"Microsoft Location Finder" - how is it supposed to work ?

I have read a bunch on the net about Microsoft Location Finder
including Microsoft's "explanation" of how it works.

It determines your location, when it can, by accesing a uSoft
database of WiFI MAC addresses.

Is the database built into Microsoft Location Finder ?
I don't think so.

So what does it do, hijack someone's home WiFi for a few seconds
to interrogate the uSoft database and return the results ? That
doesn't sound kosher and obviously I'm not using my own wireless LAN
when I'm asking the question "where am I"

TIA to anyone who can answer this or point me to a discussion /
explanation of what's going on.

For others who are learning about Microsoft Location Finder from this
post, here are some links:

http://networks.silicon.com/mobile/0...9150711,00.htm

Go to http://virtualearth.msn.com/ and click on the "Microsoft
Location Finder" in the "Welcome" bar on the left.

Cheers, QE

QuienEs <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> It determines your location, when it can, by accesing a uSoft
> database of WiFI MAC addresses.

> Is the database built into Microsoft Location Finder ?

No. You must have a usable internet connection. The Location Finder looks
at the "available wireless networks" to see if any of them are in its
database. You don't need to be connected through one of them.

There is a hotspot near me. I don't connect to it. When I am connected to
my wired LAN, Microsoft Location Finder locates my position. If I disable
the WiFi, my indicated location changes to my ISP's location.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Many thanks Clarence, for your quick and good explanation. I was
hoping that MLF would be more than a "toy" and now understand why
uSoft had me confused, it's because they never said something like:

"If you are connected to the Internet and wonder where you are this
free program is what you need" :-)

Cheers, QE in NJ
======================

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 03:20:29 +0000 (UTC),
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

|QuienEs <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
|> It determines your location, when it can, by accesing a uSoft
|> database of WiFI MAC addresses.
|
|> Is the database built into Microsoft Location Finder ?
|
|No. You must have a usable internet connection. The Location Finder
looks
|at the "available wireless networks" to see if any of them are in its
|database. You don't need to be connected through one of them.
|
|There is a hotspot near me. I don't connect to it. When I am
connected to
|my wired LAN, Microsoft Location Finder locates my position. If I
disable
|the WiFi, my indicated location changes to my ISP's location.
|
|--
|---
|Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:44:18 -0400, QuienEs
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Many thanks Clarence, for your quick and good explanation. I was
>hoping that MLF would be more than a "toy" and now understand why
>uSoft had me confused, it's because they never said something like:
>
>"If you are connected to the Internet and wonder where you are this
>free program is what you need" :-)

This is the same thing from Microsoft:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en
with a few words of explanation. Note that it's specifically for
"Wi-Fi enabled laptops", etc.

You might also find these of interest:
http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm
http://www.networldmap.com/TryIt.htm
which apparently use whois to guess the location.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In alt.internet.wireless Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:44:18 -0400, QuienEs wrote:
>>Many thanks Clarence, for your quick and good explanation. I was

> This is the same thing from Microsoft:

> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en

It doesn't blatantly say
We need to connect to the internet, not necessarily via a wifi connection,
to look up the addresses of WiFi hotspots that appear in "Available
Networks" even if you cannot connect to them.

> You might also find these of interest:
> http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm

That is more fully featured than the fallback option at VirtualEarth, which
only uses your IP, doesn't allow you to key in something else, and it has
more verbiage.

Right now, virtualearth brings up a map centered on the same point, and
tells me that it has used my IP address, but it doesn't specify what city
I'm in, like IpLocator does. Of course, when the locator finds a wifi spot
in it's database, it can be spot on. It even makes adjustments if it finds
multiple hotspots. I can't tell if just averages them, or does something
finer than that.

I wish I could contribute some locations to the database.

> http://www.networldmap.com/TryIt.htm
> which apparently use whois to guess the location.

It uses GeoBytes. Says so. Brings up the same map.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:45:58 +0000 (UTC),
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en
>It doesn't blatantly say
>We need to connect to the internet, not necessarily via a wifi connection,
>to look up the addresses of WiFi hotspots that appear in "Available
>Networks" even if you cannot connect to them.

Seriously, did you think that Microsoft would admit that it was
snooping on your available connections? What I'm wondering is if they
add new SSID's and MAC's to their database every time you use MS
Location Finder. Digging through the privacy statement at:
http://www.microsoft.com/mappoint/we...e/privacy.mspx
Yep. They collect connection info and add it to their database.

Obviously, they're pushing for location based services:
"Location-related information in the request or derived from
the request, such as latitude and longitude, is used for
calculating payments to our data vendors so that we may operate
the service."

>> You might also find these of interest:
>> http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm
>
>That is more fully featured than the fallback option at VirtualEarth, which
>only uses your IP, doesn't allow you to key in something else, and it has
>more verbiage.

Generally more useful also. Methinks the MS incantation is just a
front for MS pushing location based services on their web pages.
"Click here for a free token entitling you to a 0.1% discount
on a pizza next door after you're done guzzling your coffee".
Yech.

>Right now, virtualearth brings up a map centered on the same point, and
>tells me that it has used my IP address, but it doesn't specify what city
>I'm in, like IpLocator does. Of course, when the locator finds a wifi spot
>in it's database, it can be spot on. It even makes adjustments if it finds
>multiple hotspots. I can't tell if just averages them, or does something
>finer than that.

I tried it in my favorite parking lot, that's within sight of 3 free
coffee shop hot spots. If I connect to any one of the three. It says
I'm inside. If I don't connect to any of them, it seems to use the
last one that I was connected. I didn't seen any fancy geometry.

>I wish I could contribute some locations to the database.

I'm not sure that would be a good idea. Too many people contributing
false locations to confuse the internet police.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:11:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I tried it in my favorite parking lot, that's within sight of 3 free
>coffee shop hot spots. If I connect to any one of the three. It says
>I'm inside. If I don't connect to any of them, it seems to use the
>last one that I was connected. I didn't seen any fancy geometry.

Incidentally, if there's any elaborate cartography under the MS
Location Finder, it's well buried considering the large number of
mapping and algorithm "Service Credits" cited at the bottom of:
http://www.microsoft.com/mappoint/webservice/terms.mspx

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Yesterday, when I said, in an intentionally mocking tone:

"If you are connected to the Internet and wonder where you are this
free program is what you need" :-)

I was looking forward to additional posts where denizens of this ng
might expose my lack of imagination by giving examples of the
application's usefulness.

It didn't occur to me that they might be collecting information from
users to enhance *their* database - but that insight at least provides
an understandable reason for its existence - thanks.

And thanks for all the other responses, links etc - it's been fun and
educational reading them.

BTW, Microsoft Location Finder is integrated into the new Microsoft
Streets and Trips 2006, just released. I have always found SnT to be
great value for the money.

Cheers, QE in NJ

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:31:22 GMT, QuienEs
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Yesterday, when I said, in an intentionally mocking tone:
>
>"If you are connected to the Internet and wonder where you are this
>free program is what you need" :-)
>
>I was looking forward to additional posts where denizens of this ng
>might expose my lack of imagination by giving examples of the
>application's usefulness.
>
>It didn't occur to me that they might be collecting information from
>users to enhance *their* database - but that insight at least provides
>an understandable reason for its existence - thanks.

Please note that I'm guessing that they add additional access points
as the system is used. I don't know this for a fact and might
actually prove to be wrong if MS finds the privacy issues more
important than the possible revenue. As far as I can determine, the
primary purpose is to provide location based services on their web
pages, not data collection for the mythical internet police.

For applications, you might want to look at the various web and email
services offered by GeoBytes:
http://www.geobytes.com
Personalized web page content based on location. Spam filtering by
location. At the very least, it would be nice to have the local
weather appear on my favorite web pages instead of having to type in
my zip code.

>And thanks for all the other responses, links etc - it's been fun and
>educational reading them.
>
>BTW, Microsoft Location Finder is integrated into the new Microsoft
>Streets and Trips 2006, just released. I have always found SnT to be
>great value for the money.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Seriously, did you think that Microsoft would admit that it was
> snooping on your available connections?

Snooping? You're asking them to look up your location.

> What I'm wondering is if they
> add new SSID's and MAC's to their database every time you use MS
> Location Finder. Digging through the privacy statement at:
> http://www.microsoft.com/mappoint/we...e/privacy.mspx
> Yep. They collect connection info and add it to their database.

Which SSIDs and MACs? The requestor? Kind of like double-click does with
cookies, but difficult to circumvent?

There is an existing set of databases that tries to guess at your location
by analyzing what people search for when thay are connected to a particular
IP address. The presumption is that the zip codes searched, or provided in
certain online forms, will often be local to the IP address that they are
using.

> Obviously, they're pushing for location based services:

For crying out loud Jeff, what do you think they're doing with it?
That intent is plastered all over the pages. They go to great lengths to
tell you how much better Virtual Earth is than Google Maps, because it
follows you down the road, without you having to figure out where you are
and doing a new zip code based lookup.

>> http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm
> Generally more useful also.

Not at all. If it is accurate, it is only accurate to within tens of
miles. If it is misleading, it's off by thousands of miles, depending on
your choice of ISP.

> Methinks the MS incantation is just a
> front for MS pushing location based services on their web pages.

Somebody has to pay for it. It becomes useful and ubiquitous if everyone
shows up on the local listings, which Google Maps tries to do for free. MS
misses the mark with Streets & Trips, which doesn't include enough
businesses. If you can have everybody listed for free, and allow some of
them to pay with clickthroughs, life is good.

> I tried it in my favorite parking lot, that's within sight of 3 free
> coffee shop hot spots. If I connect to any one of the three. It says
> I'm inside. If I don't connect to any of them, it seems to use the
> last one that I was connected. I didn't seen any fancy geometry.

Some folks suggested geometry, but that might be guessing. Not sure the
extra granularity would be worth the level of sophistication required, if
all you are trying to do is locate nearby retail establishments.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5