Need HELP setting up Wifi for small Town!!

Hello all! I thank anyone that can help me in advance for your time and
effort!

Now then, I live in a small trailer park by the ocean in southern
Florida. The size of the town is approximatly 45 acres, and it is shaped
in a large block. I have the support of the entire community, and will
be able to place access points or dishes anywhere to get this up and
running. I have never setup a network of this size, but I do have a lot
of experience in residential networking.

I am posting here to get some of your ideas on what type of equipment I
should use and placement. I was figuring on subscribing to a T1 line at
a central location and then using dishes to point the signal to various
parts of the park. As I understand it, the beam of the dishes is quite
narrow, so I would then use access points to spread the signal around,
but I really have no idea if this will even work.

Please Help!!
Thank you,

Jason


------------------------------------------------------------------------
View this thread: http://www.wirelessforums.org/showthread.php?t=38700
http://www.wirelessforums.org

On Feb 13, 1:39*pm, JasonB <JasonB.34q...@no-mx.wirelessforums.org>
wrote:
> Hello all! I thank anyone that can help me in advance for your time and
> effort!
>
> Now then, I live in a small trailer park by the ocean in southern
> Florida. The size of the town is approximatly 45 acres, and it is shaped
> in a large block. I have the support of the entire community, and will
> be able to place access points or dishes anywhere to get this up and
> running. I have never setup a network of this size, but I do have a lot
> of experience in residential networking.
>
> I am posting here to get some of your ideas on what type of equipment I
> should use and placement. I was figuring on subscribing to a T1 line at
> a central location and then using dishes to point the signal to various
> parts of the park. As I understand it, the beam of the dishes is quite
> narrow, so I would then use access points to spread the signal around,
> but I really have no idea if this will even work.
>
> Please Help!!
> Thank you,
>
> Jason
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> View this thread:http://www.wirelessforums.org/showth...lessforums.org

Jason,

I would suggest you investigate Meraki (www.meraki.com). Their
equipment is inexpensive and easy to set up.

Scott

JasonB <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>I am posting here to get some of your ideas on what type of equipment I
>should use and placement.

Maybe a little light reading would be helpful before you ask us to
engineer your municipal wireless network. You may want to talk to
other towns that have already done this (hopefully successfully):
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_broadband>
<http://www.muniwireless.com> <-----this one!!
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network>
<http://www.news.com/Municipal-broadband-and-wireless-projects-map/2009-1034_3-5690287.html>
<http://www.part-15.org/maps/WISPLocate.asp?ID=FL>
<http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/isp-wireless/>

Also, the number of users per T1 backhaul is easy to calculate. It
can handle:
100 light web and email users
10 business users
1 file sharing user

Although the selection of equipment is important, it's really a very
small part of the puzzle and expenses. The one's that usually cause
problems are the cost of the backhaul, bandwidth management,
administration, abuse management, vandalism, equipment failure,
maintenance, monitoring, user support, and local politics (zoning,
permits, and kickbacks to the city). Siteing (location) is also a
problem as many building owners consider their rooftops as a profit
center.

Assuming you can get it all together and working, capacity limitations
rapidly become a serious problem. Wi-Fi is a shared medium that
rapidly saturates as the number of users in a geographic area
increases. Almost anything can be made to work with a small number of
users. However, larger systems require very different topologies. For
example, for a small number of users, in a large geographic area, it
would be possible to server everyone with a single high location on
top of the nearest mountain or tall building. However, as the number
of users increases, they will rapidly saturate the capacity of the
single access point and start to interfere with each other. That
means more access points, but at street level locations, each with
expensive backhauls, or messy mesh networks.

Gotta run...
--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:39:30 -0500, JasonB
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

a few thoughts:
>
>Hello all! I thank anyone that can help me in advance for your time and
>effort!
>
>Now then, I live in a small trailer park by the ocean in southern
>Florida.

Each residence is a Faraday cage. No radio signal goes in or out
through the metal skin. Most windows will allow some signal in or out
but in Florida most all have metal awnings to protect from direct
sunlight, which also prevents 802.11 quite well.

And lots have awnings (metal) or screen rooms down one side.

So, unless a residence window happens let some rf leak in, true
wireless inside the trailers will require an AP inside each trailer.
Its about the same in a motor home where they want internet access at
the rv campsites.
See the following thread for some info:
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.internet.wireless/browse_thread/thread/bdb159feb1ceba36/c3dbf7ccdf74e235?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=trailer++roof+wif i+OR+802.11#c3dbf7ccdf74e235>
or this (same thread)
<http://tinyurl.com/yql9s6>

Of note is one of Jeffs comments:
"I have a few customers in trailer parks and have a little experience
in making them work. The metal boxes are pure hell as they create
reflections that cause multipath problems. I found that shooting
across the trailer rooftops is a loser. The best results so far was
hanging the radio in a nearby tree, about 4 ft above the roof line.
That was a ethernet client radio, not USB as the cable would have been
too long. I've had to use directional antennas not to get sufficient
gain to talk to a distant access point, but to reduce or eliminate the
reflections caused by bounces from behind the antenna. An omni will
pickup these reflections with equal strength, while a directional
antenna will pickup almost nothing from behind the antenna pattern."

>The size of the town is approximatly 45 acres, and it is shaped
>in a large block. I have the support of the entire community, and will
>be able to place access points or dishes anywhere to get this up and
>running. I have never setup a network of this size, but I do have a lot
>of experience in residential networking.
>

Somewhere between 250-500 trailers? (my WAG)

>I am posting here to get some of your ideas on what type of equipment I
>should use and placement. I was figuring on subscribing to a T1 line at
>a central location and then using dishes to point the signal to various
>parts of the park. As I understand it, the beam of the dishes is quite
>narrow, so I would then use access points to spread the signal around,
>but I really have no idea if this will even work.
>

Perhaps try a single mast mounted AP with a 7.5-8 dBi omni antenna on
a 20' mast.
Installed in a common location (or at your trailer) it would be useful
for some ppl now & you could start testing to see what range you are
getting.

What about using existing telephone or cable lines? If they go back to
a common distribution point then you have the options. Hardwired beats
wireless (almost) every time!!

kc

>Please Help!!
>Thank you,
>
>Jason
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>View this thread: http://www.wirelessforums.org/showthread.php?t=38700
>http://www.wirelessforums.org

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:39:30 -0500, JasonB
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<(E-Mail Removed)>:

>Hello all! I thank anyone that can help me in advance for your time and
>effort!
>
>Now then, I live in a small trailer park by the ocean in southern
>Florida. The size of the town is approximatly 45 acres, and it is shaped
>in a large block. I have the support of the entire community, and will
>be able to place access points or dishes anywhere to get this up and
>running. I have never setup a network of this size, but I do have a lot
>of experience in residential networking.
>
>I am posting here to get some of your ideas on what type of equipment I
>should use and placement. I was figuring on subscribing to a T1 line at
>a central location and then using dishes to point the signal to various
>parts of the park. As I understand it, the beam of the dishes is quite
>narrow, so I would then use access points to spread the signal around,
>but I really have no idea if this will even work.
>
>Please Help!!

Hire professionals, and let them do it. Seriously.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:31:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Gotta run...

I hate days like this. 2 fire drills before lunch, one afterwards,
and now, nothing. Might was well continue...

You don't need wireless as the trailers do not need to move.

If this really is one big 45 acre trailer park, it must have conduit
and underground services to each trailer. Phone and power are
obvious, but if there's coax cable for CATV, you can run internet over
the existing coax using cable modems, or piggy back with dedicated
hardware. See:
<http://www.multilet.com>
<http://www.entropic.com/pages/tech_cLINKBroadbandAccess.html>
<http://www.mocalliance.org/en/index.asp>
Unfortunately, much of this is new technology. Verizon has deployed
MoCA technology on their fiber optic network:
<http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6048162.html>

My guess(tm) is deploying coax or laying fiber will probably have a
substantially higher initial cost as compared to wireless. However,
since you have a non-moving customer base, that is not addicted to
portability and laptops, I see no reason why you must use wireless.
Any of the wired technologies (including DSL) will work to your
non-moving trailers. The real advantage will be after initial
deployment, the operating and maintenance costs will be much less. For
example, what the cost of receiving a few hundred irate support phone
calls because the wireless has gone down thanks to someone firing up a
leaky microwave oven? While you're thinking about that, who is going
to handle the support calls? India? Wired infrastructure (coax,
fiber, copper) is MUCH more reliable than wireless.

Ok, now... lets do the math.

How many trailers fit in 45 acres? How many computahs per trailer? 45
acres is about 2 million square feet. Permanent trailer lots are
about 50 x 120ft = 600 sq ft. So my guess is about 2500 trailers,
leaving space for common areas and roadways. If you guarantee about
300Kbits/sec minimum bandwidth, at 10:1 utilization, that's:
2500 / 10 * 300 kbit/sec = 75Mbits/sec
backhaul bandwidth required. That's probably a bit high, but not
unreasonable considering the number of users. Plan on negotiating a
very expensive contract with your local bulk bandwidth provider, plus
a very expensive fiber connection to the nearest telco central office.

2. How are you going to pay for this? Charge the users, I presume
Flat rate pre month? Metered rate by the megabloat? What are you
going to do about the file sharing bandwidth hogs? I have a sneaky
suspicion that the reason everyone is in favor of this project is that
they're assuming the wireless is free.

Gotta run....(again).

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

JasonB wrote:
> I have the support of the entire community

Does that mean they will be willing to pay $50 or so a month
or that they will let you put up a tower? I suspect they are
anticipating free internet access.

<snip>
>Ok, now... lets do the math.
>
>How many trailers fit in 45 acres? How many computahs per trailer? 45
>acres is about 2 million square feet. Permanent trailer lots are
>about 50 x 120ft = 600 sq ft.

or 6000 sq ft

& lets not forget about the 125mph winds to be expected 1-3x per year.

>So my guess is about 2500 trailers,
>leaving space for common areas and roadways. If you guarantee about
>300Kbits/sec minimum bandwidth, at 10:1 utilization, that's:
> 2500 / 10 * 300 kbit/sec = 75Mbits/sec
>backhaul bandwidth required. That's probably a bit high, but not
>unreasonable considering the number of users. Plan on negotiating a
>very expensive contract with your local bulk bandwidth provider, plus
>a very expensive fiber connection to the nearest telco central office.
>
>2. How are you going to pay for this? Charge the users, I presume
>Flat rate pre month? Metered rate by the megabloat? What are you
>going to do about the file sharing bandwidth hogs? I have a sneaky
>suspicion that the reason everyone is in favor of this project is that
>they're assuming the wireless is free.
>
>Gotta run....(again).

Kim Clay <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

><snip>
>>Ok, now... lets do the math.
>>
>>How many trailers fit in 45 acres? How many computahs per trailer? 45
>>acres is about 2 million square feet. Permanent trailer lots are
>>about 50 x 120ft = 600 sq ft.
>
>or 6000 sq ft

Oops. I just hate it when I screw up like that. Ok, that's about 300
trailers in 45 acres.

>& lets not forget about the 125mph winds to be expected 1-3x per year.

>>So my guess is about 2500 trailers,
>>leaving space for common areas and roadways. If you guarantee about
>>300Kbits/sec minimum bandwidth, at 10:1 utilization, that's:
>> 2500 / 10 * 300 kbit/sec = 75Mbits/sec
>>backhaul bandwidth required.

Argh. 300 trailers with 10:1 utilization is:
300 /10 * 300 kbits/sec = 9 Mbits/sec
which a bit more reasonable. However, it's still more than 6 times
the bandwidth of a T1.

>>That's probably a bit high, but not
>>unreasonable considering the number of users. Plan on negotiating a
>>very expensive contract with your local bulk bandwidth provider, plus
>>a very expensive fiber connection to the nearest telco central office.
>>
>>2. How are you going to pay for this? Charge the users, I presume
>>Flat rate pre month? Metered rate by the megabloat? What are you
>>going to do about the file sharing bandwidth hogs? I have a sneaky
>>suspicion that the reason everyone is in favor of this project is that
>>they're assuming the wireless is free.
>>
>>Gotta run....(again).

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558