> away. And I use LMR-400 for 2' to 3' pigtails. Negligable loss.
>
> As posted recently, I'm currently running on a 9dbi panel antenna
> associating with an AP on a 8dbi omni at about a quarter mile away. This
> same 9dbi panel will also associate with an identical AP nearly two
> miles away on a 12dbi sector. Either way, excellent signal strength and
> link quality. No amps and not running at maximum FCC power levels.
>

Notice that I said I am connecting to an 8dbi *omni* on the AP.

Josh Auger wrote:

> LOL no not a giant MRI machine, just suburbia with trees that sway into the
> fresnel. However you are running two directional antennas where I have one
> directional and one omni.

No, my 9dbi patch is communicating with an omni on the AP at a quarter
mile. But this area is relatively quiet on the 2.4GHz range compared to
most urban/suburban areas.

> If there is some sort of interference that is
> affecting my tx from my omni it would exhibit this sort of behavior since
> the signal isn't directional. Additionally, I choose the omni for the
> purpose of being a point to multipoint set up. Although my friend is the
> first wireless client on my network, there will be others. So Running and
> amp really is feasible because it would greatly extend the service
> territory.
>
>
>
>
>>A half-mile and using a 24dbi grid antenna at one end already? Thinking
>>of adding an amp? Holy crap, you must live in a giant MRI machine for
>>there to be that much interference.
>>
>>Keep the wireless gear as near to the antenna as possible, not further
>>away. And I use LMR-400 for 2' to 3' pigtails. Negligable loss.
>>
>>As posted recently, I'm currently running on a 9dbi panel antenna
>>associating with an AP on a 8dbi omni at about a quarter mile away. This
>>same 9dbi panel will also associate with an identical AP nearly two
>>miles away on a 12dbi sector. Either way, excellent signal strength and
>>link quality. No amps and not running at maximum FCC power levels.

Ahh yes, indeed you did. But what kind of radios are you using? 8dbi with
200mw will be much more powerful than a 9dbi omni with 50mw.

You setup assuming 200mw radio + 8dbi omni + assuming 5 feet lmr 400 =
29.7db
Mine with 50mw + 9dbi omni + my RG8 = 23.8db

Additionally what is your terrain like? Flat and treeless? That would be
optimal, but unfortunately I live in the city where the noise floor is
certainly higher and there are trees in the area.

"Rôgêr" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:j-mdnXt23IFttjTdRVn-(E-Mail Removed)...
> Notice that I said I am connecting to an 8dbi *omni* on the AP.
>
> Josh Auger wrote:
>
> > LOL no not a giant MRI machine, just suburbia with trees that sway into
the
> > fresnel. However you are running two directional antennas where I have
one
> > directional and one omni.
>
> No, my 9dbi patch is communicating with an omni on the AP at a quarter
> mile. But this area is relatively quiet on the 2.4GHz range compared to
> most urban/suburban areas.
>
> > If there is some sort of interference that is
> > affecting my tx from my omni it would exhibit this sort of behavior
since
> > the signal isn't directional. Additionally, I choose the omni for the
> > purpose of being a point to multipoint set up. Although my friend is
the
> > first wireless client on my network, there will be others. So Running
and
> > amp really is feasible because it would greatly extend the service
> > territory.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>A half-mile and using a 24dbi grid antenna at one end already? Thinking
> >>of adding an amp? Holy crap, you must live in a giant MRI machine for
> >>there to be that much interference.
> >>
> >>Keep the wireless gear as near to the antenna as possible, not further
> >>away. And I use LMR-400 for 2' to 3' pigtails. Negligable loss.
> >>
> >>As posted recently, I'm currently running on a 9dbi panel antenna
> >>associating with an AP on a 8dbi omni at about a quarter mile away. This
> >>same 9dbi panel will also associate with an identical AP nearly two
> >>miles away on a 12dbi sector. Either way, excellent signal strength and
> >>link quality. No amps and not running at maximum FCC power levels.
>