N vs G Range with G devices

Thanks in advance for any help.

I'm currently using an 802.11g wireless access point. The devices in
my house that connect to it are all 802.11g. I am having some signal
issues in parts of the house.

I know I won't get faster speeds, but is there any advantage to using
an 802.11n device as the access point in terms of range, if all the
devices are 802.11g?

Thanks again

No, I don't think an N router operating in G mode will offer any
advantage. In fact, may reduce your current options if it doesn't
have removable antennas.

Instead, why don't you go ahead and give us a description of your
router model and the various devices that connect to it. Describe your
house layout and where the problems are.

There is almost certainly a good solution using G, perhaps with a
higher gain antenna (or reflector) perhaps adding a second AP
connected by cable or powerline networking to your existing router.

Steve

Thanks very much for the help.

I have an older, brick, plaster-walled house. There are two stories
and a finished basement. I have a Linksys BEFSR81 router in a room on
the second floor into which the Comcast cable comes and my main
desktop PC lives. This room is wired to 2 bedrooms on the second
floor, one room on the first floor, and the main living area in the
basement. In one of the bedrooms on the second floor, I have a Linksys
WAP54G with the 7dB antennae. I put the WAP in a bedroom because the
room with the cable has a ton of electronics. The room on the first
floor has not been good for the WAP because it's built on a concrete
slab and really is apart from the rest of the house. That room has the
family computer, wired to the BEFSR81.

I have 2 daughters in college who use their laptops when they are home
for breaks and the summer. They work in a room on the first floor that
gets good, but not great, signal. I'd like to get better signal in
that room.

On the first floor, just below the WAP, I have a TiVo and a music
device (SquuezeBox) that essentially plays music from the internet. I
don't use it to connect to a music server in the house. I also have an
iPod Touch and a cellphone with wifi that I like to roam with. We have
an outside porch and I get no signal there. In addition to better
signal for the kids' laptops, I'd love to be able to get signal on the
porch.

I have tried the Linksys range expander. It worked well for signal to
the laptops (but not the outside porch), but kept disconnecting from
the WAP. I kept having to reset it.

Thanks very much for any suggestions.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:05:52 -0700 (PDT), seaweedsl
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>No, I don't think an N router operating in G mode will offer any
>advantage. In fact, may reduce your current options if it doesn't
>have removable antennas.
>
> Instead, why don't you go ahead and give us a description of your
>router model and the various devices that connect to it. Describe your
>house layout and where the problems are.
>
>There is almost certainly a good solution using G, perhaps with a
>higher gain antenna (or reflector) perhaps adding a second AP
>connected by cable or powerline networking to your existing router.
>
>Steve

> I know I won't get faster speeds, but is there any advantage to using
> an 802.11n device as the access point in terms of range, if all the
> devices are 802.11g?
Definitely not. Indeed, as 802.11n APs has a natural coverage
advantage (due to technology) vendors are building them with an
average output power lower than traditionally found 802.11g AP (not a
rule, but it is for sure a tendency). So replacing your G AP with N AP
will - very likely - reduce your 802.11g devices coverage range.

You are absolutely correct. I tried it, just for kicks. My results
were worse with the N router and I returned to my all-G setup.

Thanks for the response.


On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:49:49 -0700 (PDT), "(E-Mail Removed)"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>> I know I won't get faster speeds, but is there any advantage to using
>> an 802.11n device as the access point in terms of range, if all the
>> devices are 802.11g?
>Definitely not. Indeed, as 802.11n APs has a natural coverage
>advantage (due to technology) vendors are building them with an
>average output power lower than traditionally found 802.11g AP (not a
>rule, but it is for sure a tendency). So replacing your G AP with N AP
>will - very likely - reduce your 802.11g devices coverage range.
>

On Jun 18, 7:25*pm, Bill <opchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks very much for the help.
>
> I have an older, brick, plaster-walled house. There are two stories
> and a finished basement. I have a Linksys BEFSR81 router in a room on
> the second floor into which the Comcast cable comes and my main
> desktop PC lives. This room is wired to 2 bedrooms on the second
> floor, one room on the first floor, and the main living area in the
> basement. In one of the bedrooms on the second floor, I have a Linksys
> WAP54G with the 7dB antennae. I put the WAP in a bedroom because the
> room with the cable has a ton of electronics. The room on the first
> floor has not been good for the WAP because it's built on a concrete
> slab and really is apart from the rest of the house. That room has the
> family computer, wired to the BEFSR81.
>
> I have 2 daughters in college who use their laptops when they are home
> for breaks and the summer. They work in a room on the first floor that
> gets good, but not great, signal. I'd like to get better signal in
> that room.
>
> On the first floor, just below the WAP, I have a TiVo and a music
> device (SquuezeBox) that essentially plays music from the internet. I
> don't use it to connect to a music server in the house. I also have an
> iPod Touch and a cellphone with wifi that I like to roam with. We have
> an outside porch and I get no signal there. In addition to better
> signal for the kids' laptops, I'd love to be able to get signal on the
> porch.
>
> I have tried the Linksys range expander. It worked well for signal to
> the laptops (but not the outside porch), but kept disconnecting from
> the WAP. I kept having to reset it.

OK. That's great that you have ethernet everywhere already. I'm not
totally clear on the setup, but close enough, I think, to offer
suggestions and comments:

First, consider the 7dbi omni antenna on your existing WAP. It
radiates in a disc for 360 around the antenna. Because it's 7 dbi,
it's actually a narrower disc than the doughnut shape of a stock 2dbi
omni.
So, ff you have it pointed up (normal) on the second floor,then
anything above or below it is in the dead zone. Or weak zone.
Tilting it down so that the side of it points to your most distant
area (porch) may help. Putting a reflector on it should help even
more:

http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/ant2.html
http://www.freeantennas.com/projects...te2/index.html

Try it with your old stock antenna as well as the 7 dbi one to see
which works better with the reflector.

But I wonder if upstairs is where you want the WAP. Is there any
client upstairs that connects wirelessly? If not, more it downstairs
and you can even try a reflector there towards the porch. Anything
in the room with the AP will probably work no matter what you do with
the antenna pointing, so you are looking for improving the most
distant point that needs to connect to the router.

If this doesn't work or you need to keep that WAP upstairs for some
reason or another, add on another inexpensive wireless G Access Point
or router to your ethernet in a strategic location downstairs - closer
to the porch. Because you have brick construction, it's going to have
to be pretty close to the porch to work, but you'll see. Play around a
bit. The reflector may allow you to place it a little further if you
point towards the porch.

Location in the room is important. Higher is often better for distance
to other rooms, as there are less things in the way.

I mentioned getting a wireless router because it can also act as an AP
and has the advantage of acting as a switch and allowing you to
connect 3 more items to the back, thus multiplying one ethernet
cable. The ethernet from your main router connects to one of the LAN
ports, not the WAN on the additional router-as-AP.

To find a decent router, just go to Newegg.com and start with the
cheapest until you find one with good ratings by a lot of people. Or
just get a Linksys since you already are familiar with the interface.
The WRT54GL (L important) has several advantages over the plain
WRT54G, so get that if you are willing to pay $60. http://tinyurl.com/3q8e3u

Come back with setup questions or whatever else here.

Steve

Steve,

Thank you very, very much for the detailed information.

I do have the 7db omni antennae on the WAP54G. In addition, I have the
do-it-yourself "WindSurfer" parabolic reflectors on the antennae. I
have done some very limited testing and am pretty convinced that the
reflectors offer a small, but real, improvement.

The reason the WAP is on the second floor is that the only wired room
on the first floor is the awful (for signal) built-on-a-slab room.
It's just not a good place for the WAP. (The outside porch to which I
want to get signal is just outside that room.)

I have set something up that now gets very good signal to the porch.

I resurrected the Linksys Range Expander and placed it on the first
floor, at the opposite end of the wired-room-with-no-signal. It is
behaving well and getting great signal to the laptops.

In the first floor room next to the porch, I added a Netgear wireless
router configured as a repeater of the Linksys WAP54G. It's giving me
great signal on the porch.

But ... I'm more the "tweak it until it's as good as possible" rather
than "don't fix what ain't broken" kind of guy. And I don't mind
spending a few more dollars.

So ... would I be better off using the WRT54GL in place of both the
WAP54G and the Netgear? Or replace the Netgear with another WAP54G
configured as a repeater (since they'd both then be Linksys)?

I don't need the extra ethernet ports of a router in any location. Is
a router configured as a WAP better than a dedicated WAP? It seems
counter-intuitive to me.

Finally ... it seems the best configuration given the constraints of
my house are ... the WAP in a middle room on the second floor, a
repeater/range expander at one end of the first floor, and a repeater
at the other end of the first floor (in the "dead" room). Which
device(s) do you recommend for the 3 locations? Three WRT54GL's, one
configured as a WAP and the others as repeaters?

Thanks a million.



On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:13:36 -0700 (PDT), seaweedsl
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Jun 18, 7:25*pm, Bill <opchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks very much for the help.
>>
>> I have an older, brick, plaster-walled house. There are two stories
>> and a finished basement. I have a Linksys BEFSR81 router in a room on
>> the second floor into which the Comcast cable comes and my main
>> desktop PC lives. This room is wired to 2 bedrooms on the second
>> floor, one room on the first floor, and the main living area in the
>> basement. In one of the bedrooms on the second floor, I have a Linksys
>> WAP54G with the 7dB antennae. I put the WAP in a bedroom because the
>> room with the cable has a ton of electronics. The room on the first
>> floor has not been good for the WAP because it's built on a concrete
>> slab and really is apart from the rest of the house. That room has the
>> family computer, wired to the BEFSR81.
>>
>> I have 2 daughters in college who use their laptops when they are home
>> for breaks and the summer. They work in a room on the first floor that
>> gets good, but not great, signal. I'd like to get better signal in
>> that room.
>>
>> On the first floor, just below the WAP, I have a TiVo and a music
>> device (SquuezeBox) that essentially plays music from the internet. I
>> don't use it to connect to a music server in the house. I also have an
>> iPod Touch and a cellphone with wifi that I like to roam with. We have
>> an outside porch and I get no signal there. In addition to better
>> signal for the kids' laptops, I'd love to be able to get signal on the
>> porch.
>>
>> I have tried the Linksys range expander. It worked well for signal to
>> the laptops (but not the outside porch), but kept disconnecting from
>> the WAP. I kept having to reset it.
>
>OK. That's great that you have ethernet everywhere already. I'm not
>totally clear on the setup, but close enough, I think, to offer
>suggestions and comments:
>
>First, consider the 7dbi omni antenna on your existing WAP. It
>radiates in a disc for 360 around the antenna. Because it's 7 dbi,
>it's actually a narrower disc than the doughnut shape of a stock 2dbi
>omni.
>So, ff you have it pointed up (normal) on the second floor,then
>anything above or below it is in the dead zone. Or weak zone.
>Tilting it down so that the side of it points to your most distant
>area (porch) may help. Putting a reflector on it should help even
>more:
>
>http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/ant2.html
>http://www.freeantennas.com/projects...te2/index.html
>
>Try it with your old stock antenna as well as the 7 dbi one to see
>which works better with the reflector.
>
>But I wonder if upstairs is where you want the WAP. Is there any
>client upstairs that connects wirelessly? If not, more it downstairs
>and you can even try a reflector there towards the porch. Anything
>in the room with the AP will probably work no matter what you do with
>the antenna pointing, so you are looking for improving the most
>distant point that needs to connect to the router.
>
>If this doesn't work or you need to keep that WAP upstairs for some
>reason or another, add on another inexpensive wireless G Access Point
>or router to your ethernet in a strategic location downstairs - closer
>to the porch. Because you have brick construction, it's going to have
>to be pretty close to the porch to work, but you'll see. Play around a
>bit. The reflector may allow you to place it a little further if you
>point towards the porch.
>
>Location in the room is important. Higher is often better for distance
>to other rooms, as there are less things in the way.
>
>I mentioned getting a wireless router because it can also act as an AP
>and has the advantage of acting as a switch and allowing you to
>connect 3 more items to the back, thus multiplying one ethernet
>cable. The ethernet from your main router connects to one of the LAN
>ports, not the WAN on the additional router-as-AP.
>
>To find a decent router, just go to Newegg.com and start with the
>cheapest until you find one with good ratings by a lot of people. Or
>just get a Linksys since you already are familiar with the interface.
>The WRT54GL (L important) has several advantages over the plain
>WRT54G, so get that if you are willing to pay $60. http://tinyurl.com/3q8e3u
>
>Come back with setup questions or whatever else here.
>
>Steve

On Jun 20, 5:43*pm, Bill <opchi...@gmail.com>
> I have done some very limited testing and am pretty convinced that the
> reflectors offer a small, but real, improvement.

I have seen a real improvement over stock antenna. A 2dbi omni with a
windsurfer works better than a 7 dbi omni on a Linksys I have setup.
When I put the windsurfer on the 7 dbi, it helps a bit too, but the
2dbi is better for the reflector, I think. I only used one antenna
and disconnected the other when using the reflector.
>
> The reason the WAP is on the second floor is that the only wired room
> on the first floor is the awful (for signal) built-on-a-slab room.
> It's just not a good place for the WAP. (The outside porch to which I
> want to get signal is just outside that room.)

The slab is bad because you need the signal to get thru below it? I
don't see how it would hurt if not trying to pass through. For side
to side it should be fine. Only you really understand the layout, but
it seems a waste to have the WAP upstairs. Again, tilting the antenna
side towards intended hot spot helps.
>
> I have set something up that now gets very good signal to the porch.
>
great!

> I resurrected the Linksys Range Expander and placed it on the first
> floor, at the opposite end of the wired-room-with-no-signal. It is
> behaving well and getting great signal to the laptops.

These range expanders have reliability issues as you saw before.
Also, can you get it to do WPA (which you should be using) security?
From experience and advice from experts here, I'd avoid them, but if I
had one, what the heck. It does seem to work.

>
> In the first floor room next to the porch, I added a Netgear wireless
> router configured as a repeater of the Linksys WAP54G. It's giving me
> great signal on the porch.
>
Actually as a repeater, or as a wired AP? Again, wire it if at all
possible. Really.

> But ... I'm more the "tweak it until it's as good as possible" rather
> than "don't fix what ain't broken" kind of guy. And I don't mind
> spending a few more dollars.
>
> So ... would I be better off using the WRT54GL in place of both the
> WAP54G and the Netgear? Or replace the Netgear with another WAP54G
> configured as a repeater (since they'd both then be Linksys)?
>
> I don't need the extra ethernet ports of a router in any location. Is
> a router configured as a WAP better than a dedicated WAP? It seems
> counter-intuitive to me.
>
Not better or worse by nature, just cheaper and more possibilities
when setting things up or expanding. And routers that take
replacement firmware can operate as a router/repeater/ AP/ Wireless
Client. The wireless client mode is particularly useful not only as
a client but with a wireless client feeding an AP, you can make
superior two-radio repeater.

> Finally ... it seems the best configuration given the constraints of
> my house are ... the WAP in a middle room on the second floor, a
> repeater/range expander at one end of the first floor, and a repeater
> at the other end of the first floor (in the "dead" room).

So you have a good working configuration ! Very good.

Again, it's hard to second guess you from here, but IF I was starting
from scratch, I'd probably do it this way:

Router/WAP in both ends of first floor (different channels) connected
to main router by wire. Forget wireless upstairs. Forget simple
repeaters.

For the room without wiring, I'd either run powerline networking
(Netgear XE103 is fast and reliable) from the router to it that room
and then go into the WAP from there, or...

Instead of using powerline you could make up that two radio repeater
using one device in client mode and another as AP connected by a short
ethernet cable to each other. You can optimally position the client
to see the nearest AP and even use a directional on it (reflector or
panel antenna). The AP would probably have just it's stock omni for
best coverage in the local area.

Your Linksys WAP or Netgear router might take DD-WRT and could be the
client bridge side of the "two radio repeater". Check here:
http://tinyurl.com/2a6y96 Find links from there to see all the great
setup advice on their wiki. Ask here for advice on making a repeater
from two wireless devices.

>Which device(s) do you recommend for the 3 locations? Three WRT54GL's, one
> configured as a WAP and the others as repeaters?

Don't particularly recommend Linksys (not bad choice though) and
nothing in simple repeater mode. Again, just talking for fun (you
have it working !), if best range is your priority, then the Buffalo
Whr-HP-G54 is probably the winner for under $100. They are no longer
legally sold in US, but find one on Ebay. Used to be $60, but
scarcity raised the prices. It beats out the Linksys L, and also
takes DD-WRT.

It's cheaper little brother, the Buffalo WHR-G54S is still perhaps
better than the Linksys L and close to the Buffalo HP (high power)
once you install DD-WRT and raise the power output a bit. Buy on Ebay
also.

Besides the Linksys L, the ASUS WL500G line has USB ports, gets great
reviews and takes DD-WRT. Check at Newegg.com

As you can see, I wouldn't buy anything that didn't take DD-WRT. The
Linksys do too, of course.

But, you already have a bunch of gear and you have at least one
solution already. All good.
>
> Thanks a million.
>
Glad to be helpful, I've benefitted a lot here and elsewhere myself.

OK. Looks like the Linksys range extender will do WPA when using with
WRT54G. From a Newegg customer review:

WPA and the WRE54G, May 27, 2008
By S. Mcneill (Northern Virgina) - See all my reviews
OK this is how I setup the Range Expander:

1. Connected my laptop directly to my Linksys WRT54G router via CAT5.
2. Plugged in the WRE54G extender into the wall and hit the reset
button.
3. Log into the WRT54G router, 192.168.1.1, and set wireless security
to "disable".
4. Unplugged the WRE54G extender from the wall.
5. Connected the WRE54G extender to the WRT54G router via CAT5.
6. Plugged the WRE54G extender into the wall.
7. Hit the Auto Configuration button on the WRE54G extender; should
get two blue lights.
8. Log into the WRE54G extender, 192.168.1.240, (password: admin).
9. From the WRE54G configuration menu select "Edit Security Settings".
10. Select "pre-shared WPA".
11. Create a WPA key; then highlight and copy. Change the group
renewal key to 3600.
12. Hit save settings. Should get settings saved reboot required in
your browser.
13. Log into the WRT54G router and select wireless security and change
the security settings to WPA, paste the WPA key you created in the
extender into the router field. Ensure the group renewal key is set to
3600 and save settings.
14. Should have two blue lights on the extender. Unplug and move to
the desired final location.

Thanks again for all the *great* help.

>I have seen a real improvement over stock antenna. A 2dbi omni with a
>windsurfer works better than a 7 dbi omni on a Linksys I have setup.
>When I put the windsurfer on the 7 dbi, it helps a bit too, but the
>2dbi is better for the reflector, I think. I only used one antenna
>and disconnected the other when using the reflector.

Why does one antenna work better than two? If you remove one, does it
matter which one?

>The slab is bad because you need the signal to get thru below it? I
>don't see how it would hurt if not trying to pass through. For side
>to side it should be fine. Only you really understand the layout, but
>it seems a waste to have the WAP upstairs. Again, tilting the antenna
>side towards intended hot spot helps.

No, the slab isn't bad in and of itself. It's bad because the room
must have been added, at some point, to what was the ouside of the
house. The walls of the room are more like exterior than interior
walls. I've tried it and the signal doesn't really get outside the
room to the rest of the interior of the house - but does do well
enough on the porch just external to that room.

>These range expanders have reliability issues as you saw before.
>Also, can you get it to do WPA (which you should be using) security?
>From experience and advice from experts here, I'd avoid them, but if I
>had one, what the heck. It does seem to work.

I plan to get rid of the range expander as soon as I get my Provantage
order (see below).

>Actually as a repeater, or as a wired AP? Again, wire it if at all
>possible. Really.

Sorry ... yes, as a second wired AP. I put the main WAP on the second
floor on channel 11 and the Netgear (for now) on channel 1. The only
function of the second WAP is to get signal to the porch, which it
does well. Because of the physical boundaries of the room and the wide
separation of channels, I think I'm OK with 2 wireless networks.
Although I'm going to ask about that in a few paragraphs.

>Again, it's hard to second guess you from here, but IF I was starting
>from scratch, I'd probably do it this way:
>
>Router/WAP in both ends of first floor (different channels) connected
>to main router by wire. Forget wireless upstairs. Forget simple
>repeaters.

Not an option ... the "slab room" is the only wired room on the first
floor. My wife will kill me I mention wiring another. One WAP has to
be upstairs.
>
>For the room without wiring, I'd either run powerline networking
>(Netgear XE103 is fast and reliable) from the router to it that room
>and then go into the WAP from there, or...

I tried it and it didn't work well - the speed was awful and I blamed
the old wiring in the house.

>Your Linksys WAP or Netgear router might take DD-WRT and could be the
>client bridge side of the "two radio repeater". Check here:
>http://tinyurl.com/2a6y96 Find links from there to see all the great
>setup advice on their wiki. Ask here for advice on making a repeater
>from two wireless devices.

I've spent some time the past couple of days reading the DD-WRT wiki
and plan to flash the firmware of a WRT54GL (see below).

>Don't particularly recommend Linksys (not bad choice though) and
>nothing in simple repeater mode. Again, just talking for fun (you
>have it working !), if best range is your priority, then the Buffalo
>Whr-HP-G54 is probably the winner for under $100. They are no longer
>legally sold in US, but find one on Ebay. Used to be $60, but
>scarcity raised the prices. It beats out the Linksys L, and also
>takes DD-WRT.

OK ... I ordered 2 WRT54GL's from Provantage. I'm going to replace
both the WAP54G and the Netgear WPN824 with them. I love Newegg, but
have had great experience with Provantage as well. They also have a
distribution site in Harrisburg, PA, about 10 miles from me. I get
stuff the next day when I pay ground shipping.

I ordered Linksys because I'm comfortable with the interface and I'm
confused enough already.

So, I will have 2 WRT54GL's. I plan to flash one ar both with DD-WRT.
I have 4 7dB antennae that I can use (or not). One WRT54GL *has* to go
in a second floor room wired to a Linksys BEFSR81 router. The second,
I believe, has to go in the only room on the first floor wired to that
same router, the "slab room" next to the porch. Ideally, I'd like to
have only one wireless network (so I don't have to switch when I go
out on the porch), but can live just fine with 2.

What do you suggest for the two WRT54GL's relative to (1) flashing
with DD-WRT, (2) type/number of antennae, (3) relationship to each
other, ie, none (2 networks) or a repeater. I plan to eliminate the
range expander from the equation.

Once again, thank you very, very much for your time and patience.